Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

[AlDogWV]

Racked the sour onto raspberry puree last week. It had been fermenting from 8/16 - 8/27 and that's typically more than enough time, however my gravity reading was 1.028. Much higher than what i anticipated. I am hoping that the additional sugar from puree might rouse some yeast and get it lower, but I'm not holding my breath. There has been airlock activity each day since, and I noticed it has slowed down and almost stopped when I checked last night. Kind of bummed about the higher FG so far. I've made this before using other yeasts, usually S-05, and haven't seen this issue.

Good news, though, it tasted like sour Tang! Unfortunately I do not have a ph meter to report the acidity level. We'll see if the FG gets any lower. Thinking od possibly pitching a packet of S-05, but not sure if it'd do more harm than good.

I'll report back in a few days...here's some pics from last week.

 

[Kenmoron]

Give it a few days and recheck gravity. If it hasn’t moved, I’d recommend pitching that US-05. If it’s moved even a little, go ahead and just let it keep going itself. It’s definitely a slower yeast.

 

[Amadeo38]

Has anyone tried making a starter with this yet? I’ve only got one pack (a free promo) and want to make a 5g batch but also hit the full souring potential.

 

[stealthfixr]

Everyone who tried my Raspberry Gose fermented with Philly Sour raves about it. Local brew shop praised the balance in the souring & fruit--loved it. I will ferment with this again for sure. For those on the fence, it doesn't get easier than this to make a darned good sour.

 

[stealthfixr]

Has anyone tried making a starter with this yet? I’ve only got one pack (a free promo) and want to make a 5g batch but also hit the full souring potential.

Not here, I pitched two packets directly for a 1.057 OG. Worked out fine.

The original guidance from Lallemand seemed to favor low-side pitching. Then it went away and the pitching guidelines about doubled. I'd just do a lower OG beer, like a 1.045 Gose, and pitch the one you have. I believe starters are not optimal for a dry yeast, so I would not go that way. Also, Philly Sour loves fruit puree, but when I do that again I will wait until it hits the expected FG before throwing that in.

 

[t1m1]

Everyone who tried my Raspberry Gose fermented with Philly Sour raves about it. Local brew shop praised the balance in the souring & fruit--loved it. I will ferment with this again for sure. For those on the fence, it doesn't get easier than this to make a darned good sour.

What was your fruit/beer ratio? It was in primary only, right?

 

[AlDogWV]

Not here, I pitched two packets directly for a 1.057 OG. Worked out fine.

The original guidance from Lallemand seemed to favor low-side pitching. Then it went away and the pitching guidelines about doubled. I'd just do a lower OG beer, like a 1.045 Gose, and pitch the one you have. I believe starters are not optimal for a dry yeast, so I would not go that way. Also, Philly Sour loves fruit puree, but when I do that again I will wait until it hits the expected FG before throwing that in.

Same - I pitched two dry packets into 1.071 wort (well, it was 1.068; I was off a couple of points). Didn't rehydrate. And some of that 1.068 was 1.5 lbs of lactose.

 

[Tyler B]

I pitched two packs into 5.5 gallons of 1.056 wort as well.

 

[couchsending]

Here are my results from a recent batch with Philly Sour.

Shooting for a lowish gravity Berliner style beer.

OG was 1.044. Mashed at 148 for 90 minutes plus steps at 162/170. Added 2% dextrose.

Fermented uncontrolled in 68* room that’s consistangly that temp. Don’t think I saw internal fermentation temp over 71. Seemed to be done in 6 days. Yeast had flocced incredibly well by day 7. pH hit 3.27 but FG was only 1.013. Was steady at 1.013 for two days.

Beer had an interesting Tobacco like note during fermentation and after. Honestly never experienced anything like it in any kettle sour or mixed fermentation beer I’ve ever made. It’s not off putting but it’s definitely there. For sure a much more complex fermentation profile than any ketttle sour I’ve done.

Gravity seemed stable so I added a little over 1#/gallon of organic raspberries that I froze probably a year ago. Left for a few days to come back to some pleasant bubbling. Measured gravity again just to see and now it’s down to 1.007?? mesured again today and it’s down to 1.005. Maybe their could have been some wild yeast pickup from the fruit but I highly doubt it. The bags were all sprayed with alcohol before opening and sanitation practices were standard for fruit additions. Forgot what pH was on the 1.007 reading but I think it had continued to drop.

