Bottle: What's this and why won't it come off?

[BasementArtie]

So I cracked one of my Dubbels after 2 weeks carbonation to see how they're getting on.

And after rinsing and shaking right after, oxi cleaner soak with brush inside after even attempted a dishwasher I can't get these marks off. It's like cloudy white specs but in rings then goes up with gaps between then under the trappistenbier on the westmalle bottles it's like running down vertically (see photos). Then when looking inside and shining a light the bottom is completely clouded.

It may be worth noting I live in a very hard water area and when I used oxi cleaners to soak bottles they come out incredibly cloudy anyway with a coating of what I believe to be sodium carbonate.

Thanks for your help in advance.

 

[Miraculix]

Try an acid rinse with vinegar essence for example. I had this stuff from bleach and also from oxiclean, only way to remove it was with acidic solution.

 

[BasementArtie]

If tried using chemisan soak a UK alternative to starsan however that also didn't budge it. What is it? Dead yeast?

 

[Miraculix]

If tried using chemisan soak a UK alternative to starsan however that also didn't budge it. What is it? Dead yeast?

Did you try vinegar solution?

 

[BasementArtie]

Did you try vinegar solution?

That'll be the next step. It's currently undergoing another soak in oxicleaner.

 

[Miraculix]

That'll be the next step. It's currently undergoing another soak in oxicleaner.

That might make is worse. We will see!

 

[RufusBrewer]

I had issues with Oxyclean, especially with extended soaking. As others have warned, it might make the situation worse.

Good news is your problem is glass, so you can try all kinds of solutions. Acids, base, etc. Just make sure you are extra diligent with rinsing.

 

[BasementArtie]

I had issues with Oxyclean, especially with extended soaking. As others have warned, it might make the situation worse.

Good news is your problem is glass, so you can try all kinds of solutions. Acids, base, etc. Just make sure you are extra diligent with rinsing.

What's the worse case scenario if it doesn't come off as it's just clouding I no longer think it's yeast. Can I still bottle using these bottles?

 

[Miraculix]

If acid doesn't solve it, I would use the bottles if there are no others to be used instead.

 

[IslandLizard]

It may be worth noting I live in a very hard water area and when I used oxi cleaners to soak bottles they come out incredibly cloudy anyway with a coating of what I believe to be sodium carbonate.

That points to mineral deposits. A soak in some vinegar may clear that up for you. Use a good bottle brush too with some Oxiclean, friction does wonders removing spots and grime that simply soaking doesn't or not as quickly. Just don't use the bottle brush in vinegar, or acids in general, such as Starsan.

No, those spots are definitely NOT Sodium Carbonate, as that's highly dissolvable in water. Common name is Washing Soda.

 

[doogie]

Just don't use the bottle brush in vinegar, or acids in general, such as Starsan.

Why not?

 

[BasementArtie]

I must just live in a super hard water area. Vinegar solution and two soaks in an acid based santiser, brushed again and still misty

Calcium (mg/l)
114
Calcium Carbonate (mg/l)
300
Calcium Carbonate (mmol/l)
3.00
Degrees Clark (UK)
20.99
Degrees German (dH)
16.79
Degrees French (f)
29.99

 

[IslandLizard]

Why not?

Acids will attack (dissolve) the galvanization (usually zinc) of the metal wire. You can smell it right away.

 

[Miraculix]

I must just live in a super hard water area. Vinegar solution and two soaks in an acid based santiser, brushed again and still misty

Calcium (mg/l)
114
Calcium Carbonate (mg/l)
300
Calcium Carbonate (mmol/l)
3.00
Degrees Clark (UK)
20.99
Degrees German (dH)
16.79
Degrees French (f)
29.99

Maybe it's the glass being corroded. Wouldn't be an issue, just doesn't look so pretty anymore.

 

[BasementArtie]

Maybe it's the glass being corroded. Wouldn't be an issue, just doesn't look so pretty anymore.

At least I know they're clean

 

[cire]

Could be beerstone, calcium oxalate, and not easily removed once it dries on a surface.

