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Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

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Kenmoron

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Batch: 3 gal
Grain bill: 75% Maris Otter, 25% Red Wheat Malt
Mash: overnight mash at 150F (about 10 hrs, dropped to about 144F)
Boil: x5 mins
Hops: 1 oz Citra at flameout
SG: 1.051
chilled to 75F

I split the 3 gal batch into 1 gal and 2 gal batches and plan on fruiting the 2 gal (tons of backyard raspberries) while leaving the 1 gal neutral. I direct pitched 1 packet (so right at about 1 g/L pitch rate) split accordingly between the fermenters and let it sit at 75F.
Well, I just bottled my batch last night. Unfortunately, it didn't attenuate as much as I wanted it to, only 71% (1.051 to 1.015). This is especially interesting as I typically get a high attenuation when doing an overnight mash. Fermentation temperature held pretty steady between 74-75F. I'm pretty sure it was finished as it was at 1.015 when I checked it on Day 5...and when checked on Day 8 it was still at 1.015 so I just bottled it then. The unfruited batch finished at pH 3.34 while the batch with raspberries finished at 3.31. Both samples taste like a tart fruit juice. The unfruited sample has lots of juicy peach, nectarine, and some background fleshy apple. The batch with raspberries tastes like raspberry lemonade. I'm actually super stoked on the flavor profile! I just wish it would have gotten a little drier. Although, I can see these 'sours' being crowd favorites as they are very easy drinking with that added sweetness. I am looking forward to playing around with Philly Sour and brett in the future. If doing another batch of Philly Sour by itself, I may be inclined to add some extra simple sugars (~10% or so).

In terms of bottling, I always like bottling straight from the fermenter using 'Domino Dots' sugar cubes in order to minimize oxygen. So I did the same here, but before capping, added just a bit (maybe 5-10 granules) of EC-1118 yeast to condition. I left two bottles without any conditioning yeast just to see if Philly Sour can condition on its own. I will try to give these two bottles plenty of time before checking. Regarding the yeast cake, I added a fresh bottle of water and swirled (in an attempt to bring the pH up a bit) before transferring some of the slurry to a mason jar. I will try to repitch this on something soon to see how it does.
 

Tyler B

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Well, I just bottled my batch last night. Unfortunately, it didn't attenuate as much as I wanted it to, only 71% (1.051 to 1.015). This is especially interesting as I typically get a high attenuation when doing an overnight mash. Fermentation temperature held pretty steady between 74-75F. I'm pretty sure it was finished as it was at 1.015 when I checked it on Day 5...and when checked on Day 8 it was still at 1.015 so I just bottled it then. The unfruited batch finished at pH 3.34 while the batch with raspberries finished at 3.31. Both samples taste like a tart fruit juice. The unfruited sample has lots of juicy peach, nectarine, and some background fleshy apple. The batch with raspberries tastes like raspberry lemonade. I'm actually super stoked on the flavor profile! I just wish it would have gotten a little drier. Although, I can see these 'sours' being crowd favorites as they are very easy drinking with that added sweetness. I am looking forward to playing around with Philly Sour and brett in the future. If doing another batch of Philly Sour by itself, I may be inclined to add some extra simple sugars (~10% or so).

In terms of bottling, I always like bottling straight from the fermenter using 'Domino Dots' sugar cubes in order to minimize oxygen. So I did the same here, but before capping, added just a bit (maybe 5-10 granules) of EC-1118 yeast to condition. I left two bottles without any conditioning yeast just to see if Philly Sour can condition on its own. I will try to give these two bottles plenty of time before checking. Regarding the yeast cake, I added a fresh bottle of water and swirled (in an attempt to bring the pH up a bit) before transferring some of the slurry to a mason jar. I will try to repitch this on something soon to see how it does.
Good stuff! I'm anxious to hear how all of this turns out. It's looking like my shipment will be delayed due to Covid.
 
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stealthfixr

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Brewed the Gose above yesterday, pretty flawless session (unlike last time). No real change in gravity yet, but the fermenter looked like this about 12.5 hours after pitching two packets of Philly Sour (no rehydration, just sprinkled on the wort surface). And, Brewfather Tilt tracking attached as well.

Regarding the Tilt and other threads about inaccuracies, this OG exactly agrees with my hydrometer and refractometer. I did also just calibrate it in distilled water, but it wasn’t off by much at all.
 

