Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

[couchsending]

2nd attempt with Philly Sour is under way. Measured it yesterday and was at 3.28ph but hadn’t dropped a ton in gravity after 3 days. I mashed incredibly low for a long time but didn’t add any dextrose. Only pitched in packet but into a 1.044 wort which should be enough. I swear I still get this weird sweet tobacco like note from it. It’s not bad but definitely stronger than any apple or stone fruit. Fermenting it at 72 controlled.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

I posted this as it's own thread but I wanted to post it here too cause I hope it will bring me more answers or shared experiences.

So I'm making a frambroise using Philly Sour yeast and I got one of these raspberry flavor things that amoretti makes. It's an 8 oz (weight) bottle like here

My understanding is that I would add this at bottling (am I wrong?), and it says this thing has 4 grams of sugar...so I'm wondering should I just use this in place of my priming sugar? Or should I still add my priming sugar? Will this thing have too much sugar if I add the whole bottle to a five gallon batch and cause bottle bombs? Should I just add after primary fermentation; let it ferment; then rack and bottle with priming sugar?

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Anyone tried something other than a Berliner or Gose style with Philly Sour? While I am very happy with how my Gose turned out (keg is going quick), I am wondering how well it will do with, say, a Flanders Red or something similarly more malty style? I may mash lower next iteration to help the FG get lower too.

Might also add Brett on the backside, after the primary is done, to further add sour complexity and lower the FG even further. Would not be a full Lambic/Flanders Red, but might be more complex than just the lactic acid contribution alone.

I made a Rodenbach Grand Cru clone that I fermented with Philly Sour, Brettanomyces Lambicus, and Lallemand Abbaye. I let the Philly do it's thing for three days then added the brett and Abbaye yeast. I also added dextrose and lactose in the boil. Turned out very stone fruit and tangy. Not overly sour but definitely enough to please a sour fan. Definitely gave it more character. Helped it move past those red apple flavors and into more pineapple meets peach and berries territory. Super reccomend mixed fermentations with Philly sour and brett!

 

[beervoid]

I made a Rodenbach Grand Cru clone that I fermented with Philly Sour, Brettanomyces Lambicus, and Lallemand Abbaye. I let the Philly do it's thing for three days then added the brett and Abbaye yeast. I also added dextrose and lactose in the boil. Turned out very stone fruit and tangy. Not overly sour but definitely enough to please a sour fan. Definitely gave it more character. Helped it move past those red apple flavors and into more pineapple meets peach and berries territory. Super reccomend mixed fermentations with Philly sour and brett!

Im interested to test this out. Did the ph get at where you wanted it at day 3? Or are you counting on some sourness from Brett? How much brett character did you get? How much brett did you pitch?
I read pitching more brett will aid in getting more character sooner.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Im interested to test this out. Did the ph get at where you wanted it at day 3? Or are you counting on some sourness from Brett? How much brett character did you get? How much brett did you pitch?
I read pitching more brett will aid in getting more character sooner.

From the two previous times I've used the yeast, it seems like pH stops dropping by day three, and I didn't want the other yeasts competing with the philly until then. I'm at about three weeks of bottle conditioning and the brett flavor is present with some nice little barnyard notes in the aroma but the taste definitely is dominated by lactic acid. The red apple flavor is gone and is replaced with a more tangy citrus with pineapple and stone fruit. Although this change in flavor profile I got from the yeast could also be because of the dextrose or lactose I added to the boil or even cause of the Abbaye yeast. Because of the lactose I've added to the beer I'm interested to see how the brett flavor changes as it breaks down the lactose Sugars. I pitched one vial of white labs Brettanomyces Lambicus.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Im interested to test this out. Did the ph get at where you wanted it at day 3? Or are you counting on some sourness from Brett? How much brett character did you get? How much brett did you pitch?
I read pitching more brett will aid in getting more character sooner.

It's definitely one I'm going to let a case sit hidden for six months or so to see how the brett flavor changes.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

From the two previous times I've used the yeast, it seems like pH stops dropping by day three, and I didn't want the other yeasts competing with the philly until then. I'm at about three weeks of bottle conditioning and the brett flavor is present with some nice little barnyard notes in the aroma but the taste definitely is dominated by lactic acid. The red apple flavor is gone and is replaced with a more tangy citrus with pineapple and stone fruit. Although this change in flavor profile I got from the yeast could also be because of the dextrose or lactose I added to the boil or even cause of the Abbaye yeast. Because of the lactose I've added to the beer I'm interested to see how the brett flavor changes as it breaks down the lactose Sugars. I pitched one vial of white labs Brettanomyces Lambicus.