 

[IslandLizard]

Vinegar solution and two soaks in an acid based santiser, brushed again and still misty

How long were those soaks?

BTW, are you brewing with that (hard) water?

 

[BasementArtie]

Could be beerstone, calcium oxalate, and not easily removed once it dries on a surface.

Can beer stone that set on the bottle appear after one cycle of washing? Also does it effect the beer flavour or profile in anyway if I was to bottle using these bottles?

How long were those soaks?

BTW, are you brewing with that (hard) water?

So the first soak in Oxicleaner was 30mins and it was rinsed. Then a 30min soak in Chemisan. Back to Oxicleaner for 4 hours then chemisan for 2 hours. Then to vinegar for 1 hour.

I do brew darker beers with this water then adjust the minerals etc however for lighter beens I've been buying bottled water. But for this beer these bottle have only been used by westmalle before and I used Tesco ashbeck water not mine. So the only difference with these bottles is they've been cleaned by my hard water twice now. Before bottling and after bottling.

 

[BasementArtie]

Different bottle same issue....but on the outside of the bottle. It's like misty hazy film and it feels super dry and abrasive.

I haven't used these bottles yet, I drank a beligan blonde out of it then cleaned and santised it (probably 4 times now). Can beer stone come on this quickly?

 

[cire]

It's now looking like a problem with your cleaning and your water.

 

[IslandLizard]

So the first soak in Oxicleaner was 30mins and it was rinsed. Then a 30min soak in Chemisan. Back to Oxicleaner for 4 hours then chemisan for 2 hours. Then to vinegar for 1 hour.

I would soak in acid (vinegar) for at least a day. How strong is that vinegar? Straight out of the bottle/jug it's usually 5%.

Different bottle same issue....but on the outside of the bottle. It's like misty hazy film and it feels super dry and abrasive.

The outside is the easiest to clean, use a non-scratching abrasive pad, and a dab of Soft Scrub. In a pinch you can use a little Comet or Bar Keepers Friend (BKF).

 

[BasementArtie]

I would soak in acid (vinegar) for at least a day. How strong is that vinegar? Straight out of the bottle/jug it's usually 5%.


The outside is the easiest to clean, use a non-scratching abrasive pad, and a dab of Soft Scrub. In a pinch you can use a little Comet or Bar Keepers Friend (BKF).

I have no idea what those things are being in the UK.

However my main concern is this being an ongoing issue and if the outside of the bottle reflect the inside then this cannot be good right?

Yeah I actually used white vinegar 1 part to 5 parts water in the bottle.

Do you think if I keep bottle cleaning with oxiclean rinsing them sanitising before bottling then this will be okay or do I have to go through the rigmarole of this with every bottle every batch?

 

[Jayjay1976]

I had this issue when I was still bottling, at one point I got rid of my entire stock and started building up again from zero. I built an automatic bottle washer with a pond pump and that really helped, but eventually I got so tired of inspecting bottles I got into kegging.

 

[BasementArtie]

I had this issue when I was still bottling, at one point I got rid of my entire stock and started building up again from zero. I built an automatic bottle washer with a pond pump and that really helped, but eventually I got so tired of inspecting bottles I got into kegging.

Do you remember what the issue was for you? Hard water, beer stone, unclean bottles, hardened yeast?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Do you remember what the issue was for you? Hard water, beer stone, unclean bottles, hardened yeast?

I can rule out all of those except beer stone, so that was my official conclusion. Info I've seen elsewhere on this site suggested strong bleach soak then blasting it with PBW so that's where I ended up, it worked but was a chore.

There is a product specifically made to remove beer stone, I'd suggest you do some research on that. If you want to go that route but you can't find a source for it on that side of the pond, send me a PM and I'd be happy to help get some to you.

You know I really hated bottling when that's all I had available to me, but now a couple of years into kegging I kinda miss the spontaneous ease of just grabbing a few bottles to take along somewhere, and filling a growler or bottles from the tap is a real chore.