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Kenmoron

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No real change in gravity yet, but the fermenter looked like this about 12.5 hours after pitching two packets of Philly Sour (no rehydration, just sprinkled on the wort surface).
Pretty much the same experience I had with 1 packet directly into 3 gal. Big, soapy krausen at 10 hrs without much gravity change. The bulk of the remaining fermentation had no real krausen, just a filmy, bubbly surface. Then on day 5, the yeast just flocced like a rock.
AC94C9CE-F8F6-438C-AF3F-00DF615801ED.jpeg76666473-B91D-4A72-B6EC-935C6DFF5E1F.jpegB66EDC0B-49BC-4B7D-A454-25B84BBAFD7E.jpeg

One more thing...while I was cleaning the fermenter, I noticed the ring left from the krausen was incredibly oily. PBW took care of it just fine though. I haven't had this experience with other yeasts even using the same grain bill. I am guessing this yeast creates some sort of biofilm.
 
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My test batch with Philly Sour seems to be stuck at 1.020. Anyone else having this problem? I brewed up a sour NEIPA 17 days ago. My OG was 1.056. I fermented at 72 degrees for 10 days and was at 1.021. I moved the fermenter to warmer 75 degree space for another week and it only dropped to 1.020. Not sure where to go from here. The flavor profile is spectacular, pineapple, grapefruit, nice balanced acidity. Unfortunately lots of residual sweetness since the attenuation is so low.
 

Kenmoron

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My test batch with Philly Sour seems to be stuck at 1.020. Anyone else having this problem? I brewed up a sour NEIPA 17 days ago. My OG was 1.056. I fermented at 72 degrees for 10 days and was at 1.021. I moved the fermenter to warmer 75 degree space for another week and it only dropped to 1.020. Not sure where to go from here. The flavor profile is spectacular, pineapple, grapefruit, nice balanced acidity. Unfortunately lots of residual sweetness since the attenuation is so low.
Depending on your grain bill and mash temp/time you may be done already. Unfortunately, it seems like there is quite a wide range of attenuation people are getting. If it tastes good, go ahead and package. If you want to try and dry it out you can try to add enzyme to the fermenter (amyloglucosidase to get it really dry or just amylase to drop it a little bit more). The other option is to just pitch another, somewhat neutral yeast in there to try and finish it up (I'd probably try to do a small starter just to get it active before pitching it into some fairly acidic beer).
 
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Depending on your grain bill and mash temp/time you may be done already. Unfortunately, it seems like there is quite a wide range of attenuation people are getting. If it tastes good, go ahead and package. If you want to try and dry it out you can try to add enzyme to the fermenter (amyloglucosidase to get it really dry or just amylase to drop it a little bit more). The other option is to just pitch another, somewhat neutral yeast in there to try and finish it up (I'd probably try to do a small starter just to get it active before pitching it into some fairly acidic beer).
I was chatting with a very helpful rep at Lallemand today and she had similar recommendations. She recommended adding dextrose or another yeast to finish it off. Apparently this isn't an uncommon scenario. After ruling out high mash temp or other nonfermentable scenarios she said "The only other thing that I can think of is that this yeast is super flocculent and I know we have seen longer fermentation times in flat bottom fermenters. Basically the yeast flocs out prematurely before complete fermentation is finished."

I'm going to mix up a chico starter tonight and finish this off.
 

marc1

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My test batch with Philly Sour seems to be stuck at 1.020. Anyone else having this problem? I brewed up a sour NEIPA 17 days ago. My OG was 1.056. I fermented at 72 degrees for 10 days and was at 1.021. I moved the fermenter to warmer 75 degree space for another week and it only dropped to 1.020. Not sure where to go from here. The flavor profile is spectacular, pineapple, grapefruit, nice balanced acidity. Unfortunately lots of residual sweetness since the attenuation is so low.
What was your pitch rate?
 
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stealthfixr

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I've got a few US-05s in the fridge--I'll maybe add those with the Raspberry puree in a few days. Might increase the temperature from 75F to 76F as well.

After 3 days from pitching, the gravity went from 1.055 to 1.035, so it does seem slower than my normal sachs fermentation speed. If I remember in the webinar that the souring happens first, then the ethanol production. So, I am curious what the pH is now--might draw a sample to check.
 

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Tyler B

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I got my Philly Sour in the mail much quicker than I expected. As soon as I keg a brown ale that is occupying my fermenter, I'm going to give this a try. Probably in another week or two.
 
