Die_Beerery
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Weyermann Barke Pilsner - I made FIRE!
- Thread starter passedpawn
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Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
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Example:
"While 15 tasters (p<0.05) would have had to identify the unique sample in order to reach statistical significance, only 13 (p=0.10) made the accurate selection, indicating participants in this xBmt could not reliably distinguish an IPA made with a 7.4 oz/209.4 g dry hop charge from one made with an 11 oz/311.8 g dry hop charge."
Note that 13 tasters accurately selected the different sample, and that p=0.10.
This means that if there were no detectable difference between the beers, there was only a 10% chance that 13 or more tasters would get it right. But they did. To translate that into "indicating participants in this xBmt could not reliably distinguish" is misleading as hell. Anyone reading those words and not thoroughly familiar with triangle testing and p values would be very likely to think "the results show that there's no difference." I can't even count the number of times I've seen forum posters quote results like that as "proof" that Brulosophy debunked something.
I do not know what it is made of but if you heat up the gelatin in a covered jar then take a whiff, it sure smells like a dairy farm.Note that gelatin is neither from horses (normally pigs/cows), nor hooves. Hooves make keratin, not gelatin. Gelatin is what you get when you boil the skin and bones.
I guess if you're vegan, or bound to reinheitsgebot, gelatin is out. I'm none of those
edit: I have to admit even though it smells bad I do occasionally still use it.
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RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Just wanted to add to what @VikeMan said...
My main objection to their stats is that they have zero interest in achieving enough power to prevent a type II error (false negative), which is especially relevant since they usually fail to reject the null hypothesis.
Furthermore many of their experiments lack adequate internal and external validity because of poor methodology.
Isn’t the point of the way Brülosophy states their findings have to do with random chance vs the significance of the number of correct selections the triangle test?
If their threshold for “reliable” were lower as you are stating them the chance that those selections were equal to random chance would be increased so much as to make the comparison meaningless.
Ok, so maybe I'll just keep avoiding gelatin and stick with the 30 day lagering scheme
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
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My issue is the misleading words. If they were to add this one note prominently, I wouldn't object:
"It should be noted that if there were no difference, on average we would expect 9 or 10 of the tasters to make the correct selection. But 13 (or more) did, which if there were no difference, was only 10% likely to happen."
Ok, so maybe I'll just keep avoiding gelatin and stick with the 30 day lagering scheme
I bought some water treatment and finings secondhand from a brewer getting out of the hobby last year sometime and a bottle of gelatin was included. I only bottle, so I haven't bothered looking into using it much, but I'm usually a little jealous when I see the results with it. But with that being said, most of my beers are clear at packaging, then haze up in the fridge for a week or so, then drop pretty darn clear again. I use it as a reminder to be patient
Honestly, every keg gets the "low 'n' slow" cold carbonation treatment anyway, which at the minimum runs a few days over two weeks. And it's fairly rare that a keg is ready and immediately goes into the keezer - usually there's at least a week, often many.
So, just keeping the kegs cold has worked - at least to the point that any chill haze then becomes apparent. And that would be the one thing I'd want to see if I could drop and get rid of in the first couple pours...
Cheers!
So, just keeping the kegs cold has worked - at least to the point that any chill haze then becomes apparent. And that would be the one thing I'd want to see if I could drop and get rid of in the first couple pours...
Cheers!
My vote...there are enough threads dedicated to hate on Brulosophy that it just detracts from useful threads like this to keep hashing it out over and over.
I can agree there-that is a more thorough and accurate explanation-but these days with the dumbing down of the masses a simpler and more concise explanation as they typically give is usually more digestible to the masses.
it doesn’t make either wrong or right and in theory doesn’t change the statistics-but depending on the aptitude of the observer it may steer their opinions as they don’t fully grasp the information being given-in the form it’s presented.
I probably haven’t been around long enough to find them-then Agni don’t go looking for them either.
I can’t grasp “hate” for any person/source/entity who is genuinely trying to provide informational brewers and brewing and better the understanding of the art and science behind it so that we can all better beer if we choose.
I guess I don’t believe they’re really coming from a place with an ulterior motive to misinform or misrepresent-if anyone really truly does believe that I guess I feel badly for them.
Apologies for making this thread about that-it wasn’t my intent.
beersk
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I am reminded of the scene in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where the Frenchman continues to argue about how they acquired a coconut way up in England.
The thing about Brulosophy themselves is that they have repeatedly stated that each exbeeriment is only ONE data point. It does not necessarily PROVE anything. Either way, I think the point, really, is decide for yourself. After all, the beauty of it is we can decide what we want to do; free country and all...