Also, slightly off topic, I'm curious about your capping situation. Do you use one of those red Italian wing cappers? Or do you have a bench capper? I burned through a couple of wing cappers and ended up looking for a bench capper. Turns out that solid cast iron cappers from the 1930's are not too hard to come by. I picked one up for a few bucks and it is amazing. I spent maybe an hour or two with a wire brush and some steel wool and it works like new. If that is something you'd be interested in I can share more detailed info and even help you acquire one. Here is a pic of mine, it truly is one of my most prized brew-related possessions. It's also one of the most manly things a manly man can own. Since I got it my mustache has improved markedly.

 

[Miraculix]

I can rule out all of those except beer stone, so that was my official conclusion. Info I've seen elsewhere on this site suggested strong bleach soak then blasting it with PBW so that's where I ended up, it worked but was a chore.

There is a product specifically made to remove beer stone, I'd suggest you do some research on that. If you want to go that route but you can't find a source for it on that side of the pond, send me a PM and I'd be happy to help get some to you.

You know I really hated bottling when that's all I had available to me, but now a couple of years into kegging I kinda miss the spontaneous ease of just grabbing a few bottles to take along somewhere, and filling a growler or bottles from the tap is a real chore.

Also, slightly off topic, I'm curious about your capping situation. Do you use one of those red Italian wing cappers? Or do you have a bench capper? I burned through a couple of wing cappers and ended up looking for a bench capper. Turns out that solid cast iron cappers from the 1930's are not too hard to come by. I picked one up for a few bucks and it is amazing. I spent maybe an hour or two with a wire brush and some steel wool and it works like new. If that is something you'd be interested in I can share more detailed info and even help you acquire one. Here is a pic of mine, it truly is one of my most prized brew-related possessions. It's also one of the most manly things a manly man can own. Since I got it my mustache has improved markedly.

View attachment 753099View attachment 753100

I salute to your masculinity, Sir. May I also have the possibility to acquire such a marvelous piece of art in the near future.

Already the thought of it made my beard more voluminous, while my chest muscles and my biceps increased in volume as well.

 

[BasementArtie]

I can rule out all of those except beer stone, so that was my official conclusion. Info I've seen elsewhere on this site suggested strong bleach soak then blasting it with PBW so that's where I ended up, it worked but was a chore.

There is a product specifically made to remove beer stone, I'd suggest you do some research on that. If you want to go that route but you can't find a source for it on that side of the pond, send me a PM and I'd be happy to help get some to you.

You know I really hated bottling when that's all I had available to me, but now a couple of years into kegging I kinda miss the spontaneous ease of just grabbing a few bottles to take along somewhere, and filling a growler or bottles from the tap is a real chore.

Also, slightly off topic, I'm curious about your capping situation. Do you use one of those red Italian wing cappers? Or do you have a bench capper? I burned through a couple of wing cappers and ended up looking for a bench capper. Turns out that solid cast iron cappers from the 1930's are not too hard to come by. I picked one up for a few bucks and it is amazing. I spent maybe an hour or two with a wire brush and some steel wool and it works like new. If that is something you'd be interested in I can share more detailed info and even help you acquire one. Here is a pic of mine, it truly is one of my most prized brew-related possessions. It's also one of the most manly things a manly man can own. Since I got it my mustache has improved markedly.

View attachment 753099View attachment 753100

I have a much less manly bench capper! That thing is a beauty and puts hairs on your chest even just looking at it.

I on the other hand enjoy bottling and like you say having those handy bottles for friends and just to throw them in the fridge when you want.

Surely though beer stone can't come on after one cleaning cycle? What was your bleach solution?

 

[cire]

You're in UK. If your water is from any of the major supply companies, you can be sure it is good for brewing (after suitable treatment) and cleaning and I'll therefore suggest oxiclean is the problem. It does remove stains, but can also leave a deposit.

Get a decent bottle brush (maybe from Wilko's if your Oxiclean was from there) and give you bottles a good clean with lots of warm water and the brush immediately they are emptied. If a deposit is left after that, examine the previous stage to see what can be done to avoid getting that matter into the bottles in the first place.

