Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

[Holtza]

My first brew using Philly Sour (first sour brew ever, actually - and fifth batch ever) is currently in primary.

Grain bill is 93% base malt and 7% wheat (it's what I had left, so I threw it in).
Citra for aroma and light bitterness, IBU 28.
One pack of yeast for a batch of 11 L/2.9 gallon.
OG: 1.058.

After 5 days at 22°C, gravity is at 1.020 and it has a nice acidity (will test pH next time I draw a sample). Flavor reminds me of green apple, might be the citrusy notes from the hops playing into that as well. My original plan was to rack on pineapple and cocout for a couple of weeks in secondary. After tasting it, I think about half will go directly into bottles after primary - I'm interested to see how it will develop.

I'm following the repitch conversation with interest, as I plan on making an attempt at it as well.

 

[t1m1]

Any experience with re-pitching this yeast?

 

[Tyler B]

Repitched a yeast cake into a 150L batch yesterday at my friend's brewery. I'll report back as soon as I have useful feedback.

As for the batch that the cake came from, it turned out nice. No fruit added to half of it, average gravity, 1 pack/5 gallon pitch rate. Initial tastings weren't sour at all but it has a very balanced sourness and complexity to it now. Almost Bretty. The plain/no fruit half has some pineapple notes as well. Pretty solid on its own. The other half had raspberry added to it and this yeast really plays well with raspberry. It's excellent!

I'll update on the big repitch batch soon.

 

[couchsending]

From what I’ve read due to the acidic environment it creates it can lose viabilty really quickly. Same reason you don’t repitch normal Sacc used to ferment a kettle sour.

 

[Kenmoron]

Interestingly, I’ve repitched it myself and have heard of a few others try the same with a similar result...beer that’s not that sour. It seems to ferment just fine but fails to drop the pH as drastically as the initial pitch. I’ve only attempted once so far and have no way of determining if there was contamination by a normal sacc or not (I play with mixed ferm stuff and have yet to have a cross contamination *knock on wood*). But I found it odd that a few others (on Reddit/r/homebrewing) have had the same experience. It doesn’t seem to me as much of a viability thing as much as a possible adaptation thing. I’d love to hear from someone who successfully gets a sour beer on a repitch.

 

[CEBrewer]

View attachment 701294
Eight days after pitching 1 packet into 5 gal of 1.050 SG wort. Airlock activity has nearly stopped and it has dropped clear for the most part. My FG is at 1.017. Aroma of pear and peach. It has a very nice sourness. pH reads at 3.05. I tested the pH prior to pitching the Philly Sour and the pH was at 5.67. I'm impressed with how easy this was. I did not add any extra glucose to the wort. Temp has been between 66 and 72F in my basement. When I have more time to tend to it this will be fun to play with the variables and see how it responds, but so far I am very impressed with the results of my hands off approach. I'm hoping to keg it this weekend but I'll need to see if the SG is stable first.

I want to put some raspberry puree along side this for people to add as desired. Should I do anything other than mash the berries and strain out the seeds?

Follow up post: This has been a winner among people that like sours. Flavor profile is definitely Apple. Reminds you of a dry cider from a very sour apple! I'm going to try all the step discussed here to get more of the stonefruit flavors the next time I brew with this. pitch 2 packets, monitor fermentation temp, adjust sugar profile etc.

 

[Tyler B]

Update on the repitched cake... As others have said, it wasn't sour. It didn't really work, at all. It was weirdly funky but didn't have any sort of tartness to it. Quite strange. We ended up adding lactic acid to it but it still wasn't nearly as sour as the two other times I've pitched dry yeast straight from the Lallemand pack (both 1 pack/5 gallons and 2 packs/5 gallons).

I'll likely try again and pitch at a higher rate. I'll be sure to report back on my experiences.

 

[t1m1]

How about adding citric acid, just to make it sour enough but not lemony sour?