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stealthfixr

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Probably not going to late pitch US-05, looks like ethanol production recently picked up. Not yet done, but closer than yesterday for sure. Gravity down to 1.022 after 3.5 days and still going down.
 

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Tyler B

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Any thoughts on pre-acidifying the wort with this yeast? I had originally planned on doing this in my gose recipe, but I'm tossed up on whether or not I should try it.
 

Tyler B

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Absolutely no reason to do that.
My initial thoughts exactly, but then I wondered if it might result in a lower final pH? Or if it might have an impact on attenuation or anything else? From a cost perspective, a bit of acid malt and one pack of yeast might be cheaper than two packs of yeast and no acid malt (at least where I live).

I'm really just looking to generate discussion on the topic and have emailed Lallemand to see if they have any experience with this. I'll be sure to let you know if/when they respond.
 

Kenmoron

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My initial thoughts exactly, but then I wondered if it might result in a lower final pH? Or if it might have an impact on attenuation or anything else? From a cost perspective, a bit of acid malt and one pack of yeast might be cheaper than two packs of yeast and no acid malt (at least where I live).
Although there are still a lot of unknowns about Lachancea spp., in general, yeasts typically perform more poorly at lower pHs. In a typical kettle sour you bring the pH down to 4.5 in order to try and stave off unwanted microbes (you are leaving a lot of fermentable sugar at warm temps) and to try and help with foam/head stability (less protein metabolism by the bacteria). With Philly Sour, it starts to ferment pretty quickly, and I have no noticed no issues with head retention.

If I were to guess, I would think that dropping the pH prior pitching Philly sour would result in less fruity esters (with traditional sacc these are primarily made at the beginning of fermentation, and actually get less expressive in lower pHs), and possibly result in a lower attenuation (due to stress on the yeast?). That being said, Lachancea seems to drop the pH first, and then work more on alcoholic fermentation, so maybe there is something to your idea. So if you decide to try it out, please report back with your results!
 
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stealthfixr

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Pitched 3lb of Raspberry puree into the fermenter yesterday, and wow does Philly Sour like fruit! The activity immediately picked up, as well as a weird gravity drop & raise. A slight taste test confirmed that souring is really there, and really good, BTW. Gravity down to 1.017, so a little more yet to go. Temp upped to 76F.
 

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Pr0pheT

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I have made a Berliner Weisse with this yeast recently.
15L (4gal) batch, 1.034SG, 1.006FG
60% dingermans pils
30% weyermann malted wheat
10% malted oats
5 IBU mandarina bavaria @60min
5g irish moss @2 min

I rehydrated 1 pack of Philly sour, so that is about 0.73g/L pitch rate (the lallemand calculator said I needed only 7.5 grams for this batch which would be 0,5g/L pitch rate)
Pitched at 21°C (70°F) and fermented at 24-25C (75-77F)

PH got down to 3.35 by day 4 and it was done fermenting by day 10 at 1.006 SG which gives me 82% attenuation. I left it in the fermenter for a couple extra days just to be sure. Yesterday I´ve put half of it into the fridge to cold crash. It was already pretty clear for 30% wheat and 10% oats. I was thinking about adding gelatine but the yeast floculates like a champ so I dont think it will be necessary, I will probably just leave it in the fridge for another day and then bottle and re-yeast with ec-1118.

To the other half which is still on the yeast cake I added 455g (1lb) of frozen raspberries.

The sample I tasted yesterday had a great aroma of apricots/peaches (no apple) and it didnt smell sour but rather sweet which was surprising to me, taste was clean, with nice sournes although I would have liked if the ph was closer to 3.5

I will let you guys know how it went in a couple of weeks.

Also any idea if it would be safe to add some lactose to the one with raspberries ? The Philly sour shouldnt be able to ferment lactose right ?
 

AlDogWV

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I have made a Berliner Weisse with this yeast recently.
15L (4gal) batch, 1.034SG, 1.006FG
60% dingermans pils
30% weyermann malted wheat
10% malted oats
5 IBU mandarina bavaria @60min
5g irish moss @2 min

I rehydrated 1 pack of Philly sour, so that is about 0.73g/L pitch rate (the lallemand calculator said I needed only 7.5 grams for this batch which would be 0,5g/L pitch rate)
Pitched at 21°C (70°F) and fermented at 24-25C (75-77F)

PH got down to 3.35 by day 4 and it was done fermenting by day 10 at 1.006 SG which gives me 82% attenuation. I left it in the fermenter for a couple extra days just to be sure. Yesterday I´ve put half of it into the fridge to cold crash. It was already pretty clear for 30% wheat and 10% oats. I was thinking about adding gelatine but the yeast floculates like a champ so I dont think it will be necessary, I will probably just leave it in the fridge for another day and then bottle and re-yeast with ec-1118.