How much lactose is in those bottles? Are you aware that by every 2 points in gravity dropped by the Brett you're getting a full volume of CO2?

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

How much lactose is in those bottles? Are you aware that by every 2 points in gravity dropped by the Brett you're getting a full volume of CO2?

The lactose was added during the boil, It was 8oz in an eight gallon batch. Not sure how much that is per bottle but I underused what I normally would for priming sugar just to be safe.

 

[Tyler B]

I posted this as it's own thread but I wanted to post it here too cause I hope it will bring me more answers or shared experiences.

So I'm making a frambroise using Philly Sour yeast and I got one of these raspberry flavor things that amoretti makes. It's an 8 oz (weight) bottle like here
View attachment 705321
My understanding is that I would add this at bottling (am I wrong?), and it says this thing has 4 grams of sugar...so I'm wondering should I just use this in place of my priming sugar? Or should I still add my priming sugar? Will this thing have too much sugar if I add the whole bottle to a five gallon batch and cause bottle bombs? Should I just add after primary fermentation; let it ferment; then rack and bottle with priming sugar?

If it was me, I'd add it near the end of primary, straight into the primary FV, and then give it another week or so to ferment out all of those sugars. Then, bottle (maybe threeish weeks after brew day) with priming sugar as usual. Otherwise you'd have to worry about calculating how much sugar was in the flavoring and how that would impact carbonation. Probably not as reliable. Also, is there seeds in that stuff? A little extra time in primary might help prevent seeds getting in to your finished beer. Just my thoughts.

 

[Tyler B]

I made a Rodenbach Grand Cru clone that I fermented with Philly Sour, Brettanomyces Lambicus, and Lallemand Abbaye. I let the Philly do it's thing for three days then added the brett and Abbaye yeast. I also added dextrose and lactose in the boil. Turned out very stone fruit and tangy. Not overly sour but definitely enough to please a sour fan. Definitely gave it more character. Helped it move past those red apple flavors and into more pineapple meets peach and berries territory. Super reccomend mixed fermentations with Philly sour and brett!

Have you tried straight Philly Sour? I got a surprising amount of pineapple on my last plain Philly Sour batch. The other half, which I added raspberries to, was very fruity and complex. Probably my favorite, honestly. Then, my first batch, which I added blueberries to, obviously tasted like berries . Finally, my most recent batch, which I repitched, was barnyard funky. Kinda Bretty and not really sour at all. I'm really impressed with the range of flavors I'm getting from this yeast.

 

[t1m1]

My batch is in primary since Monday afternoon. Still no airlock activity, I measured pH yesterday and it was 3.57 with nice, kind of tropical, taste.

Will check gravity at Saturday-Sunday...

 

[stealthfixr]

My second Philly Sour attempt in the Spike CF5 and attenuated to 80% so far, still chuggin on Day 5 since pitching. Changes I made after attempt #1:
- Rehydrated yeast (2 packets for 1.052 SG) and used GoFerm before pitching
- Oxygenated wort for about half the normal time (direct O2 via stone for 30 seconds)
- Added 1lb Candi sugar--PS likes simple sugars
- Will not add fruit until primary is near FG, but I will add 6lb Tart Cherry puree soon
- Still mainly Pilsen & wheat malt, but added 1lb oats and 4oz carapils for body
- Also fermented under slight pressure (~3psi) at 76F--have not tasted yet, but it kept going with that pressure fine so far
- I'll cold crash this (as I now have a glycol chiller) when FG is stable after fruit added and yeast collected, about 40F for about 2 weeks

I had a slight drop in gravity about 12 hours after pitching, which was *much* faster than PS attempt #1 with the same amount of yeast. While still a slow fermentor, this batch is well ahead of #1, and attenuating further.