 

[Tyler B]

Didn't try it. My friend (brewery owner) took the lead on this. Citric acid may have improved it but it's too late now .

Also, funny enough, I JUST tried to buy citric acid the other day here in Vietnam and wasn't able to get it. Granted, I didn't really try that hard, but my chemical guy didn't have it.

 

[t1m1]

I think that it's actually needed only small amount to make sour beer sour enough and not taste affected.

 

[couchsending]

2nd attempt with Philly Sour is under way. Measured it yesterday and was at 3.28ph but hadn’t dropped a ton in gravity after 3 days. I mashed incredibly low for a long time but didn’t add any dextrose. Only pitched in packet but into a 1.044 wort which should be enough. I swear I still get this weird sweet tobacco like note from it. It’s not bad but definitely stronger than any apple or stone fruit. Fermenting it at 72 controlled.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

I posted this as it's own thread but I wanted to post it here too cause I hope it will bring me more answers or shared experiences.

So I'm making a frambroise using Philly Sour yeast and I got one of these raspberry flavor things that amoretti makes. It's an 8 oz (weight) bottle like here

My understanding is that I would add this at bottling (am I wrong?), and it says this thing has 4 grams of sugar...so I'm wondering should I just use this in place of my priming sugar? Or should I still add my priming sugar? Will this thing have too much sugar if I add the whole bottle to a five gallon batch and cause bottle bombs? Should I just add after primary fermentation; let it ferment; then rack and bottle with priming sugar?

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Anyone tried something other than a Berliner or Gose style with Philly Sour? While I am very happy with how my Gose turned out (keg is going quick), I am wondering how well it will do with, say, a Flanders Red or something similarly more malty style? I may mash lower next iteration to help the FG get lower too.

Might also add Brett on the backside, after the primary is done, to further add sour complexity and lower the FG even further. Would not be a full Lambic/Flanders Red, but might be more complex than just the lactic acid contribution alone.

I made a Rodenbach Grand Cru clone that I fermented with Philly Sour, Brettanomyces Lambicus, and Lallemand Abbaye. I let the Philly do it's thing for three days then added the brett and Abbaye yeast. I also added dextrose and lactose in the boil. Turned out very stone fruit and tangy. Not overly sour but definitely enough to please a sour fan. Definitely gave it more character. Helped it move past those red apple flavors and into more pineapple meets peach and berries territory. Super reccomend mixed fermentations with Philly sour and brett!

 

[beervoid]

I made a Rodenbach Grand Cru clone that I fermented with Philly Sour, Brettanomyces Lambicus, and Lallemand Abbaye. I let the Philly do it's thing for three days then added the brett and Abbaye yeast. I also added dextrose and lactose in the boil. Turned out very stone fruit and tangy. Not overly sour but definitely enough to please a sour fan. Definitely gave it more character. Helped it move past those red apple flavors and into more pineapple meets peach and berries territory. Super reccomend mixed fermentations with Philly sour and brett!

Im interested to test this out. Did the ph get at where you wanted it at day 3? Or are you counting on some sourness from Brett? How much brett character did you get? How much brett did you pitch?
I read pitching more brett will aid in getting more character sooner.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Im interested to test this out. Did the ph get at where you wanted it at day 3? Or are you counting on some sourness from Brett? How much brett character did you get? How much brett did you pitch?
I read pitching more brett will aid in getting more character sooner.

From the two previous times I've used the yeast, it seems like pH stops dropping by day three, and I didn't want the other yeasts competing with the philly until then. I'm at about three weeks of bottle conditioning and the brett flavor is present with some nice little barnyard notes in the aroma but the taste definitely is dominated by lactic acid. The red apple flavor is gone and is replaced with a more tangy citrus with pineapple and stone fruit. Although this change in flavor profile I got from the yeast could also be because of the dextrose or lactose I added to the boil or even cause of the Abbaye yeast. Because of the lactose I've added to the beer I'm interested to see how the brett flavor changes as it breaks down the lactose Sugars. I pitched one vial of white labs Brettanomyces Lambicus.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Im interested to test this out. Did the ph get at where you wanted it at day 3? Or are you counting on some sourness from Brett? How much brett character did you get? How much brett did you pitch?
I read pitching more brett will aid in getting more character sooner.