To the other half which is still on the yeast cake I added 455g (1lb) of frozen raspberries.

The sample I tasted yesterday had a great aroma of apricots/peaches (no apple) and it didnt smell sour but rather sweet which was surprising to me, taste was clean, with nice sournes although I would have liked if the ph was closer to 3.5

I will let you guys know how it went in a couple of weeks.

Also any idea if it would be safe to add some lactose to the one with raspberries ? The Philly sour shouldnt be able to ferment lactose right ?
Thanks for sharing your experience so far.

As for your question on milk sugar, I'll let everyone know in a few weeks. I've had this recipe on deck for a while and planned on kettle souring like I have in the past, but I'm going to try the Philly on it on 8/16. I'll report back once I have some info.

Raspberry Smoothie Sahr

Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 8.2 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.054
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

Original Gravity: 1.068
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (standard): 6.47%
IBU (tinseth): 0
SRM (morey): 3.81
Mash pH: 0

FERMENTABLES:
5 lb - Pilsner (33.8%)
5 lb - Wheat Malt (33.8%)
2 lb - Flaked Oats (13.5%)
1.5 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) - (late addition) (10.1%)
5 oz - Acidulated (2.1%)
16 oz - Cane Sugar (6.8%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Cascade (7 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 160 °F
2 oz - Citra (11 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 160 °F
2 oz - Mosaic (12.5 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 160 °F
1 oz - Cascade (7 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
1 oz - Citra (11 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
1 oz - Mosaic (12.5 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 9.01 gal

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
0.5 oz - Sweet Orange Peel 15 min left in Boil
6 lbs 2 oz - Vintner's Harvest Raspberry Puree in Secondary
0.5 oz - Sweet Orange Peel in Secondary
 

Tyler B

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Thanks for sharing your experience so far.

As for your question on milk sugar, I'll let everyone know in a few weeks. I've had this recipe on deck for a while and planned on kettle souring like I have in the past, but I'm going to try the Philly on it on 8/16. I'll report back once I have some info.

Raspberry Smoothie Sahr

Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 8.2 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.054
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

Original Gravity: 1.068
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (standard): 6.47%
IBU (tinseth): 0
SRM (morey): 3.81
Mash pH: 0

FERMENTABLES:
5 lb - Pilsner (33.8%)
5 lb - Wheat Malt (33.8%)
2 lb - Flaked Oats (13.5%)
1.5 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) - (late addition) (10.1%)
5 oz - Acidulated (2.1%)
16 oz - Cane Sugar (6.8%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Cascade (7 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 160 °F
2 oz - Citra (11 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 160 °F
2 oz - Mosaic (12.5 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 160 °F
1 oz - Cascade (7 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
1 oz - Citra (11 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
1 oz - Mosaic (12.5 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 9.01 gal

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
0.5 oz - Sweet Orange Peel 15 min left in Boil
6 lbs 2 oz - Vintner's Harvest Raspberry Puree in Secondary
0.5 oz - Sweet Orange Peel in Secondary
This looks delicious. Please update when finished. At first I thought it was strange to use lactose and cane sugar together, but it makes since with this yeast.
 

Tyler B

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OK, so I got a couple of responses from Lallemand re pre-acidifying wort:

From Molly Browning:
Great questions! I think pre-acidification does help a little bit as does your mash temp. The lactic acid is being produced from glucose molecules, so at a lower mash temp, you should see a lower pH. However, from the data we have been receiving from breweries, starting at a lower pH initially does seem to drop the pH even lower. The breweries that used a low mash temp but did not acidify saw a pH of around 3.68, those that acidified and had a standard mash temp (65C), are usually seeing a pH of around 3.3-3.4.

We are seeing roughly high 70 to low 80s for attenuation levels, but the pH seems fairly consistent amongst all levels. The attenuation does seem to be lower at higher gravities however.


