Question about new White Labs “Next Generation” yeast packets.

[camonick]

I haven’t bought liquid yeast lately but noticed a new packaging image for White Labs pure pitch yeast recently when shopping online for NEIPA ingredients. They sure talk it up on their website and make some interesting claims. Double the amount of yeast compared to previous packaging and a “commercially recommended pitching rate for standard ale ranges”. They also state— “Now with more yeast, get a foolproof fermentation without a starter. Following a commercially recommended pitching rate allowing you to pitch like the pros!”
I’m just curious if anyone else has been using it according to their marketing and if it’s performing as advertised?
I know yeast health is dependent on many variables, but assuming it’s been handled in a reasonable manner, not making a starter for a 5 gallon “standard ale” batch or possibly a 3 gallon lager would be cool.
I ordered a packet of their Coastal Haze, but will probably still go through the process of making a starter just because this particular recipe does have a slightly higher OG than “standard “.

Edit: sorry if this has already been discussed… I was being lazy and didn’t search for any other similar threads.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I think it's a market response to the upstarts such as Omega and Imperial who were putting more cells into their packages as a benefit over the big boys.

We all know (maybe) that it's not just cell numbers, but cell vitality that takes a fermentation from good to excellent. No number of extra cells in hibernation will beat a pitch from a fresh starter.

 

[tracer bullet]

No number of extra cells in hibernation will beat a pitch from a fresh starter.

100% agreed.

That said sometimes it's nice to be lazy, and put less work into some batches. For a lager or imperial stout I'll make a starter. For an ESB (not that I hold them in lower regard) it's nice to "just" pitch a pack of A09 pub and walk away.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Absolutely. And that ESB, or often best bitter in my case, is the starter for a strong ale or barleywine. Good is still good, eh?

 

[camonick]

That said sometimes it's nice to be lazy, and put less work into some batches.

I guess this I kind of what I was getting at… yet still get reasonably good results.

 

[DBhomebrew]

reasonably good results

Yes, I think a brewer can expect 'reasonably good results' from a fresh, properly maintained pack of commercial yeast in a wort of volume and gravity within the manufacturer's specification.

For better than 'reasonably good results', the lazy must get off their a** and do something more.

I find an SNS to be a perfect compromise for me.

 

[kurds_2408]

What about the fact that it is double the price of the old pack? It’s nice to be lazy but a starter doesn’t cost me $8 bucks to make. My LHBS (which was still only charging $7.99-$8.99) dropped White Labs completely about a month ago. The owner said no way any of his customers were gonna pay $16. He only carries Cellar Science now.

 

[camonick]

I guess I never took that into consideration and just grabbed some. Seems like I was paying $10-12 for the original smaller ones. I’ve seen the newer “next generation” packs for close to $20 at some sites.
Will definitely try to harvest and save this batch for sure.

 

[MaxStout]

New packaging!
New (higher) price!

 

[Malticulous]

IMO the only good thing is they all are 70ml and 150 billion cells. ~47ml should be 100.

I just ordered two WLP-300's for a half barrel batch. With the old ones I would need three. WLP-300 is a monster and I get better results with it without a starter. Otherwise it's blow off city and very little banana.

 

[Conehead]

I always make a starter because I do an over build.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Historically, for 5.5 gals of 1.060 or lower ale wort, I have had very good luck with a "100B cell pack" of White Labs or Wyeast pack and a 1L starter made the night prior (I moved to more of a SnS method a few years ago). I have used Imperial or Omega "200B cell packs" maybe 6 times and I have had good luck direct pitching a reasonably fresh pack. Making a vitality starter is never a bad thing, but I figured if I am paying the extra $4 to $5 for the larger cell count, I would take advantage of the larger cell count to simplify my brew day. I have also had good luck pitching a 100B cell pack into 2.7 gals of wort.

I have not used the new White Labs packs. I have seen them sold for between $1 more than Imperial to a $7 premium. I am not convinced they are "premium" vs Imperial or Omega packs. I have heard many contradictory statements from Chris White on the actual cell count per pack. The data White Labs points toward 150B cells, where Imperial says 200B cells and Omega 225B cells. I agree that cell count is not the only metric, but it is at least one metric. It would be interesting to see viability data of different manufacturers at 1 month vs 3 months vs 6 months.

For the past ~2 years, I have been using mostly dry yeast (sometimes I will harvest and repitch). I really enjoy the convenience, and cost savings of dry yeast. The quality and variety of dry yeast has continued to improve. There are a few strains where I have favorites in liquid versions though.

 

[shetc]

My LHBS has a sign at the checkout counter saying they are dropping White Labs as the new product is just too expensive.

 

[JAReeves]

I always do a starter because then I keep some to make the next starter. Certainly makes a high price tag better by amortizing it over several brews.

 

[Bassman2003]

My LHBS has a sign at the checkout counter saying they are dropping White Labs as the new product is just too expensive.

