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Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

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1HW

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Thanks! Did you find anything that says that the formulation changed?
No, but it is pretty clear that it changed somewhere along the line because the slide deck from the webinar references Lallemand R&D pitch rates of 1.0 - 1.5 g/l. The technical sheet is pretty clear with respect to 0.5 -1.0 g/l. And they're even more explicit in referencing that their in-house yeast calculator should be used:

"Standard pitch rate calculators may result in overpitching. Visit our Pitch Rate Calculator optimized for dry yeast samples at www.lallemandbrewing.com"

It also makes sense from a sachet standpoint...one packet lines up with a typical 5-6 gal batch. Having said that, you could pitch at 1.0 g/l and still be in the recommended range. And 1 g/l satisfies the optimal pitch rate regardless of whether you're using the webinar data or the product recommendation. Of course, then you're paying twice the cost in yeast...

The difference may be that while it ferments great within that concentration range, you get more lactic acid and an ester profile towards stone fruit rather than apples at the higher, and less lactic and more apple flavor at the lower.

How was your sourness? Did you get more apple or stonefruit in your batch? If it works to produce them well at lower pitching rates in homebrew practice, that is great news!
Screen Shot 2020-09-23 at 1.34.04 PM.png

My understanding was that the taste profile shift from apple to stone fruit was related to the amount of glucose present in the wort (with full malt wort tending towards apple and increasing glucose concentrations pushing it towards stone fruit).

Our batch had more apple/cider flavor than stonefruit, but this was only noticeable after kegging, and then only for the first week or so on tap. I would not characterize ours as mouth-puckering sour. If that's the goal, I might pre-acidify the wort, or pitch toward the higher end of the recs.

We're perfectly happy with the sourness with a single sachet. If we did anything different the next go-around, it wouldn't be changing the pitch rate. Maybe a different fruit to sour, or maybe a small (< 1 lb) secondary addition of raspberries.
 
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Anyone else try fermenting a 5 gal batch using only one packet? The expected OG of my recipe is 1.050. I didn't realize I needed 2 when I ordered my supply and now cost/time till I would like to serve for a party is a factor. However, I don't want to waste what I have by underpitching and not getting a truly sour beer.
I used one packet for a 5 gallon patch and it worked out great! About 80% attenuation.
 
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Kabezullo

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Hi. I am doing a berliner weisse style on weekend. Does anyone aerate the wort before pitching Philly sour?

I have two 11.5 g packets... But reading the post maybe i Will try only with one.
 

Tyler B

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Brewing my second batch with Philly Sour tomorrow. First time around I used 2 sachets in a 5 gallon batch. Tomorrow I'll try 1 sachet/5 gallons pitch rate and then report back with tasting notes when it's ready.
 

Tyler B

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Hi. I am doing a berliner weisse style on weekend. Does anyone aerate the wort before pitching Philly sour?

I have two 11.5 g packets... But reading the post maybe i Will try only with one.
I always aerate (shake the bucket method) and never have any issues. I've done it with Philly Sour and other yeasts (dry, liquid, cakes, etc) and plan to continue doing it.
 

CEBrewer

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Brew Day! Here is the recipe for my "Vorlaut Hosen" Berliner Weisse. (Working name. Looking for a German phrase that means "Sassy Pants" Freche Hosen? any German speakers out there?)

Fermentables
%
lb
fermentable
ppg
L
usage
47%​
4​
White Wheat - US
40​
3°​
Mash​
26%​
2.25​
Maris Otter Pale - UK
38​
2°​
Mash​
26%​
2.25​
Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner - DE
38​
2°​
Mash​
8.5 lb​
Hops
oz
variety
type
usage
time
AA
IBU
0.5​
Saaz
Pellet​
Boil​
60 minutes
3.2​
6.1​
0.5​
Saaz
Pellet​
Boil​
15 minutes
3.2​
3.0​
1 oz​
IBUs calculated using the Tinseth formula
Mash at 149F.

I saw in the technical data provided, : "The pitch rate will affect the fermentation performance and flavor of the beer. For WildBrew™ Philly Sour yeast, a pitch rate 50-100 g per hL of wort is sufficient to achieve a minimum of 0.5 - 1 million viable cells/mL. More stressful fermentations such as high gravity, high adjunct or high acidity may require higher pitch rates and additional nutrients to ensure a healthy fermentation."