It's definitely one I'm going to let a case sit hidden for six months or so to see how the brett flavor changes.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

From the two previous times I've used the yeast, it seems like pH stops dropping by day three, and I didn't want the other yeasts competing with the philly until then. I'm at about three weeks of bottle conditioning and the brett flavor is present with some nice little barnyard notes in the aroma but the taste definitely is dominated by lactic acid. The red apple flavor is gone and is replaced with a more tangy citrus with pineapple and stone fruit. Although this change in flavor profile I got from the yeast could also be because of the dextrose or lactose I added to the boil or even cause of the Abbaye yeast. Because of the lactose I've added to the beer I'm interested to see how the brett flavor changes as it breaks down the lactose Sugars. I pitched one vial of white labs Brettanomyces Lambicus.

How much lactose is in those bottles? Are you aware that by every 2 points in gravity dropped by the Brett you're getting a full volume of CO2?

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

How much lactose is in those bottles? Are you aware that by every 2 points in gravity dropped by the Brett you're getting a full volume of CO2?

The lactose was added during the boil, It was 8oz in an eight gallon batch. Not sure how much that is per bottle but I underused what I normally would for priming sugar just to be safe.

 

[Tyler B]

I posted this as it's own thread but I wanted to post it here too cause I hope it will bring me more answers or shared experiences.

So I'm making a frambroise using Philly Sour yeast and I got one of these raspberry flavor things that amoretti makes. It's an 8 oz (weight) bottle like here
View attachment 705321
My understanding is that I would add this at bottling (am I wrong?), and it says this thing has 4 grams of sugar...so I'm wondering should I just use this in place of my priming sugar? Or should I still add my priming sugar? Will this thing have too much sugar if I add the whole bottle to a five gallon batch and cause bottle bombs? Should I just add after primary fermentation; let it ferment; then rack and bottle with priming sugar?

If it was me, I'd add it near the end of primary, straight into the primary FV, and then give it another week or so to ferment out all of those sugars. Then, bottle (maybe threeish weeks after brew day) with priming sugar as usual. Otherwise you'd have to worry about calculating how much sugar was in the flavoring and how that would impact carbonation. Probably not as reliable. Also, is there seeds in that stuff? A little extra time in primary might help prevent seeds getting in to your finished beer. Just my thoughts.

 

[Tyler B]

I made a Rodenbach Grand Cru clone that I fermented with Philly Sour, Brettanomyces Lambicus, and Lallemand Abbaye. I let the Philly do it's thing for three days then added the brett and Abbaye yeast. I also added dextrose and lactose in the boil. Turned out very stone fruit and tangy. Not overly sour but definitely enough to please a sour fan. Definitely gave it more character. Helped it move past those red apple flavors and into more pineapple meets peach and berries territory. Super reccomend mixed fermentations with Philly sour and brett!

Have you tried straight Philly Sour? I got a surprising amount of pineapple on my last plain Philly Sour batch. The other half, which I added raspberries to, was very fruity and complex. Probably my favorite, honestly. Then, my first batch, which I added blueberries to, obviously tasted like berries . Finally, my most recent batch, which I repitched, was barnyard funky. Kinda Bretty and not really sour at all. I'm really impressed with the range of flavors I'm getting from this yeast.

 

[t1m1]

My batch is in primary since Monday afternoon. Still no airlock activity, I measured pH yesterday and it was 3.57 with nice, kind of tropical, taste.

Will check gravity at Saturday-Sunday...