From Eric Abbott:
Philly Sour produces lactic acid using glucose. If you start with a baseline of lactic acid from sour malt, you should get the same amount of lactic acid produced by the Philly Sour and so will have more lactic acid in the final beer. Pre-acidification is not required for this strain, but you can do it if you wish to make the beer more sour. It should not affect the attenuation.

With this in mind, I will most likely pre-acidify with acidulated malt (at the end of the mash). If I hear anything else, I will be sure to let you all know.
 

AlDogWV

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This looks delicious. Please update when finished. At first I thought it was strange to use lactose and cane sugar together, but it makes since with this yeast.
Thank you! I typically do not have the granulated sugar in the grist, but I did remove some wheat and pils and substituted the sugar in there after reading the info about the yeast liking simple sugars. We'll see how it goes, haha. I will definitely report back.
 

AlDogWV

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OK, so I got a couple of responses from Lallemand re pre-acidifying wort:

From Molly Browning:
Great questions! I think pre-acidification does help a little bit as does your mash temp. The lactic acid is being produced from glucose molecules, so at a lower mash temp, you should see a lower pH. However, from the data we have been receiving from breweries, starting at a lower pH initially does seem to drop the pH even lower. The breweries that used a low mash temp but did not acidify saw a pH of around 3.68, those that acidified and had a standard mash temp (65C), are usually seeing a pH of around 3.3-3.4.

We are seeing roughly high 70 to low 80s for attenuation levels, but the pH seems fairly consistent amongst all levels. The attenuation does seem to be lower at higher gravities however.


From Eric Abbott:
Philly Sour produces lactic acid using glucose. If you start with a baseline of lactic acid from sour malt, you should get the same amount of lactic acid produced by the Philly Sour and so will have more lactic acid in the final beer. Pre-acidification is not required for this strain, but you can do it if you wish to make the beer more sour. It should not affect the attenuation.

With this in mind, I will most likely pre-acidify with acidulated malt (at the end of the mash). If I hear anything else, I will be sure to let you all know.
Interesting. Not that it makes much difference, but I feel like what she states as a standard mash temp at 149F is low, not standard. Haha. Maybe I should lower my mash temp on the upcoming recipe.
 

Kenmoron

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After 1 week in the bottle with EC-1118 this beer is drinking fantastic! With pH of 3.31 and only 71% attenuation it is very easy-drinking. Raspberries go fantastic and it looks like this seems to be the popular fruit choice with others' recipes above. My process for the raspberries (these are from our backyard) is to freeze and thaw a few times, use a large spoon to press it through a mesh colander to acquire the pulp without seeds, put it in a large mason jar in a double boiler setup and bring it up to about 150-160 while constantly stirring, remove and cap the mason jar to let it cool to room temp, then add directly to the fermenter. I weighed out 1 lb/gal of raspberries which ended up resulting in about 0.75 lb/gal of pulp.
50053AC4-0970-4F45-9760-7ACE9178692C.jpeg
 

Tyler B

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Interesting. Not that it makes much difference, but I feel like what she states as a standard mash temp at 149F is low, not standard. Haha. Maybe I should lower my mash temp on the upcoming recipe.
Man, I felt the same way about those mash temps when I read that email. I wish there was only one variable at play here instead of two (mash temp and wort pH). Oh well, I suppose if you add a significant amount of glucose to the boil, mash temp doesn't make much of a difference.
After 1 week in the bottle with EC-1118 this beer is drinking fantastic! With pH of 3.31 and only 71% attenuation it is very easy-drinking. Raspberries go fantastic and it looks like this seems to be the popular fruit choice with others' recipes above. My process for the raspberries (these are from our backyard) is to freeze and thaw a few times, use a large spoon to press it through a mesh colander to acquire the pulp without seeds, put it in a large mason jar in a double boiler setup and bring it up to about 150-160 while constantly stirring, remove and cap the mason jar to let it cool to room temp, then add directly to the fermenter. I weighed out 1 lb/gal of raspberries which ended up resulting in about 0.75 lb/gal of pulp.
That beer looks sooo good! How does it taste? Give some tasting notes!

A part of me wants to use raspberries because it seems like the obvious choice but another part of me wants to use something different just to be different.
 
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stealthfixr

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Stalled, incomplete fermentation. I three in the 3lb of raspberry puree the afternoon of 5 August (see big dip/rise afterwards), activity went bezerk for a day-ish, then nothing. I am wondering if the acidity level went up enough from the fruit addition to kill off the remaining ethanol production. Certainly going going to be tasty anyway, but not as dry as hoped for. Even raised temps to offset, without any change.