Looking for 1.050 OG and since I'm not stressing the yeast with adjuncts, high gravity, or pre-souring I'm going to try with just 1 packet. I had seen that the package information called for 0.5-1g /L, so when I was reading that many of you had been using 2 packets, I delayed my brew day and bought another. Thanks to the additional posts since I asked, I think I'll go back to just using one and see how it goes! Hopefully I'll get the souring I want and be all set for my next batch!
 

Kabezullo

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I always aerate (shake the bucket method) and never have any issues. I've done it with Philly Sour and other yeasts (dry, liquid, cakes, etc) and plan to continue doing it.
I always add O2 before pitching, but i ask because I didn´t read any review about that point in lanchancea spp.
specifically; but i suppose that is similar to other fermentations.
 

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First carbed pour of my philly sour raspberry ale. Wife and I were at a beer event earlier this afternoon and my wife had a raspberry sour from a brewery we both quite like. We were both in agreement that my homebrew had both better raspberry flavor and a better sour profile. Win win!
23EDAC11-16C1-4C9A-9B23-E00CFA2DB14C.jpeg
 

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Making a 10 gallon batch, so I made a starter from 1 packet. I tasted the supernatant when dumping it before pitching, and wow! Very, very peachy, with some apple-ish aftertaste that had a very slight tang. I'm excited to see what it does in this batch.
 

Elric

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Making a 10 gallon batch, so I made a starter from 1 packet. I tasted the supernatant when dumping it before pitching, and wow! Very, very peachy, with some apple-ish aftertaste that had a very slight tang. I'm excited to see what it does in this batch.
Let us know how it does. With recommending two packs for 5 gallons curious how well you do with a started from 1 pack in 10 gallons.
 

couchsending

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I didn’t experience any fermentation issues with one pack in 5 gallons of low gravity wort. Not sure if the ester/flavor profile would have been different with more yeast but attenuation was decently quick and it flocced well and acidified nicely.
 

marc1

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I didn’t experience any fermentation issues with one pack in 5 gallons of low gravity wort. Not sure if the ester/flavor profile would have been different with more yeast but attenuation was decently quick and it flocced well and acidified nicely.
What flavor profile did you get?
 

couchsending

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What flavor profile did you get?
Honestly it’s really hard to describe. The strongest note to me was something close to tobacco but not in a bad way. I didn’t get really much peach, maybe a bit of apple. I used only 2% dextrose, mashed at 148 for a while. Fermented in a 68* ambient room. Fermentation topped out at 71 internal. I was amazed how quickly it dropped clear actually. OG was around 1.040 I think (gotta look at notes).

It’s definitely more reminiscent of something soured over time vs the sourness From a kettle sour. More depth and complexity without the lemony lactic note. No real “wild” character. I too did a raspberry version and the fruit character is nuts. Really tannic/seedy but in a good way that’s interesting. I used frozen organic raspberries that I vacuum sealed a long time ago. Thawed and dumped in.
 

marc1

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Honestly it’s really hard to describe. The strongest note to me was something close to tobacco but not in a bad way. I didn’t get really much peach, maybe a bit of apple. I used only 2% dextrose, mashed at 148 for a while. Fermented in a 68* ambient room. Fermentation topped out at 71 internal. I was amazed how quickly it dropped clear actually. OG was around 1.040 I think (gotta look at notes).

It’s definitely more reminiscent of something soured over time vs the sourness From a kettle sour. More depth and complexity without the lemony lactic note. No real “wild” character. I too did a raspberry version and the fruit character is nuts. Really tannic/seedy but in a good way that’s interesting. I used frozen organic raspberries that I vacuum sealed a long time ago. Thawed and dumped in.
Weird how that is so different from my starter, which had massive peach. It was in the basement, probably 65 ambient, on a stirplate. No sugar added. Obviously massive overpitch of 1 packet for the 3.5 quarts.

At least the results seem to all be coming in as generally pleasing!
 

Tyler B

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For anyone who is interested... I tasted my second batch (about a week into fermentation) and it seems completely different from my last batch.

Batch 1 I did everything to encourage maximum sourness (two packs of yeast, simple sugars added to boil, mashed low, etc) and it was in your face sour. Mouth watering, almost puckering sour. I got more apple notes and less stone fruit. Maybe a bit dryer/thinner than I would have liked.

Batch 2 I basically did the opposite. Pitched 1 pack, mashed a bit higher, added no simple sugars, etc. It currently has a very subtle sour flavor. Fuller body with flavor/aroma notes of pineapple. Still good just not even close to as sour as my first one. It'll probably change a bit over the next couple weeks, but probably not much.