My now closed LHBS stopped carrying WL quite a few years ago. It is amazing how White Labs plans on staying in the homebrew market as they certainly seem pretty out of touch with their consumers. It was a pretty clear message a while back - we want more cells and better viability. Now many years later after they let the competition run through the open doors of the market they and WYeast owned, they come out with some form of larger cell count packaging at twice the price.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

White Labs plans on staying in the homebrew market as they certainly seem pretty out of touch with their consumers

Well, they did listen to our requests for a Chico strain in dry form that costs $10!

I feel like by now, somebody must have done a head to head with Dry WLP001 vs US-05 (or BRY-97), and also Dry WLP001 vs Liquid.

 

[Bassman2003]

I did a search but did not see any recent YouTube videos. They will appear at some point.

 

[hout17]

My LHBS has a sign at the checkout counter saying they are dropping White Labs as the new product is just too expensive.

I honestly can't remember the last time I used white labs. I still might try their new package offering though.

 

[shetc]

I honestly can't remember the last time I used white labs. I still might try their new package offering though.

My previous LHBS in Miami sold Omega and Imperial so likewise I haven't used White Labs and Wyeast in a long time. The place I'm using now has Wyeast and some Omega (no more White Labs). I was trying to convince them to carry Imperial but I've gone full circle back to mostly dry yeast anyway

 

[Medved]

I'm new to brewing, so don't have much to compare it to, but I am pretty impressed with the White Labs yeast I used in my first batch of ale. Concrete signs of fermentation only 8 hours after pitching and fermenting like mad another handful of hours after that. Have to see what kind of flavour it makes before the final judgement though.

 

[tracer bullet]

I am pretty impressed with the White Labs yeast I used in my first batch of ale

Definitely, it's a great yeast company. We're just not excited about the cost compared to the competition.

 

[Bobby_M]

I feel like by now, somebody must have done a head to head with Dry WLP001 vs US-05 (or BRY-97), and also Dry WLP001 vs Liquid.

I did. three way split on an IPA. 16 blind tasters that didn't know the variable.

10 preferred wlp001 liquid.
5 preferred wlp001 Dry
1 preferred US05 Dry.

All pitch rates calculated to be the same. Temps controlled. This is just one data point, not conclusive.

Edit: now that I'm at a keyboard I can expand on this post. One glitch in the controls of my three way experiment is that the keg that got the WLP001dry pitch had a little trouble with the PRV seal. Two times when I put a good amount of pressure into the headspace to start carbonating, it vented down to a few psi. I'm not concerned about oxygen exposure, but it may have vented out a little bit of the dry hop aroma and put it at a disadvantage to the liquid version. I likely won't repeat this one myself again because I'm still having trouble understanding the value add of the dry strain. I mean, people use dry because it's very shelf stable and relatively inexpensive but the WL version is too expensive for what it is in my opinion.

The discussion about yeast value is valid and interesting. I have regular access to WL and Omega because that's what I sell in my store. I think I've gone over this before in another thread but basically if I have a SUPER FRESH pack of omega in the strain I need, and I mean 2 weeks old, that's about a 193B cell pitch which is only a touch underpitched for 5.5 gallons of 1.055 (very typical for me). Any older than that or slightly higher gravity and I'm forced to make a starter. Either way, that pack is $8.99 and maybe another $2 for the starter.

Back when WL had the smaller pure pitch pouch for the same $8.99, I always had to make a starter anyway. Now that they have the NG packs (that I sell for $13.99) in theory/as advertised is a pitch and done situation but per the calculators, it's about a 50% underpitch at one pack even if it's 1 day old. So now, what I'm left with is situation where if I don't have a really fresh Omega pack, I already have to make a starter. Will it be the $13.99 NG or the $8.99 Omega? Long story short they REALLY should have stuck with the original purepitch "ice pop" package.

I THINK WL was targeting the homebrewers that were going to pitch a single pack into 5 gallon batch no matter what the calculators or anyone else says about pitch rates. For me, it was a big swing and a miss. I don't get quantity discounts on the new packs, though I did for the old ones. If Imperial ever started shipping homebrew packs from their East Coast location, I'd drop WL in a second.

I'm still evaluating whether there's value in carrying WL purely due to brand recognition. There are brewers who follow recipes and strive to match brands strictly. It SAYS I have to use WLPxxx and they don't want to hear that OMEGA's version is basically the same.

 

[AlexKay]

I did. three way split on an IPA. 16 blind tasters that didn't know the variable.

10 preferred wlp001 liquid.
5 preferred wlp001 Dry
1 preferred US05 Dry.

All pitch rates calculated to be the same. Temps controlled. This is just one data point, not conclusive.

Also, 001 vs 05 (Brulosophy) reported a significant difference but not a preference in a pale ale.

 

[dmtaylor]

The new packs are fine. Get twice as much yeast, pay twice as much for it. I just paid $15.99 for an effing pack of WLP028 which has no other equivalents. Beer turned out meh. I won't be doing that ever again.