I wonder if pitching Brett into this would be a good idea?
1597007955111.png
 

Tyler B

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Stalled, incomplete fermentation. I three in the 3lb of raspberry puree the afternoon of 5 August (see big dip/rise afterwards), activity went bezerk for a day-ish, then nothing. I am wondering if the acidity level went up enough from the fruit addition to kill off the remaining ethanol production. Certainly going going to be tasty anyway, but not as dry as hoped for. Even raised temps to offset, without any change.

I wonder if pitching Brett into this would be a good idea?
View attachment 693211
It seems weird that the gravity went down and then back up with the fruit addition. I think it will be fine even with the slightly higher FG. I wouldn't worry about it. Anxious to see how this turns out. Keep us posted!
 
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stealthfixr

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Down to 1.015 this morning...I guess it is still working, even if very slowly.
 

Tyler B

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For anyone who is interested... A little bit on pitch rate and wort pre-acidification from Matthew Farber (the PhD whose lab researched Philly Sour).

"Regarding pre-acidification of the mash. In theory it will lower the pH of the final beer, however there are so many variables that can affect pH, chief among them, the alkalinity of your water which may buffer some of the acid. While we (and some commercial brewers) have used some acidulated malt, it has only been to dial in the pH of the mash. What is most important in my opinion is a mash pH in the range of 5.2-5.5 which is optimal for amylase activity and thereby will give you a more fermentable wort. More glucose = more lactic acid. If you wanted to make a more sour beer, I would 1) make your mash as fermentable as possible and 2) Add glucose (2% is a good starting point).

That being said we have some lab-scale data that Philly Sour can ferment a wort pre-acidified (with straight lactic acid) to pH 3, but not pH of 2.

Regarding pitch rate, I am admittedly naive to what forumula or standards were used in the Lallemand calculator . With our lab stocks, we can generate liquid yeast, and have found 1x10^6/mL/dP to be the optimal pitch rate. We increase pitch rate with high gravity beers as your normally would. With Philly Sour now an active dry yeast, lallemand pitches by weight not by cell count. I cannot recall any data from Lallemand that looked at increase the pitch rate with increased gravity. But my recommendation would be to scale it up as you would any dry yeast.


I was super excited to get the response and share it with all of you.
 

RPh_Guy

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For anyone who is interested... A little bit on pitch rate and wort pre-acidification from Matthew Farber (the PhD whose lab researched Philly Sour).

"Regarding pre-acidification of the mash. In theory it will lower the pH of the final beer, however there are so many variables that can affect pH, chief among them, the alkalinity of your water which may buffer some of the acid. While we (and some commercial brewers) have used some acidulated malt, it has only been to dial in the pH of the mash. What is most important in my opinion is a mash pH in the range of 5.2-5.5 which is optimal for amylase activity and thereby will give you a more fermentable wort. More glucose = more lactic acid. If you wanted to make a more sour beer, I would 1) make your mash as fermentable as possible and 2) Add glucose (2% is a good starting point).

That being said we have some lab-scale data that Philly Sour can ferment a wort pre-acidified (with straight lactic acid) to pH 3, but not pH of 2.

Regarding pitch rate, I am admittedly naive to what forumula or standards were used in the Lallemand calculator . With our lab stocks, we can generate liquid yeast, and have found 1x10^6/mL/dP to be the optimal pitch rate. We increase pitch rate with high gravity beers as your normally would. With Philly Sour now an active dry yeast, lallemand pitches by weight not by cell count. I cannot recall any data from Lallemand that looked at increase the pitch rate with increased gravity. But my recommendation would be to scale it up as you would any dry yeast.


I was super excited to get the response and share it with all of you.
Matthew Farber ... He co-authored Mastering Brewing Science Quality and Production (2019)
I knew his name sounded familiar but it took a moment to click.

Absolutely no reason to [pre-sour].
I'd say he agrees.

Cheers
 
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Gravity down to 1.014

I could not take it any longer. I took a sample and tasted it...and...oh my gosh, it is good! Like a real, no kidding, not lactic acid added-in on the backside, is this a less aggressive relative of a lambic sour. Not puckering sour (forgot to measure pH), but not hard to miss...just the right amount. Raspberries come through, but in a wonderful balance. Really, really, really good. My wife is not a beer fan, and her eyes opened wide in pleasant surprise upon tasting it. I would say my expectations were exceeded on that sample alone. And, some carbonation & cold conditioning will not hurt one little bit. Color me impressed, Philly Sour!