Next time I think I'll pitch two packs, add simple sugars, and mash higher with the hopes of getting the same sourness with a bit more body.
 

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Completed my first philly sour recently - packaged 3 weeks ago. It was a traditional Gose with pH 2.99 but a soft gentle acidity that is very refreshing. I did a single decoction on it to enhance the level of malt perceived a little as I was concerned about it being too dry and it balanced very well. The color is straw and it is delicious! This was a challenge brew for our local club that had to have the decoction and at least 20% rye malt so it was not so traditional I suppose. I would say that it was a little slower to get going though not super slow and I only pitched one pack directly in 5 gal. I was very patient and let the pH drop until it was stable at maybe 3-4 weeks primary and secondary combined. I also added 1 lb dextrose to the grist to promote sourness. All together a great out come. Curt.
 

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It's gone from 1.037 on 10/1 to 1.017 tonight. No crazy peach flavor, nice general fruitiness, though. Pitched at 75 and raised to 77 now. Also tightened up the spunding valve a bit to start carbing.
 

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Pitched 1 bag in 16.5L ferment. Acidified ko ph was 4.94 end ph before fruit addition 3.04
4.4% dextrose.
Og 1.067 fg 1.016 (inc lactose) in 14 days.
Post fruit addition its got a nice deep sour as I like it. Nothing too crazy.
Def like this yeast and want to test it together with a brett pitch.
 

CEBrewer

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1601902829504.png

Eight days after pitching 1 packet into 5 gal of 1.050 SG wort. Airlock activity has nearly stopped and it has dropped clear for the most part. My FG is at 1.017. Aroma of pear and peach. It has a very nice sourness. pH reads at 3.05. I tested the pH prior to pitching the Philly Sour and the pH was at 5.67. I'm impressed with how easy this was. I did not add any extra glucose to the wort. Temp has been between 66 and 72F in my basement. When I have more time to tend to it this will be fun to play with the variables and see how it responds, but so far I am very impressed with the results of my hands off approach. I'm hoping to keg it this weekend but I'll need to see if the SG is stable first.

I want to put some raspberry puree along side this for people to add as desired. Should I do anything other than mash the berries and strain out the seeds?
 

1HW

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Brewed our second batch with Philly Sour yeast a week ago. Single sachet (11g). No yeast nutrient. Not quite 7 days in. Already at terminal SG and pH. Samples have not dropped clear yet, and so we plan to continue fermentation through Day 10.

Screen Shot 2020-10-06 at 9.50.26 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-10-06 at 9.55.27 AM.png


Both batches included a flameout addition of 12 oz raspberries, and both trended towards apple notes more so than peach or stone fruit. Second batch was identical to the first with the exception of 8 oz acidulated in Batch 2. Water chemistry tools pegged our mash pH at 5.2, but we ended up at 5.1 (@68°F). I would characterize both batches as moderately sour (i.e., sour enough for sour- and non sour-fans alike). Neither batch is the kind of mouth-puckering sour that would cause one's face to contort into meme-worthy expressions. Recipes below. Batch 2 is going to receive a secondary addition of another 12 oz raspberries.

Original Recipe: Brewfather

Version 2 (8 oz acidulated; additional 12 oz raspberries @ Day 0 of Secondary): Brewfather
 

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I'm a bit late to this discussion and sorry if it's been asked already. I'm interested in using this yeast to make some kind of beer with passion fruit.

Is there any concern with equipment contamination? and/or any need for additional cleaning practices outside of what's typical for ale and lager brewing? (fermenters, kegs, beer lines, etc..)

Thanks 🍻
 

1HW

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Is there any concern with equipment contamination? and/or any need for additional cleaning practices outside of what's typical for ale and lager brewing? (fermenters, kegs, beer lines, etc..)
It's a wild yeast, so the recommendation from the manufacturer is to treat it as such. That said, it's a slow starter and is readily out-competed by other yeasts, so most folks use their standard level of sanitization...
 

C(ov)ider+

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FYI - this yeast works for cider too. I love me some sour beer, but I've started learning with cider (for now)..... so I decided to go out on a limb and try to try this to make my first batch of sour cider, or as I'm thinking of it, "Philly Cider-Weisse". I pitched the whole packet into 2.5 gallons of pasteurized apple juice. I haven't yet experimented with too many yeasts beyond EC1118 and Nottingham, but this has been the most persnickety fermentation I've ever seen. It showed virtually no airlock action for 36 hours, only a bit of foam that couldn't really be called krausen. It got cold here around the time I started this batch, which is how I found out that it seems pretty temperature sensitive - it only really got going initially once I turned on a space heater to bring things above the low to mid-60s. I'm curious how much of that is because it behaves differently with cider and how much of that is because it's a very special yeast ....or maybe it's just me.....