Beer is shockingly clear. Kind of surprised how well this yeast floccs. Not sure if it flocced a little early due to maybe slightly colder temps and that’s why I had a steady gravity at 1.013 for a while or what??

 

[t1m1]

How about taste before fruit? Have you tried it?

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

This is my experience with this yeast;

I used a personal recipe for a simple golden ale with hallertau hops. Five gallon batch, pitched at around 68 degrees, fermented at about the same temperature. The first three days there was a pretty limited amount of activity in the airlock...day 4 she was pissin' co2. Which makes sense with what Ive heard about people saying it does lacto production for a few days before ethanol production really kicks in. It reached 90% attenuation by day 9, I waited until day 15 (work keeps me busy) to rack into the bottling bucket with some sugar water and then bottled for conditioning.

Post bottle conditioning beer has super pleasant lacto smell, more complex than what you get from a kettle sour. Not as funky as some mixed fermentation beers I've made, and not hard puckering sour. It reminds of a golden sour blended with a saison (think New Belgiums Sour Saison).

This yeast is pretty ******* baller to be honest. To have a sour that has this level of complexity with this quick of a turn around time is pretty incredible. I can see this being great for sours blended with fruit (I plan to do some next!), and I would love to bottle a beer fermented with this yeast with some Brett to get some even more complex flavors.

If you love sour beers you really gotta give this yeast a go.

 

[Amadeo38]

This is my experience with this yeast;

I used a personal recipe for a simple golden ale with hallertau hops. Five gallon batch, pitched at around 68 degrees, fermented at about the same temperature. The first three days there was a pretty limited amount of activity in the airlock...day 4 she was pissin' co2. Which makes sense with what Ive heard about people saying it does lacto production for a few days before ethanol production really kicks in. It reached 90% attenuation by day 9, I waited until day 15 (work keeps me busy) to rack into the bottling bucket with some sugar water and then bottled for conditioning.

Post bottle conditioning beer has super pleasant lacto smell, more complex than what you get from a kettle sour. Not as funky as some mixed fermentation beers I've made, and not hard puckering sour. It reminds of a golden sour blended with a saison (think New Belgiums Sour Saison).

This yeast is pretty ****ing baller to be honest. To have a sour that has this level of complexity with this quick of a turn around time is pretty incredible. I can see this being great for sours blended with fruit (I plan to do some next!), and I would love to bottle a beer fermented with this yeast with some Brett to get some even more complex flavors.

If you love sour beers you really gotta give this yeast a go.

Making me get excited. I’ve got my first batch in the ferm chamber now. Decided on a heavy traditional gose just at 5 gals and 1.048 OG despite only having one packet to pitch. Hoping it sours enough, but if not, I’ll toss some passion fruit in there to increase acidity perception.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I tried it recently with a Berliner Weiss style ale. Bottled into champagne bottles with champagne yeast and aimed for a high carbonation level. Tried one after a week as the gravity samples were nicely sour and had a nice background fruitiness . Very happy with it and will try another one in a few days ( night shift ), and I expect the carbonation to be fairly high. Very fast and straight forward. I like it

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Making me get excited. I’ve got my first batch in the ferm chamber now. Decided on a heavy traditional gose just at 5 gals and 1.048 OG despite only having one packet to pitch. Hoping it sours enough, but if not, I’ll toss some passion fruit in there to increase acidity perception.

I think you'll be happy with the results of just one packet unless you're looking for the bracing pucker sour. It's definitely a very accessible moderate sour, peach and red apple is a pretty spot on description. Very cider like. Very bright and pleasant acidity. Which is definitely the best upside of this yeast. The seminar I saw from lallemand on YouTube mentions increasing the amount of glucose in fermentation can increase the sourness more than increasing the pitching rate. From what Im reading of other's experience and now from my own it seems like the yeast is a pretty consistent performer in the results it achieves.. Honestly that would be my only concern with this yeast is how it might produce really similar beers reguardless of your base. Im excited to brew a lot of my old recipes and try some new ones using this yeast and seeing how different characteristics can work with it.