The thing about Brulosophy themselves is that they have repeatedly stated that each exbeeriment is only ONE data point. It does not necessarily PROVE anything. Either way, I think the point, really, is decide for yourself. After all, the beauty of it is we can decide what we want to do; free country and all...
Well said beersk
OP
OP
Except it's all horribly off topic. In that respect, better to say nothing than to blather on and on, feeding the thing. Sadly decorum in all respects left with Elvis.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
Yep, you're either on the bus, off the bus, or going, wait, why the he
are these guys talking about bus routes?OT somewhere way back I mentioned I had made a Helles with all Barke Pilsner and didn't think I'd do that again, but that it would probably be great as a Pilsner grist. Well I've finally got one spunding, and am about to brew another, and can already predict this may be my default Pilsner for a while. Really can stand alone with the counterpoint of the hopping of a Pilsner. In fact in Pilsners where I've mixed in some other grains -- Barke Munich or CaraHell -- those just muddied things, whereas with other Pilsner malts they were needed to give a balanced malt flavor. Only in a Helles or Festbier might some extra malt notes be welcome. IMHO, YMMV, YMCA, MSRP, etc.
On another note I just bought 10 lb Barke Pilsner and am going to do my first decoction in the coming weeks (when I have time)... 
When I get the new setup finally dialed in I'll prob do the brown ale and porter first (non lodo) and when I do the pilsner I'll try the mash cap and deox of the strike water ...
Wish I had time to get it done earlier...my dad's 70th birthday is coming up and Andech's is his favorite beer...was hoping this would be somewhat similar (at least to a non-beer nerd).
When I get the new setup finally dialed in I'll prob do the brown ale and porter first (non lodo) and when I do the pilsner I'll try the mash cap and deox of the strike water ...
Wish I had time to get it done earlier...my dad's 70th birthday is coming up and Andech's is his favorite beer...was hoping this would be somewhat similar (at least to a non-beer nerd).
Very cool, hope it works out.
Has he ever been to the monastery? I'd have loved to have taken my dad there. My wife and I took our oldest son (who was doing his junior year in London) there for dinner and a hella lot of beer (the mugs are HUGE!) and it was an experience I'll never forget...
Cheers!
Yeah! We went when I was 16 and I got ein Großes Bier und eine Schweinehackse...probably mispelled that, but it was amazing!
He had been to Germany on so many business trips and brought us souvenirs while I was very young, so it was especially cool to go with him and be able to have a beer too!
That's so cool that you got to go with your son! I'll never forget going either!
He had been to Germany on so many business trips and brought us souvenirs while I was very young, so it was especially cool to go with him and be able to have a beer too!
That's so cool that you got to go with your son! I'll never forget going either!
monkeymath
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... And here I am, with Kloster Andechs less than an hour away, and I think I've only been once or twice... ^^
Shame on me, I ought to go there again (once the C-word is over)
The other day I put my Helles made with 100% 'Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner' in the fridge. Can't wait to try it. Tasting the malt itself, I loved the taste, but thought it was too caramelly-nutty for a Helles; it was kind of like halfway between their regular Pilsner and Crisp Maris Otter. But the aroma on bottling day was pure sublime lager-stink; I hope that hasn't gotten away. I really wished I had a keg, so I could just seal in all the flavour.
Ooh floor malted is always interesting! I can't say that I know in *general* the kind of difference it makes for all types of malts, but have tended to find it more "artisanal" to be way too ambiguous about it...
Can't wait to hear your tasting notes!
Can't wait to hear your tasting notes!
OP
OP
That vienna lager (i.e., just vienna malt) is da bomb. Making another this weekend.
Gelatin coats my teeth. I used it in 2 beers with the same results. I never used it again.Ok, so maybe I'll just keep avoiding gelatin and stick with the 30 day lagering scheme
Right, and thanks for that (ugh).
I still have yet to get motivated to use gelatin. Eventually I might try it on half a batch of a pils, maybe, just to see if it makes any difference, but with all the neipa's, wheats and stouts I brew these days there's no place for gelatin
Cheers!
I still have yet to get motivated to use gelatin. Eventually I might try it on half a batch of a pils, maybe, just to see if it makes any difference, but with all the neipa's, wheats and stouts I brew these days there's no place for gelatin
Cheers!
Beer666
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Sorry if i misunderstand but are you saying you can detect gelatin after fining your beer? I have only ever used isinglass.
beersk
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But do those beers get AS clear? I'll never use gelatin again, but I've had good results with biofine. I'm almost out of it and trying to decide if I should get more. I do use those floatie dip tub thingies as well. I noticed the beers I used biofine on got really nice and bright, seemingly brighter than beers I make that don't get fined at all. Could just be my imagination, but they looked filtered. I loved it.