Attempt #1 was such a house fav that the keg just didn't last very long. I am hoping attempt #2, called Cherry Pie, will be even better.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

If it was me, I'd add it near the end of primary, straight into the primary FV, and then give it another week or so to ferment out all of those sugars. Then, bottle (maybe threeish weeks after brew day) with priming sugar as usual. Otherwise you'd have to worry about calculating how much sugar was in the flavoring and how that would impact carbonation. Probably not as reliable. Also, is there seeds in that stuff? A little extra time in primary might help prevent seeds getting in to your finished beer. Just my thoughts.

No seeds, it's just a straight syrup extract type product. I'm going to add it after primary fermentation like you suggested and wait so I don't have to play too many guessing games with carbonation.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Have you tried straight Philly Sour? I got a surprising amount of pineapple on my last plain Philly Sour batch. The other half, which I added raspberries to, was very fruity and complex. Probably my favorite, honestly. Then, my first batch, which I added blueberries to, obviously tasted like berries . Finally, my most recent batch, which I repitched, was barnyard funky. Kinda Bretty and not really sour at all. I'm really impressed with the range of flavors I'm getting from this yeast.

Yeah I've done two previous batches with it, one was just straight pilsner malt and hallertau hops, it's all lactic apple and peach flavor. Honestly it tastes like adult apple juice. Than I made a golden lavender sour using some vienna malt along with the pilsner with saaz and lemondrop hops. Much more complex, very citrusy but still pretty forward apple and peach flavor.

I just did a biere de garde with the washed yeast from my Philly/brett/Abbaye batch. It's still bottle conditioning but gravity sample didn't taste sour and odds are the Abbaye yeast would have outcompeted the **** out of it anyway. Hoping the brett is still around in there and makes it more interesting as it sits in the bottle.

 

[Kenmoron]

Update on the repitched cake... As others have said, it wasn't sour. It didn't really work, at all. It was weirdly funky but didn't have any sort of tartness to it. Quite strange. We ended up adding lactic acid to it but it still wasn't nearly as sour as the two other times I've pitched dry yeast straight from the Lallemand pack (both 1 pack/5 gallons and 2 packs/5 gallons).

I'll likely try again and pitch at a higher rate. I'll be sure to report back on my experiences.

So interesting that time and time again I keep hearing people are unable to sour with a repitch.

I recently snagged some of The Yeast Bay’s Berkeley Sour Lachancea blend. I’m excited to try and repitch it as they said you should be able to and still get sour beer.

 

[marc1]

Making a 10 gallon batch, so I made a starter from 1 packet. I tasted the supernatant when dumping it before pitching, and wow! Very, very peachy, with some apple-ish aftertaste that had a very slight tang. I'm excited to see what it does in this batch.

And what it did was taste very, very plain. Mild apple-ish flavor. Big disappointment after how interesting the starter wort tasted. pH only dropped to 3.87. 48% Pils/48% wheat malt, 4% sugar. Started fermentation at 75, raised to 77 after 2 days when the gravity had dropped from 1.037 to 1.017. Finished at 1.007.

Pulled some off to keg, then added raspberry and blackberry pie filling. After a week, it was down to 1.005 and pH 3.8. Cold crashed and left it until kegging tonight. Tastes fruit wine-y. Better than the bland unfruited one, but nothing worth doing this way again.

Looks like fresh packets are needed. I might try 3 next time for a 12 gallon to fermenter low-ish OG batch.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

And what it did was taste very, very plain. Mild apple-ish flavor. Big disappointment after how interesting the starter wort tasted. pH only dropped to 3.87. 48% Pils/48% wheat malt, 4% sugar. Started fermentation at 75, raised to 77 after 2 days when the gravity had dropped from 1.037 to 1.017. Finished at 1.007.

Pulled some off to keg, then added raspberry and blackberry pie filling. After a week, it was down to 1.005 and pH 3.8. Cold crashed and left it until kegging tonight. Tastes fruit wine-y. Better than the bland unfruited one, but nothing worth doing this way again.

Looks like fresh packets are needed. I might try 3 next time for a 12 gallon to fermenter low-ish OG batch.

I could be wrong but I think your starter blew your batch. It seems like this yeast does its Sour thing then does more alcohol converting, and from repitches it seems to not be doing any lactic production. So I wonder if your starter made you pitch a yeast that was in the middle of or near the end of it's lactic production phase that it wasn't going to repeat once added to your full wort.