 

[t1m1]

How about water chemistry? Something balanced?

 

[AlDogWV]

Racked the sour onto raspberry puree last week. It had been fermenting from 8/16 - 8/27 and that's typically more than enough time, however my gravity reading was 1.028. Much higher than what i anticipated. I am hoping that the additional sugar from puree might rouse some yeast and get it lower, but I'm not holding my breath. There has been airlock activity each day since, and I noticed it has slowed down and almost stopped when I checked last night. Kind of bummed about the higher FG so far. I've made this before using other yeasts, usually S-05, and haven't seen this issue.

Good news, though, it tasted like sour Tang! Unfortunately I do not have a ph meter to report the acidity level. We'll see if the FG gets any lower. Thinking od possibly pitching a packet of S-05, but not sure if it'd do more harm than good.

I'll report back in a few days...here's some pics from last week.

Finally racked to keg on Friday, 9/11 and the gravity finished at 1.020. Target was 1.019, so I am happy with that. It is very sour and it is difficult to characterize the flavor of the yeast or souring alone, as i the recipe I did had dry hops, raspberries, orange peel, etc. But it is very good.

It took a much longer time than I would have thought. I honestly expected the yeast to have been at target gravity on 8/27, and then the krausen that developed after racking onto the strawberry puree still hadn't fallen after 15 days (I cold crashed it). All in all, it's not a big deal and I ended up with a good, sour beer. But it was 26 days from grain to keg. Maybe I could've sped it along somehow, but I chose to let it sit and do its own thing.

I think I'l use this yeast again in a much simpler recipe, like a standard Berliner weisse. It'll will be easier to judge the character if the yeast, I think.

 

[stealthfixr]

Anyone tried something other than a Berliner or Gose style with Philly Sour? While I am very happy with how my Gose turned out (keg is going quick), I am wondering how well it will do with, say, a Flanders Red or something similarly more malty style? I may mash lower next iteration to help the FG get lower too.

Might also add Brett on the backside, after the primary is done, to further add sour complexity and lower the FG even further. Would not be a full Lambic/Flanders Red, but might be more complex than just the lactic acid contribution alone.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I’m pretty happy with it, I think Brett might be an interesting addition as well.

 

[Elric]

Brewed a 2.5 gallon batch of golden sour with this on the 7th. Fermented for six days then split the batch. One gallon went on top of a pound of raspberries, the other was left where it was but got a dose of dry hops. Bottled the dry hopped portion this evening, going to leave the other one on the fruit a while longer. Gravity was 1.01 in the end and the sourness comes across well. pretty happy eith it so far, looking forward to checking out the fruited portion.

 

[Amadeo38]

Kegged my batch tonight. Was 5 gallons of Gose at 1.048 OG and finished at 1.011. Used only one packet, and as I was advised would happen, it’s not very tart. I would guess pH is around 3.7? Plan to add something acidic into the keg, such as passion fruit purée, but I feel like I missed out on a good secondary ferment opp since I’ve already cold crashed and racked to keg.

 

[Beer666]

I added some brett and raspberries in secondary and its a little uninspiring. I much prefer the modern funky fast sour method. lots more depth and flavour and a much nicer acidity.
Also did a Gose which i could not drink. Possibly down to the coriander which i thought at the time was not a good idea in beer.

 

[t1m1]

Guys, what do you think about transfer to secondary fermentation vessel, killing the rest of the yeast and prevent eventual multiplication of new or wild and adding fruit after? Is it gonna keep or get more fruit character that way?

Do you have any experience with mentioned "method"?

 

[Elric]

Kegged my last gallon that was sitting on raspberries this afternoon. Hydrometer sample was very tasty. More tart thanks to the raspberries and a great color. looking forward to trying it once it is chilled and carbed!

 

[CEBrewer]

Used only one packet, and as I was advised would happen, it’s not very tart. I would guess pH is around 3.7? Plan to add something acidic into the keg, such as passion fruit purée, but I feel like I missed out on a good secondary ferment opp since I’ve already cold crashed and racked to keg.

Anyone else try fermenting a 5 gal batch using only one packet? The expected OG of my recipe is 1.050. I didn't realize I needed 2 when I ordered my supply and now cost/time till I would like to serve for a party is a factor. However, I don't want to waste what I have by underpitching and not getting a truly sour beer.