I racked to secondary yesterday when fermentation slowed about 10 days in, and found it tasty - unsurprisingly resembling a very tart green apple. I am lightly dry-hopping all according to the "Berliner cider-weisse" recipe I'm loosely following, and racked part of it over blackberry puree in addition to the hops. SG started at ~1.060, and was still around 1.008, which is higher than I'm used to seeing after running on juice for 10 days, but I'm ok with that, as I'll try to hold out and let it sit for a few weeks and see how it ends up.
 

1HW

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but this has been the most persnickety fermentation I've ever seen. It showed virtually no airlock action for 36 hours, only a bit of foam that couldn't really be called krausen. It got cold here around the time I started this batch, which is how I found out that it seems pretty temperature sensitive - it only really got going initially once I turned on a space heater to bring things above the low to mid-60s. I'm curious how much of that is because it behaves differently with cider and how much of that is because it's a very special yeast ....or maybe it's just me.....
Philly Sour yeast is a notoriously slow starter. If you look at the pH and S.G. time curves, the pH reaches terminal value more quickly than S.G. This is also why they advise that you not co-pitch it with another yeast. The "other" yeast will almost certainly outcompete the Philly Sour yeast.

From their technical sheet:

The optimal temperature range for WildBrew™ Philly Sour yeast when producing traditional styles is 20°C(68°F) to 25°C(77°F).
Final gravity sounds about right given its attenuation (somewhere between 1.013 and 1.008). Glad it turned out well for you.
 

Tyler B

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I'm a bit late to this discussion and sorry if it's been asked already. I'm interested in using this yeast to make some kind of beer with passion fruit.

Is there any concern with equipment contamination? and/or any need for additional cleaning practices outside of what's typical for ale and lager brewing? (fermenters, kegs, beer lines, etc..)

Thanks 🍻
I've fermented a NEIPA and a kolsch in the same fermenter I used to brew my first Philly Sour beer with no problems. Neither turned out sour and they didn't show any signs of contamination. I just used normal cleaning practices. I recently brewed a second batch of Philly Sour and a different RIS is fermenting near by. I treat it the same as all other yeasts and don't anticipate any issues moving forward. YMMV.
 
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Has anyone tried overbuilding a yeast starter to repitch yet? I know it is not recommended and the subsequent pitches would most likely not sour as much due to the stress of the lower pH.

I haven't done this for years now as probiotics are easy to come by but when I used to do kettle sours with Lactobacillus I would make starters and add calcium carbonate as a buffer to encourage maximum growth. I believe there are several studies confirming that for Lactobacillus this strategy does work. It sounds like that this strategy could also work for this yeast as it would reduce the acidity of the starter and in theory would increase the chances of successful subsequent pitches. All of the attempts I have read on here, reddit or milk to funk are repitches from a harvested yeast cake from a finished batch where obviously no one would be adding a buffer.

Another thought I had would be to potentially increase the percentage of glucose in each batch to hopefully allow easier lactic acid production if the yeast is stressed.

I plan on doing this anyway but I guess I shouldn't compound variables and do one strategy at a time to see the results. My plan would be to do the starter to pitch at 1 million cells/mL/P and from what I've done before with Lactobacillus 2g of calcium carbonate per liter. Anyone have any thoughts on this before I go ahead and do it?
 

Tyler B

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Has anyone tried overbuilding a yeast starter to repitch yet? I know it is not recommended and the subsequent pitches would most likely not sour as much due to the stress of the lower pH.

I haven't done this for years now as probiotics are easy to come by but when I used to do kettle sours with Lactobacillus I would make starters and add calcium carbonate as a buffer to encourage maximum growth. I believe there are several studies confirming that for Lactobacillus this strategy does work. It sounds like that this strategy could also work for this yeast as it would reduce the acidity of the starter and in theory would increase the chances of successful subsequent pitches. All of the attempts I have read on here, reddit or milk to funk are repitches from a harvested yeast cake from a finished batch where obviously no one would be adding a buffer.

Another thought I had would be to potentially increase the percentage of glucose in each batch to hopefully allow easier lactic acid production if the yeast is stressed.