For sanitation, half fill a 5 gallon plastic FV with tapwater and mix in half a cup of Thin Bleach from ASDA (38P for 2 litres). That will take 10 to 12 clean bottles a time, left for 20 minutes then fully rinsed under clean running tapwater before being filled.

 

[doogie]

Also, slightly off topic, I'm curious about your capping situation. Do you use one of those red Italian wing cappers? Or do you have a bench capper? I burned through a couple of wing cappers and ended up looking for a bench capper. Turns out that solid cast iron cappers from the 1930's are not too hard to come by. I picked one up for a few bucks and it is amazing. I spent maybe an hour or two with a wire brush and some steel wool and it works like new. If that is something you'd be interested in I can share more detailed info and even help you acquire one. Here is a pic of mine, it truly is one of my most prized brew-related possessions. It's also one of the most manly things a manly man can own. Since I got it my mustache has improved markedly.

View attachment 753099View attachment 753100

My Everedy isn't quite so beefy.

My grandparents gave it to me. They said it was for root beer.

 

[Brewdog80]

BLC, beer line cleaner used for cleaning lines and soaking metal components.. I've an old bottle I use. Potassium Hydroxide. no idea of strength, but this uses 2/5 ounce per quart warm to hot and run through lines 10 to 16 minutes to remove beer stone. soak instructions for metal were just a few minutes.. instructions say it can be make stronger. rinse really well.

 

[NightFlight]

I must just live in a super hard water area. Vinegar solution and two soaks in an acid based santiser, brushed again and still misty

Calcium (mg/l)
114
Calcium Carbonate (mg/l)
300
Calcium Carbonate (mmol/l)
3.00
Degrees Clark (UK)
20.99
Degrees German (dH)
16.79
Degrees French (f)
29.99

Wow. I know dH from fish keeping, that is liquid rock coming out of your tap. My tap water is just 4 dKH and I'm always trying to bring it up using limestone in my tank. In planted aquaria, we use Co2 injection, which needs hardness to bind it and increase PH buffering.

I find it interesting that my hobbies have crossed over. I'm curious to know how bringing up hardness in beer will affect taste like mineral water, and carbonation retention. I have yet to get a full analysis of my tap water so I can start adding salts properly - other than what I know from my aquarium test kits: dKH, GH, PH, Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrites, Calcium and Phosphate.

 

[NightFlight]

Not that I bottle any more,... but when I did I built a brush using a plastic rod, drilled holes through at the end and pulled cut strips of scouring pad through. Then I just cranked down said rod into the chuck of the drill, put it into top gear and got those damn bottles clean. All swing top - people sell the Grolsch ones used on kijiji or whatever local bartering website is called. Then when your done with bottling you can resell them. New brewers are always snapping them up. Or you can order Grolsch Premium from your local beer supplier and sell them to cut the cost of your store bought (sacrilege I know... ) drinking in half or less.

https://www.lcbo.com/webapp/wcs/sto...er-16023071054/grolsch-premium-pilsner-217331

 

[Jayjay1976]

My Everedy isn't quite so beefy.View attachment 753112
My grandparents gave it to me. They said it was for root beer.

Hey the riveted steel ones are great too. You should polish it up and give it a coat of boiled linseed oil, these things work really well. I glued two stacked rubber washers up into the bell, so that it releases the bottle automatically after crimping. When I use it I place a beer coaster on the base plate to act as a cushion, still looking for a piece of rubber to glue down.

These things were originally sold as rootbeer cappers during prohibition, I wonder how much actual rootbeer they produced? I kind of enjoy refurbishing stuff like this and putting it back into service. Check out the "hand tool rescue" channel on YouTube, fun to watch old tools being resurrected.

 

[BasementArtie]

So an update.

I I'm pretty certain it's coming from my no rinse sanitiser the UK equivalent of Stansan, Chemsan (which say it's supposed to be good for hard and soft water a like)

So I soaked my westmalle bottles which I was going to use for my Tripel in Chemsan and it's left the exact same white hard powder chalky powder on my plastic bucket as it previously did on my bottles. It doesn't rub off but if I give it a little scratch it comes off in a powder.