 

[dmtaylor]

Also, 001 vs 05 (Brulosophy) reported a significant difference but not a preference in a pale ale.

This should be no surprise since these two yeasts are actually NOT super closely related.

 

[AlexKay]

This should be no surprise since these two yeasts are actually NOT super closely related.

Well, I was at least a little surprised ... these are supposedly "clean" yeasts in a fairly highly hopped beer. And I believe people usually overestimate how much they're able to taste. When I make IPAs I often just throw in whatever's handy ... though perhaps this is a wake-up call to stop doing that.

 

[wepeeler]

I guess I never took that into consideration and just grabbed some. Seems like I was paying $10-12 for the original smaller ones. I’ve seen the newer “next generation” packs for close to $20 at some sites.
Will definitely try to harvest and save this batch for sure.

That's my big issue. I think they're $25 on Morebeer and $30 on NB. I always make a starter with liquid yeast that I love for harvesting purposes. So it won't save me time, but I guess I'd start off with more cells.

 

[Mutant]

Marketing was drinking 'Bud Light' when they made the decision about selling PurePitch

 

[KepowOb]

That's my big issue. I think they're $25 on Morebeer and $30 on NB. I always make a starter with liquid yeast that I love for harvesting purposes. So it won't save me time, but I guess I'd start off with more cells.

That's nuts, I'm up in Canada and my LHBS has the next gen at $14.99... still a bit more than the other liquid option they carry (Escarpment Labs), but only a few dollars more.

 

[Bassman2003]

Considering that NB has the WLP001 "Next Gen" for $19.99 and the Imperial A07 for $12.99 and the Imperial gives you 50 bil more cells, seems like a no brainer. Morebeer has it for $15.99 which is still $3 more for less.

Having said all of that, I have always liked WLP001 and will probably find a way to get some and freeze it.

 

[pers]

Another WLP001 vs Dry.

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/yeast

 

[Bobby_M]

Another WLP001 vs Dry.

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/yeast

Cool, but jeez.... Pilsner malt and Hallertau hops with Chico?

 

[day_trippr]

As weird as it looks, I get it. They wanted to create a lab-grade concoction of so little substance that any yeast characters of note would shine through...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

I THINK WL was targeting the homebrewers that were going to pitch a single pack into 5 gallon batch no matter what the calculators or anyone else says about pitch rates. For me, it was a big swing and a miss.

Right, 'cuz if you don't think pitch rates matter, why would you care if there are a few more cells in the pack?

 

[Mutant]

When I was more regularly brewing beer, I would keep Duran Blue Cap Lab Bottles that were pre-filled with water that was sterilized by boiling them. I'd keep them in a kegerator dedicated to storing yeast and other things below 40F. Then, when I cranked up my yeast on the stir plate, I'd produce a little extra yeast to save for future use in these bottles. At my peak, I probably had 15 to 20 different yeasts available and didn't have to constantly repurchase new yeast. I tracked each yeasts' propagation history in Excel and would know when it was time to just purchase fresh yeast. That kept my costs down significantly.

 

[VikeMan]

Double the amount of yeast compared to previous packaging and a “commercially recommended pitching rate for standard ale ranges”.

When the Next Gen packs were first announced, I heard (or maybe assumed) that they had double the cell count, and I have since seen a lot of people saying that. But if we believe the nominal 100B cells per toothpaste tube for the older version, it's not double.

From the Next Gen pack:
"Use One Pouch Per 5 Gallons = 7.5 Million Cells/mL"

5 gallons is ~ 18,927 mL, so...
7.5 Million Cells/mL x 18,927 mL ~= 151.9 Billion Cells

So instead of double, it's a 52% increase.

 

[Bassman2003]

I think this is at the heart of my chagrin and maybe others'. White Labs is doing the corporate double speak shuffle with a large price increase. I wish them luck but nothing I care to be a part of outside of WLP001. I see it as odd in a space with well defined competitors that are leading in many respects. But they know their numbers.

 

[Bassman2003]

Another WLP001 vs Dry.

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/yeast

This test turned out exactly as I would expect - Liquid produces the best outcome and some dry products are close. Kind of surprised the WL dry was so far away from their liquid offering since they probably tried to mimic in product development. At least one would think

 

[Conehead]

My LHBS has a sign at the checkout counter saying they are dropping White Labs as the new product is just too expensive.

My local store here sells some of the new yeast for $24.00. Nope, not ever for that price.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think this is at the heart of my chagrin and maybe others'. White Labs is doing the corporate double speak shuffle with a large price increase. I wish them luck but nothing I care to be a part of outside of WLP001. I see it as odd in a space with well defined competitors that are leading in many respects. But they know their numbers.

Yeah, I felt a bit gutted when they told me Next Gen was REPLACING the small packs. I decided that White Labs pure pitch (smaller tubes) were going to replace Wyeast in my shop. At the time, it was a great decision because at the very least it promised much longer viability (shelf life) which really matters to shops.