 

[marc1]

Anyone else try fermenting a 5 gal batch using only one packet? The expected OG of my recipe is 1.050. I didn't realize I needed 2 when I ordered my supply and now cost/time till I would like to serve for a party is a factor. However, I don't want to waste what I have by underpitching and not getting a truly sour beer.

I'm planning 11 gallons of low 1.030s gravity this coming weekend, so I got a 3L starter going a few days ago. The yeast is supposed to be slow, so I'll give it a few more days in the starter. It's supposed to flocc really well. I'm going to save a pint for next time, then crash, decant, and pitch the rest.

 

[The M]

OK, first time brewing with Philly Sour and here's my findings so far. I brewed 23L (6gal) low gravity fruited Berliner Weisse style batch 7 days ago and took first gravity reading today. It's down from 1.037--> 1.013. Still some activity in the airlock and I'm planning to add some home grown redcurrants in the fermenter soon. During last couple of months I've brewed couple of batches using co-souring method with Lactobacillus plantarum. From what I've read from this thread and the feedback from my friends who have used Philly Sour I didn't expect much from the sourness. But when I tasted the sample I couldn't believe it. This one is really sour! Very clean sour taste and definitely some sweet red apples in aroma. My Lactobacillus plantarum co-souring batches have finished almost exact with PH of 3.2. I took a PH reading from this Philly Sour batch and it was 3.06. I know that PH reading doesn't tell you the truth about the sourness and I usually rely on my taste buds but I still like to follow the PH readings of the beers I brew.

Recipe is the same I have used with last four co-souring batches:

66% Dingemans Pilsen
33% Ireks Wheat Malt Light
5ml Lactic acid in mash & 2ml in sparge water (mash PH was 5.15)
3g of Calcium Chloride
60min mash @ 64C (147F)
10min mash out @ 75C (167F)
70min boil
No hops
OG 1.037
FG 1.003 (calculated by Brewfather software)

1 packet of Philly Sour pitched straight from packet to the FV, so no rehydration. Fermenting now @ 22C (72F) in temp controlled fermentation chamber and going to raise the temp to 24C (75F) when I add the redcurrants into the primary

Anyway I'm quite impressed so far. Just have to wait and see where the FG will settle

 

[1HW]

We brewed a Philly Sour two months ago (recipe). Added 12 oz frozen raspberries at flameout. Had contemplated adding a few pounds more in secondary, but decided against it...already tasted great post-ferment, and so we opted not to mess with it. I recommend tasting post-ferment before piling on the secondary fruits.

Single sachet (11g) of yeast. The webinar was based on the presenter's lab formulation at the time. Lallemand formulation is different than the webinar formulation as I understand it. My better half is a non-sour drinker, and this is her favorite beer that we've brewed.

 

[marc1]

We brewed a Philly Sour two months ago (recipe). Added 12 oz frozen raspberries at flameout. Had contemplated adding a few pounds more in secondary, but decided against it...already tasted great post-ferment, and so we opted not to mess with it. I recommend tasting post-ferment before piling on the secondary fruits.

Single sachet (11g) of yeast. The webinar was based on the presenter's lab formulation at the time. Lallemand formulation is different than the webinar formulation as I understand it. My better half is a non-sour drinker, and this is her favorite beer that we've brewed.

Interesting!
Where did you see that? That's another reference this thread could use!

Glad the beer came out great - I'm excited to try it out soon!

 

[1HW]

Where did you see that? That's another reference this thread could use!

Glad the beer came out great - I'm excited to try it out soon!

Lallemand Philly Sour Press Release

50-100g per hL (hectoliter). So 0.5-1 grams per liter.

 

[marc1]

Lallemand Philly Sour Press Release

50-100g per hL (hectoliter). So 0.5-1 grams per liter.

Thanks! Did you find anything that says that the formulation changed?

The difference may be that while it ferments great within that concentration range, you get more lactic acid and an ester profile towards stone fruit rather than apples at the higher, and less lactic and more apple flavor at the lower.

How was your sourness? Did you get more apple or stonefruit in your batch? If it works to produce them well at lower pitching rates in homebrew practice, that is great news!