I plan on doing this anyway but I guess I shouldn't compound variables and do one strategy at a time to see the results. My plan would be to do the starter to pitch at 1 million cells/mL/P and from what I've done before with Lactobacillus 2g of calcium carbonate per liter. Anyone have any thoughts on this before I go ahead and do it?
My second batch was actually a 10 gallon batch and I plan to use the two yeast cakes from that brew session for a much larger batch at my friend's brewery. So, essentially, I made a 10 gallon starter. Not sure what size batch we'll brew yet, but I'll report back once it's done and let you know how it went.
 

Tyler B

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I may have overlooked it, but has anyone made and used invert sugar for their simple sugar source? I'm thinking about trying that with this yeast...
 
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Kenmoron

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I just bottled up my latest Philly Sour batch. I actually brewed a NEIPA, pitched the new Lallemand Verdant onto most of it, but set aside 1 gal to pitch Philly Sour on. I dry hopped at the same rate as the larger batch to try to have a comparison.

Grain Bill was 70% base malt, 28% wheat (malted, flaked, torified), and 2% crystal. Mashed at 151. No hops in the boil, lots of hops in the whirlpool. OG: 1.071, fermented at 75F, pitched at 1 g/L. Starting pH: 5.37. (The verdant was fermented at 68F)

At 2 days pH: 3.94, gravity: 1.065
At 4.5 days pH: 3.76, gravity: 1.055
At 6 days pH: 3.70, gravity: 1.023 (dry hopped)
Airlock activity finally seemed to stop day 8-9
At day 11 I bottled.
Final pH: 3.97, FG: 1.020
6.8% abv, 71% attenuation

1.) My last batch with Philly Sour pitched at a similar rate and ferm temp dropped in pH and gravity quicker than this one. I’m wondering if hops slow it down just a bit...this batch used about 3.1 oz/gal hops.

2.) Even though my pH is only at 3.97 there is a really nice tartness to it. I didn’t want to add extra simple sugar and risk it getting too sour and clashing with the hops. I actually think it has a great balance! I think this speaks to the difference between pH and ‘titratable acidity’. I imagine there is a lot of acid in here, it’s just being counteracted by the increase in pH by all the hops. For reference, the Verdant yeast batch ended at a pretty high 4.75. So a good 0.8 below the ‘control’.

I have yet to crack open a carbonated bottle. I conditioned with some extra bottling yeast just in case (though I’ve had success in the past without).
 

Holtza

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My first brew using Philly Sour (first sour brew ever, actually - and fifth batch ever) is currently in primary.

Grain bill is 93% base malt and 7% wheat (it's what I had left, so I threw it in).
Citra for aroma and light bitterness, IBU 28.
One pack of yeast for a batch of 11 L/2.9 gallon.
OG: 1.058.

After 5 days at 22°C, gravity is at 1.020 and it has a nice acidity (will test pH next time I draw a sample). Flavor reminds me of green apple, might be the citrusy notes from the hops playing into that as well. My original plan was to rack on pineapple and cocout for a couple of weeks in secondary. After tasting it, I think about half will go directly into bottles after primary - I'm interested to see how it will develop.

I'm following the repitch conversation with interest, as I plan on making an attempt at it as well.
 

t1m1

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Any experience with re-pitching this yeast?
 

Tyler B

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Repitched a yeast cake into a 150L batch yesterday at my friend's brewery. I'll report back as soon as I have useful feedback.

As for the batch that the cake came from, it turned out nice. No fruit added to half of it, average gravity, 1 pack/5 gallon pitch rate. Initial tastings weren't sour at all but it has a very balanced sourness and complexity to it now. Almost Bretty. The plain/no fruit half has some pineapple notes as well. Pretty solid on its own. The other half had raspberry added to it and this yeast really plays well with raspberry. It's excellent!

I'll update on the big repitch batch soon.
 

couchsending

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From what I’ve read due to the acidic environment it creates it can lose viabilty really quickly. Same reason you don’t repitch normal Sacc used to ferment a kettle sour.
 

Kenmoron

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Interestingly, I’ve repitched it myself and have heard of a few others try the same with a similar result...beer that’s not that sour. It seems to ferment just fine but fails to drop the pH as drastically as the initial pitch. I’ve only attempted once so far and have no way of determining if there was contamination by a normal sacc or not (I play with mixed ferm stuff and have yet to have a cross contamination *knock on wood*). But I found it odd that a few others (on Reddit/r/homebrewing) have had the same experience. It doesn’t seem to me as much of a viability thing as much as a possible adaptation thing. I’d love to hear from someone who successfully gets a sour beer on a repitch.
 
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