 

[stealthfixr]

My second Philly Sour attempt in the Spike CF5 and attenuated to 80% so far, still chuggin on Day 5 since pitching. Changes I made after attempt #1:
- Rehydrated yeast (2 packets for 1.052 SG) and used GoFerm before pitching
- Oxygenated wort for about half the normal time (direct O2 via stone for 30 seconds)
- Added 1lb Candi sugar--PS likes simple sugars
- Will not add fruit until primary is near FG, but I will add 6lb Tart Cherry puree soon
- Still mainly Pilsen & wheat malt, but added 1lb oats and 4oz carapils for body
- Also fermented under slight pressure (~3psi) at 76F--have not tasted yet, but it kept going with that pressure fine so far
- I'll cold crash this (as I now have a glycol chiller) when FG is stable after fruit added and yeast collected, about 40F for about 2 weeks

I had a slight drop in gravity about 12 hours after pitching, which was *much* faster than PS attempt #1 with the same amount of yeast. While still a slow fermentor, this batch is well ahead of #1, and attenuating further.

Attempt #1 was such a house fav that the keg just didn't last very long. I am hoping attempt #2, called Cherry Pie, will be even better.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

If it was me, I'd add it near the end of primary, straight into the primary FV, and then give it another week or so to ferment out all of those sugars. Then, bottle (maybe threeish weeks after brew day) with priming sugar as usual. Otherwise you'd have to worry about calculating how much sugar was in the flavoring and how that would impact carbonation. Probably not as reliable. Also, is there seeds in that stuff? A little extra time in primary might help prevent seeds getting in to your finished beer. Just my thoughts.

No seeds, it's just a straight syrup extract type product. I'm going to add it after primary fermentation like you suggested and wait so I don't have to play too many guessing games with carbonation.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Have you tried straight Philly Sour? I got a surprising amount of pineapple on my last plain Philly Sour batch. The other half, which I added raspberries to, was very fruity and complex. Probably my favorite, honestly. Then, my first batch, which I added blueberries to, obviously tasted like berries . Finally, my most recent batch, which I repitched, was barnyard funky. Kinda Bretty and not really sour at all. I'm really impressed with the range of flavors I'm getting from this yeast.

Yeah I've done two previous batches with it, one was just straight pilsner malt and hallertau hops, it's all lactic apple and peach flavor. Honestly it tastes like adult apple juice. Than I made a golden lavender sour using some vienna malt along with the pilsner with saaz and lemondrop hops. Much more complex, very citrusy but still pretty forward apple and peach flavor.

I just did a biere de garde with the washed yeast from my Philly/brett/Abbaye batch. It's still bottle conditioning but gravity sample didn't taste sour and odds are the Abbaye yeast would have outcompeted the **** out of it anyway. Hoping the brett is still around in there and makes it more interesting as it sits in the bottle.

 

[Kenmoron]

Update on the repitched cake... As others have said, it wasn't sour. It didn't really work, at all. It was weirdly funky but didn't have any sort of tartness to it. Quite strange. We ended up adding lactic acid to it but it still wasn't nearly as sour as the two other times I've pitched dry yeast straight from the Lallemand pack (both 1 pack/5 gallons and 2 packs/5 gallons).

I'll likely try again and pitch at a higher rate. I'll be sure to report back on my experiences.

So interesting that time and time again I keep hearing people are unable to sour with a repitch.

I recently snagged some of The Yeast Bay’s Berkeley Sour Lachancea blend. I’m excited to try and repitch it as they said you should be able to and still get sour beer.

 

[marc1]

Making a 10 gallon batch, so I made a starter from 1 packet. I tasted the supernatant when dumping it before pitching, and wow! Very, very peachy, with some apple-ish aftertaste that had a very slight tang. I'm excited to see what it does in this batch.

And what it did was taste very, very plain. Mild apple-ish flavor. Big disappointment after how interesting the starter wort tasted. pH only dropped to 3.87. 48% Pils/48% wheat malt, 4% sugar. Started fermentation at 75, raised to 77 after 2 days when the gravity had dropped from 1.037 to 1.017. Finished at 1.007.

