Well he did say he has endless free access to yeast...
Definitely would be great if they increase the cell count but not if it makes it alot more expensive as alot of us start with single packs and build them up for that exact reason. I'm sure you can make good beer with 1 pack but that's the bare minimum and leaves little room for errors. Not to sound smug but I'm the type of brewer trying to make the best beer on the planet and will stop and almost nothing until I get there. Some brewers are just trying to make beer easily and aren't overly picky. Cheers
Yup. Which is why I posted the videos. Thought it was really against the grain
Well in his case its $0 for yeast.
Yeah, he can easily talk that way.
This is one of those homebrewer things. If your happy with "rather well" then you've succeeded. As I said above I'm aiming for professional product at home. I want to make a Pliny the elder clone and have mine chosen by a large group of people as the better version in a blind taste test. Maybe making a 5 litre starter only makes a 2% difference in the finished product that most can't taste. To me that 2% is worth the time and effort no matter how much time/effort/ money is required to get it. Don't take this as a elitist type thing I'm just saying we all have different end goals. My goal is 10/10 finished product. I would never and have never pitched a single vile into 5 gallons without at least a starter of some sort. CheersI'll bet he gets a deal on his smack packs.
I haven't watched the videos but I'm trying to figure out how I'm producing great beer without using three smack packs...or 2-liter starters.
I use one smack pack (or White Labs pure pitch tube) for everything I brew, including lagers. I never use more than a 1 liter starter, even for lagers. In fact, with lagers, I do a 1-liter starter, oxygenate the starter wort, and pitch that starter into the fermenter at roughly 18 hours after it begins. I don't crash the starter, I don't decant it, the whole 1 liter goes in. Then I let it sit at 70 degrees or so for another six hours before I start moving the temp down to 50 degrees.
I just kegged a dark lager today that I brewed 8 days ago. I could drink it right now, but I'm going to let it condition a bit.
My point is that I'm not doing anything close to what that biologist is saying, and my beer is doing....rather well.
I'll bet almost no one else is doing that that biologist is saying, either.
Well said. I agree
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. No doubt if you're happy with the beer you make keep doing it. However to suggest pitching a single pack of yeast with a 1L starter into a lager is abit of a stretch. The recommended pitch rate is 410 billion cells per 5g/1.050 batch. Your suggestion would only equal appx 251 which imho is WAY low. Alot of pros have to do 2 brews to fill a fermenter but there's no way there underpitching by that much with so much money at stake.cheers
I see where your going with it but not sure I agree that it would makeup the difference in that short of a time but of course do what works. I feel for the 1.50 of DME and a litre of tap water it's worth the extra insurance especially if your already making the starter. I also generally do larger batches so have more to loose than some if it's not excellent lol. Cheers
There's method to the madness, but I'm not saying it's the only way to do things. It works for me, and it's now my standard way of doing things. I don't do very high gravity beers, so I'd do bigger pitches and probably oxygenate partway through the fermentation (I've read to do this, but I don't do really big beers so it's from memory).Well said. Brew on. CheersI originally was playing with this approach because I was diddling around with LODO stuff. One of the things LODO people do is preboil the strike water to drive off oxygen (there's also a way to use yeast to deoxy water, but I preboil). Anyway, when we boil starter wort, what are we doing? Driving off oxygen. It occurred to me that perhaps I might like to oxygenate that starter wort. I know people will say the stir plate will oxygenate the wort, but it has to be slow, and since yeast need O2 to build cells walls....I had a hard time seeing how pitching yeast into deoxygenated starter wort was optimal.
So I do that, running O2 into the starter wort for 30 seconds before putting on the stir plate. And I pitch warm into the fermenter, into wort where the yeast can again reproduce before taking them down to 50 degrees. It may be unconventional--hell, it is unconventional--but I've had great success with it. I also couldn't figure out how it was optimal to crash the starter, decant, and then try to revive the yeast. Why not pitch while it's very active?
I'm just telling this story so it doesn't look like I'm a loony. I am, but don't want to look that way.
I don't know at what rate you give oxygen to your starter but you might not need to give it 30 sec. In the yeast book it say 5gal of worts only needs 1 minute of 1L/min to get up into the recommended range for optimal growth (8-10ppm). Most likely when you get your stir plate going any excess with be driven out just like CO2.I originally was playing with this approach because I was diddling around with LODO stuff. One of the things LODO people do is preboil the strike water to drive off oxygen (there's also a way to use yeast to deoxy water, but I preboil). Anyway, when we boil starter wort, what are we doing? Driving off oxygen. It occurred to me that perhaps I might like to oxygenate that starter wort. I know people will say the stir plate will oxygenate the wort, but it has to be slow, and since yeast need O2 to build cells walls....I had a hard time seeing how pitching yeast into deoxygenated starter wort was optimal.
So I do that, running O2 into the starter wort for 30 seconds before putting on the stir plate. And I pitch warm into the fermenter, into wort where the yeast can again reproduce before taking them down to 50 degrees. It may be unconventional--hell, it is unconventional--but I've had great success with it. I also couldn't figure out how it was optimal to crash the starter, decant, and then try to revive the yeast. Why not pitch while it's very active?
I'm just telling this story so it doesn't look like I'm a loony. I am, but don't want to look that way.
Unfortunately I don't have the time to watch that video currently but I will check it out when I get home. Of course pitching warm isn't a new thing but being able to pitch a 1L starter instead of the recommended 5L when pitching warm was new to me. Honestly though having the means to make the bigger starter I've never really looked into it. Learn something new every day. Cheers
There's no doubt you might make good beer even if you under pitch but I think there's also no doubt you can also have a bad beer due to under pitching. It's like driving without your seat belt. It might never be a problem but why take the chance? Not to start a big huge debate here but I imagine the people winning the homebrew contests and the top pro brewers would disagree that pitching the correct amount of yeast is a myth. If wyeast GAVE you 3 packs of yeast and your choices were pitch 1 and throw the rest away or pitch 3 would you still choose to underpitch? I'm curious what you see as the advantage of doing it that way. Cheers
Maybe in the specific style examples you've given underpitching would help. The conversation I was having was more specific to making lagers with a pretty substantial underpitch from the more standard method. Say your making a 1.050 lager. White labs GIVES you 5 packs of yeast free with the catch that you can ONLY use them for that single batch. You can't save them or give them away. Would you still choose to underpitch and throw the remaining packs away or would you pitch them all? I only asking as it seems to me the only reason to underpitch is it's less work and or less cost? CheersI would use one pack and store the other two or give them away to friends. I wouldn't pitch two or more as I consider this an over-pitch that has, at least for me, resulted in loss of yeast character on British and Belgian styles.
The question is whether or not one pack is under-pitching, and I don't think it is going by Wyeast's recommendations and my own empirical evidence. Reason being, when I pitch a healthy pack directly to the wort, I see activity in a 6 to 18 hour window, which is right where I want it to be (its usually 12). Any sooner and there are so many cells available that new ones aren't being produced. Significantly longer, and there aren't enough. Interestingly, I typically see activity sooner without a starter. The only time I had a 2 - 3 day delay was with a starter. It's of course not confirmation that a starter delays the process, but it is an interesting thing I've noticed on my system.
That said, it really comes down to what a person feels comfortable doing more than anything. If it works, I say roll with it.