 

[Tyler B]

So interesting that time and time again I keep hearing people are unable to sour with a repitch.

I recently snagged some of The Yeast Bay’s Berkeley Sour Lachancea blend. I’m excited to try and repitch it as they said you should be able to and still get sour beer.

Yeah, I thought for sure mine wouldn't be like the others... Man, was I wrong. I would like to try again at a higher pitch rate, though. Maybe a whole cake for a batch.

Good luck with your next batch!

 

[marc1]

I could be wrong but I think your starter blew your batch. It seems like this yeast does its Sour thing then does more alcohol converting, and from repitches it seems to not be doing any lactic production. So I wonder if your starter made you pitch a yeast that was in the middle of or near the end of it's lactic production phase that it wasn't going to repeat once added to your full wort.

I completely agree that the starter blew it. Maybe they need very special culture conditions to grow out.

 

[stealthfixr]

My second Philly Sour attempt in the Spike CF5 and attenuated to 80% so far, still chuggin on Day 5 since pitching. Changes I made after attempt #1:
- Rehydrated yeast (2 packets for 1.052 SG) and used GoFerm before pitching
- Oxygenated wort for about half the normal time (direct O2 via stone for 30 seconds)
- Added 1lb Candi sugar--PS likes simple sugars
- Will not add fruit until primary is near FG, but I will add 6lb Tart Cherry puree soon
- Still mainly Pilsen & wheat malt, but added 1lb oats and 4oz carapils for body
- Also fermented under slight pressure (~3psi) at 76F--have not tasted yet, but it kept going with that pressure fine so far
- I'll cold crash this (as I now have a glycol chiller) when FG is stable after fruit added and yeast collected, about 40F for about 2 weeks

I had a slight drop in gravity about 12 hours after pitching, which was *much* faster than PS attempt #1 with the same amount of yeast. While still a slow fermentor, this batch is well ahead of #1, and attenuating further.

Attempt #1 was such a house fav that the keg just didn't last very long. I am hoping attempt #2, called Cherry Pie, will be even better.

Follow-up, FG reached at 1.009 and the pH shown below...it's definitely sour! Two cherry puree cans (6lb) left a faint cherry taste--may augment with Amoretti concentrate. Yeast isn't falling out very quickly, but I just cold crashed to 40F and should be good before kegging in 5 days. Other than sour taste, the flavor is very clean for a 76F fermented temp (pressurized effect?)...love this yeast. Very pleased with the changes from batch #1 and resulting FG and pH.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Which pitch rate do you think it's right for a 1 gallon batch? I'm thinking about adding the whole pack

 

[stealthfixr]

Which pitch rate do you think it's right for a 1 gallon batch? I'm thinking about adding the whole pack

You could check the Lallemand pitching rate calculator (under brewing tools), but I’d be inclined to pitch the whole packet and call it good.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

You could check the Lallemand pitching rate calculator (under brewing tools), but I’d be inclined to pitch the whole packet and call it good.

The calculator tells me to pitch less than other lallemand yeasts but for what's been shared here, it needs to be overpitched, right?

One more thing, does it attenuate a lot? I'm planning on staying at the 6% ABV mark

 

[Elric]

For one gallon you should be fine with a half pack.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

For one gallon you should be fine with a half pack.

Thanks! I'm planning on mashing high and short to try and have a beer with certain sweetness, should I add some simple sugars so the yeast has something to eat easily while souring?

 

[Elric]

If you plan to mash high would probably be best to add some simple sugars, I mashed low so I didn't feel I needed any.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

If you plan to mash high would probably be best to add some simple sugars, I mashed low so I didn't feel I needed any.

I'll be brewing a kind of hoppy sour so I think I need some sweetness to play with the sourness

So basically, I will be "controlling" how sour it will be with the amount of simple sugars?

 

[Shorza]

Well, 3 weeks later one of the bottles conditioning without any additional yeast is carbed up perfectly! Looks like I won't be using any conditioning yeast with Philly Sour in the future. There were rumors that it wouldn't do well. However, I haven't heard of anyone that has actually tried it. ....

Have you bottle conditioned another brew using this yeast yet?
I want to be absolutely sure that this yeast will carb up in the bottle before i attempt it.