Pulled some off to keg, then added raspberry and blackberry pie filling. After a week, it was down to 1.005 and pH 3.8. Cold crashed and left it until kegging tonight. Tastes fruit wine-y. Better than the bland unfruited one, but nothing worth doing this way again.

Looks like fresh packets are needed. I might try 3 next time for a 12 gallon to fermenter low-ish OG batch.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

And what it did was taste very, very plain. Mild apple-ish flavor. Big disappointment after how interesting the starter wort tasted. pH only dropped to 3.87. 48% Pils/48% wheat malt, 4% sugar. Started fermentation at 75, raised to 77 after 2 days when the gravity had dropped from 1.037 to 1.017. Finished at 1.007.

Pulled some off to keg, then added raspberry and blackberry pie filling. After a week, it was down to 1.005 and pH 3.8. Cold crashed and left it until kegging tonight. Tastes fruit wine-y. Better than the bland unfruited one, but nothing worth doing this way again.

Looks like fresh packets are needed. I might try 3 next time for a 12 gallon to fermenter low-ish OG batch.

I could be wrong but I think your starter blew your batch. It seems like this yeast does its Sour thing then does more alcohol converting, and from repitches it seems to not be doing any lactic production. So I wonder if your starter made you pitch a yeast that was in the middle of or near the end of it's lactic production phase that it wasn't going to repeat once added to your full wort.

 

[Tyler B]

So interesting that time and time again I keep hearing people are unable to sour with a repitch.

I recently snagged some of The Yeast Bay’s Berkeley Sour Lachancea blend. I’m excited to try and repitch it as they said you should be able to and still get sour beer.

Yeah, I thought for sure mine wouldn't be like the others... Man, was I wrong. I would like to try again at a higher pitch rate, though. Maybe a whole cake for a batch.

Good luck with your next batch!

 

[marc1]

I could be wrong but I think your starter blew your batch. It seems like this yeast does its Sour thing then does more alcohol converting, and from repitches it seems to not be doing any lactic production. So I wonder if your starter made you pitch a yeast that was in the middle of or near the end of it's lactic production phase that it wasn't going to repeat once added to your full wort.

I completely agree that the starter blew it. Maybe they need very special culture conditions to grow out.

 

[stealthfixr]

My second Philly Sour attempt in the Spike CF5 and attenuated to 80% so far, still chuggin on Day 5 since pitching. Changes I made after attempt #1:
- Rehydrated yeast (2 packets for 1.052 SG) and used GoFerm before pitching
- Oxygenated wort for about half the normal time (direct O2 via stone for 30 seconds)
- Added 1lb Candi sugar--PS likes simple sugars
- Will not add fruit until primary is near FG, but I will add 6lb Tart Cherry puree soon
- Still mainly Pilsen & wheat malt, but added 1lb oats and 4oz carapils for body
- Also fermented under slight pressure (~3psi) at 76F--have not tasted yet, but it kept going with that pressure fine so far
- I'll cold crash this (as I now have a glycol chiller) when FG is stable after fruit added and yeast collected, about 40F for about 2 weeks

I had a slight drop in gravity about 12 hours after pitching, which was *much* faster than PS attempt #1 with the same amount of yeast. While still a slow fermentor, this batch is well ahead of #1, and attenuating further.

Attempt #1 was such a house fav that the keg just didn't last very long. I am hoping attempt #2, called Cherry Pie, will be even better.

Follow-up, FG reached at 1.009 and the pH shown below...it's definitely sour! Two cherry puree cans (6lb) left a faint cherry taste--may augment with Amoretti concentrate. Yeast isn't falling out very quickly, but I just cold crashed to 40F and should be good before kegging in 5 days. Other than sour taste, the flavor is very clean for a 76F fermented temp (pressurized effect?)...love this yeast. Very pleased with the changes from batch #1 and resulting FG and pH.