I will brew this again, and perhaps soon. Kegging was planned to be this weekend, but with the gravity still slowly ticking down, I will wait until I get three days at the same gravity.
 

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Raspberries come through, but in a wonderful balance. Really, really, really good.
What stage of fermentation did you at the raspberries and how? I am thinking about doing a similar beer with Philly Sour, and have some packaged frozen raspberries. Am I ok to throw them (thawed) into primary after day 4-5? Or even earlier at yeast pitch?
 
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stealthfixr

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What stage of fermentation did you at the raspberries and how? I am thinking about doing a similar beer with Philly Sour, and have some packaged frozen raspberries. Am I ok to throw them (thawed) into primary after day 4-5? Or even earlier at yeast pitch?
I added the raspberry puree (3lb) at about 1.020 in the fermentation--you can see the addition point in the graph above where there's a large dip/rise. I suspect the resulting souring from the fruit may have curtailed ethanol production and lowered attenuation. When I make this again, I will wait until primary fermentation is mostly done before adding the fruit.
 

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Gravity down to 1.014

I could not take it any longer. I took a sample and tasted it...and...oh my gosh, it is good! Like a real, no kidding, not lactic acid added-in on the backside, is this a less aggressive relative of a lambic sour. Not puckering sour (forgot to measure pH), but not hard to miss...just the right amount. Raspberries come through, but in a wonderful balance. Really, really, really good. My wife is not a beer fan, and her eyes opened wide in pleasant surprise upon tasting it. I would say my expectations were exceeded on that sample alone. And, some carbonation & cold conditioning will not hurt one little bit. Color me impressed, Philly Sour!

I will brew this again, and perhaps soon. Kegging was planned to be this weekend, but with the gravity still slowly ticking down, I will wait until I get three days at the same gravity.
This is great news! Your comment on the lambic is interesting. Do you have any experience brewing sours traditionally or via kettle sour? Not that your excitement isn't good for us to hear, too, just curious to know if you have a personal basis for comparison.
 
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Okay, beyond the initial “it’s really a sour” euphoria, it’s now kegged and carbonated. The pH turned out to be 3.30, and color wise is Pink-ish after the raspberry purée addition. Final gravity was 1.014, so 74% attenuation. Taste wise, perhaps lambic comparisons were...premature. It’s a definite sour beer, but not as complex as a lambic. That said, this Gose is awesome. My family described it as the perfect summer beer. Everyone that’s tried it (five so far) has loved it. I will brew with it again!
 

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Okay, beyond the initial “it’s really a sour” euphoria, it’s now kegged and carbonated. The pH turned out to be 3.30, and color wise is Pink-ish after the raspberry purée addition. Final gravity was 1.014, so 74% attenuation. Taste wise, perhaps lambic comparisons were...premature. It’s a definite sour beer, but not as complex as a lambic. That said, this Gose is awesome. My family described it as the perfect summer beer. Everyone that’s tried it (five so far) has loved it. I will brew with it again!
Thanks for continuing to update. I'm all setup to brew tomorrow morning and planning to go ahead with my gose which is very similar to your recipe. Going with blueberries just to try something different since everyone else is using raspberries (my original plan too). I'll also pre-acidify a bit and add some glucose.

I have a couple questions... Is the NaCl noticeable in your gose and are you happy with the results? Also, how long did you leave the beer in contact with the fruit?

I'll probably add fruit after one week, leave it for another 7-10 days, then keg to finish up. Can't wait to drink this one!
 

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Okay, beyond the initial “it’s really a sour” euphoria, it’s now kegged and carbonated. The pH turned out to be 3.30, and color wise is Pink-ish after the raspberry purée addition. Final gravity was 1.014, so 74% attenuation. Taste wise, perhaps lambic comparisons were...premature. It’s a definite sour beer, but not as complex as a lambic. That said, this Gose is awesome. My family described it as the perfect summer beer. Everyone that’s tried it (five so far) has loved it. I will brew with it again!
How is attenuation calculated with late fruit additions? Do you add in the fruit sugars to the starting gravity for the calc or ignore them?
 

Tyler B

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Not sure what stealthfixr did, but I add fruit additions on Brewer's Friend. You can probably do it on Beersmith too (not sure though).
 
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