 

[t1m1]

And, one from me, fresh raspberry sour.

Very tasty, so glad I have it on tap!

 

[Tyler B]

I'll be brewing a kind of hoppy sour so I think I need some sweetness to play with the sourness

So basically, I will be "controlling" how sour it will be with the amount of simple sugars?

Based on my experience, I'd add 1/2 of a pack (2 packs/5 gallons recommended = 0.4 packs). You could probably even get by with 1/4 of a pack so I wouldn't do a whole pack. Apparently, over pitching can result in less sourness, just like underpitchng.

Also, if you mash high for the body and residual sweetness, add 3% of the grain bill simple sugars to ensure it actually finishes sour. At least that's what I'd do. Follow up and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Smitty4263]

I am storing my Philly sour yeast in the fridge right now. Do I need to get it to room temperature before pitching or can I pitch right from the fridge?

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I am storing my Philly sour yeast in the fridge right now. Do I need to get it to room temperature before pitching or can I pitch right from the fridge?

What does it say in the package? I don't have mine yet, probably arriving monday, but I would treat it like the package says, if it says nothing, just do what usually works for you with dry yeast, I take it out 30 minutes before rehydration

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Have you bottle conditioned another brew using this yeast yet?
I want to be absolutely sure that this yeast will carb up in the bottle before i attempt it.

I've had no problem bottle conditioning with this yeast. I use 1/2 cup of table sugar per five gallons and they are plenty carbed, borderline champagne levels of carbonation from the bottles I capped last that go in the half full box where they fall over a couple times lol.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I've had no problem bottle conditioning with this yeast. I use 1/2 cup of table sugar per five gallons and they are plenty carbed, borderline champagne levels of carbonation from the bottles I capped last that go in the half full box where they fall over a couple times lol.

Did you noticed any more sourness? Or once it's done fermenting, doesn't create more acid when eating simple sugars?

 

[Elric]

Did you noticed any more sourness? Or once it's done fermenting, doesn't create more acid when eating simple sugars?

Souring only really seems to happen in the initial phase of fermentation. Is same reason most people report no to little sourness when the repitch this yeast.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Souring only really seems to happen in the initial phase of fermentation. Is same reason most people report no to little sourness when the repitch this yeast.

It makes sense, it seems is really pitch dependent so I guess when bottle conditioning, we are "underpitching"

 

[Kenmoron]

Have you bottle conditioned another brew using this yeast yet?
I want to be absolutely sure that this yeast will carb up in the bottle before i attempt it.

I’ve bottle conditioned other batches just fine. And in regards to the comment about additional souring, there isn’t any noticeable difference. I saw a drop in pH of 0.02 from bottle conditioning, but this is still likely within the realm of standard deviation.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Did you noticed any more sourness? Or once it's done fermenting, doesn't create more acid when eating simple sugars?

No, it does it's sour thing in the first few days than it seems like than that aspect stops. I'm on my fourth batch using this yeast (not counting the repitch I did), the batch where I added dextrose to the boil is the batch that turned out the "sourest" so to speak. I would never expect to get like a biting sour out of this stuff tho.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

No, it does it's sour thing in the first few days than it seems like than that aspect stops. I'm on my fourth batch using this yeast (not counting the repitch I did), the batch where I added dextrose to the boil is the batch that turned out the "sourest" so to speak. I would never expect to get like a biting sour out of this stuff tho.

Great to know, I will be mashing low and add quite a bit of dextrose to ensure low enough attenuation and sourness, I'm planning on doing a sour IPA so for the first batch I prefer to over attenuate and backsweeten with lactose if needed that ending up with a cloying beer

Then I will keep on experimenting and trying different things like hot mash and lots of dextrose or low mash no dextrose

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If anyone has enjoyed their experience of Philly Sour enough to want to play around with other Lachanceas, I've just noticed that TYB are now doing a Berkeley Hills blend of them in their Wild collection, WLP4663. Interesting some of their notes - adding 20% glucose to the grist pushes the profile from red apple to stone fruit and produces a bit more acid. Perhaps @Biobrewer can tell us more? Does Philly Sour do the same?

As an aside, good to see TYB expanding their collection of fun bugs, and moving some of their beta releases into the main lines produced at White Labs, which means we actually have a chance of finding them over here in the UK.