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I generally do not use clarifiers if I can get by without it. In the past I've used gelatin with very good results for those few beers that I want to be especially clear and in which I want it to happen quickly. Works fine (so to speak) and no negative effects that I can perceive. Still, it always seems like "cheating" somehow, though I don't know what makes me feel that way.
I've been brewing quite a few lagers and light ales lately that I wanted to have sparkle and shine but didn't want to cold condition for a couple of months, so I thought I'd try Biofine. Used it on two different beers and was seriously underwhelmed (disappointed). Rather than following up with a gelatin fining, I used some keiselsol followed a day later with chitosan, a process I always use in wine making that yields fantastic results in just a few days. I'd never used it before in beer brewing since I heard it strips away body and flavor compounds in beer. Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's because the beers were a light lager and a blonde ale, but I really couldn't detect a lack of flavor or body in either one. And they were 'Very Brilliant' clarity.
I also "K & C'd" my next two beers to validate the results. The first was a hoppy West Coast IPA (just kicked last night, after going really fast) and an Irish Red ale that's settling in the kegerator right now (replaced the IPA on the tap list). The IPA wasn't as clear as the first two, but neither did it lack body or hoppiness. I'll let you know about the Red Ale tomorrow
.I like clearer beers, but only fanatical about certain styles. I only use fining agents less than 30% of the time, mostly because of the type of beer I'm brewing. Biofine didn't give me anything close to the results I was expecting or looking for. Gelatin does an amazing job in a relatively short time, but makes me feel as if I'm cheating somehow. Kieselsol and Chitosan clear even better and faster than gelatin, but with the reported risk (which I didn't detect) of thinning body and flavor loss, but it still feels like cheating. Extended cold conditioning/lagering will help to clarify beer, but not to the extent that fining agents do. At least that's my experience. YMMV.
Bilsch
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Yes, hard to explain.
Reviving this thread. I used Weyermann Barke Pilsner malt for the first time today. I hit all my numbers as planned and should have a wonderful 5% German Pilsner in a few weeks when the yeast finish their job. I have received a 41 score with this recipe using other malt and I’m interested to see if there is any kind of noticeable difference between the two versions. Temperature corrected OG of 1.047
What's the rest of the recipe - hops and water profile?
I can only dream of that clarity of wort going into the fermenter...
100% pils malt mashed @149°
60 minute boil
Tettnang for 60 minutes
Mittelfrueh @ 15 & 1
Total IBUs ≈35
1/3 whirlfloc tablet @5 minutes
Distilled water treated with brewing salts to: Ca=59, Mg=8, Na=16, Cl=63, SO4=93
Estimated pH 5.4
Oleson M.D.
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That looks like a great recipe.
All you need is a single malt for the grain bill.
However, to get more depth-of-character, we did a two malt German Pils.
Weyermann & Avangard, both Pilsner malts.
Other than that, your recipe is nearly a clone of ours.
We use Diamond Lager Yeast for all of our Pils / Lagers.
10.5 gallons
Before boil gravity - 1.043
After Boil OG - 1.052
9.5 lbs Avangard Premium Pils Malt
9.5 lbs Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils
Step infusion mash (30 min rests), 144, 156, 162, and mash out at 170.
90 minute boil.
2.5 oz Tettnanger Hops (5.9 AA) full 90 minutes.
3.0 oz Hallertau (3.7 AA) 10 minutes.
IBU = 32.9
Harvested Diamond Lager yeast pitched...the XX generation.
SRM = 3.5
Water = City tap filtered. No additions.
All you need is a single malt for the grain bill.
However, to get more depth-of-character, we did a two malt German Pils.
Weyermann & Avangard, both Pilsner malts.
Other than that, your recipe is nearly a clone of ours.
We use Diamond Lager Yeast for all of our Pils / Lagers.
10.5 gallons
Before boil gravity - 1.043
After Boil OG - 1.052
9.5 lbs Avangard Premium Pils Malt
9.5 lbs Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils
Step infusion mash (30 min rests), 144, 156, 162, and mash out at 170.
90 minute boil.
2.5 oz Tettnanger Hops (5.9 AA) full 90 minutes.
3.0 oz Hallertau (3.7 AA) 10 minutes.
IBU = 32.9
Harvested Diamond Lager yeast pitched...the XX generation.
SRM = 3.5
Water = City tap filtered. No additions.
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Fermentation particulars? Time, temp.
5 gallon batch. 2 packets dry 34/70 sprinkled on top. 2-3 (depending on my schedule) weeks at 54°, no D rest. Cold crash 2-3 days, transfer to keg and add gelatin. Proceed as usual for your carbonation process.
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