Domestic Ingredients

[beersk]

My god!! Convert those prices to Canadian dollars and see what you get. What's going on? Unbelievable.

I don't know, honestly. Some shops are charging reasonable prices and others, like Northern Brewer, are just astronomical. I shouldn't have to pay more than a dollar/pound for something like Rahr or Briess, which are both Midwest maltsters, by any shop in the Midwest. But they're charging twice that. Plus shipping! And Northern Brewer really isn't much of a homebrew shop anymore, most of it is a warehouse not open to the public. I visited the NB last spring and was disappointed that it was a tiny shop these days.

 

[AlexKay]

I do not quite get how a local maltster has a product that is priced the same as a German competitor. It seems to me there should be some savings for the end consumer. Volume plays a part no doubt but I will never try it if I can get solid continental malts for the same or lower price. If I could pick it up at the maltster it might be better but then you are not supporting your LHBS...

The reason to buy local is if they're making higher-quality products or making things the big houses aren't. Or if you want to support your local economy. Maybe the carbon footprint is lower with less shipping, though my guess is that higher energy efficiency at big malthouses means it probably goes the other way. But your local place will never be able to compete on price; economies of scaling up 100x to 1000x are overwhelming.

I would argue there's just as much reason to support the small business that is your local maltster as the small business that is your LHBS.

Craft brewers will never compete on price with legacy macro, either. The only way that homebrewing can end up cheaper is if you think your time is free.

 

[McMullan]

I asked about the high prices here on our Canadian Beer forum and got quite a few responses from homebrew shop owners. They said it is not just the ingredients that make up the price. Utilities and taxes are high here in Canada and that all has to go into the price of ingredients. They said they are under a lot of pressure to raise prices just to make a living.

The key to any successful business is to sell products and services at a fair price, not expect to be bailed out by customers. Tough times for most these days. Businesses and shareholders need to adjust their expectations down.

 

[beersk]

The reason to buy local is if they're making higher-quality products or making things the big houses aren't. Or if you want to support your local economy. Maybe the carbon footprint is lower with less shipping, though my guess is that higher energy efficiency at big malthouses means it probably goes the other way. But your local place will never be able to compete on price; economies of scaling up 100x to 1000x are overwhelming.

I would argue there's just as much reason to support the small business that is your local maltster as the small business that is your LHBS.

Craft brewers will never compete on price with legacy macro, either. The only way that homebrewing can end up cheaper is if you think your time is free.

Interesting info on the economies of scale. I was thinking less shipping, less carbon footprint by going local, even with a bigger maltster like Briess, which is local-ish for me. My time, as a homebrewer, is free to me. I have lots of it and homebrewing is one of my biggest passions. No cost there, in my opinion.

 

[Bassman2003]

Good points @AlexKay I guess I am not of the opinion that a local craft maltster is necessarily going to make a better product than the well known maltsters that have been in business for 100+ years. Support is great. Beating the big boys is another thing. It is not like the famous German or UK malts are lacking imho. Someday I might try some but it is tough to justify when there is price parity.

We have TexMalt in Fort Worth. I have not researched them much. Their website says they have been perfecting the malting process for five years. Tough to compare to the Euro maltsters with that metric and the price of their malt is similar to the Euro malt at my LHBS. I am sure it is fine and makes beer though. Personally, I need more of an incentive to try some batches though.

 

[beersk]

Good points @AlexKay I guess I am not of the opinion that a local craft maltster is necessarily going to make a better product than the well known maltsters that have been in business for 100+ years. Support is great. Beating the big boys is another thing. It is not like the famous German or UK malts are lacking imho. Someday I might try some but it is tough to justify when there is price parity.

We have TexMalt in Fort Worth. I have not researched them much. Their website says they have been perfecting the malting process for five years. Tough to compare to the Euro maltsters with that metric and the price of their malt is similar to the Euro malt at my LHBS. I am sure it is fine and makes beer though. Personally, I need more of an incentive to try some batches though.

Mostly agree. Though the biggest of the big maltsters in Germany don't have a huge step up in quality over some domestic malts. Best Malz is way better than Weyermann in my opinion. Barke pils is bland. Best Malz pils is grand. But I don't really know how much more can be discussed on this. It's a matter a preference really at this point. The reason I started this thread was to have these types of discussions. I like the idea of using stuff grown and malted near me, not necessarily "craft" malt. As mentioned already, they're charging astronomical prices for questionable quality. I've used some and it's definitely right to question the quality.
But having said that, is it really about quality or is it about the principle and ethics of using more local ingredients? That's the beauty of homebrewing, we get to decide.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I went past a nice Indy store on my way back home. GP was $100 a sack. Weyermann floor malted was $105. Rahr was $72 and local craft pils was $83. I bought a sack of Montana Pils for $55 at my local. It was actually really good IMO. $100 a sack of anything is hard for me to justify when domestic is darn good. Best had always been my favorite pils. A sack of Best was $88. My local carries Avangard and I really don’t like that malt, especially with its ties to the dark side. My problem is my local doesn’t carry domestic pils all the time. Guess I should have bought multiple sacks of the Montana, hasn’t been in stock since. When I can get some Sugar Creek reg 2row I’ll try that. I guess this time of year local maltsters run out of stock.

 

[Bassman2003]

Mostly agree. Though the biggest of the big maltsters in Germany don't have a huge step up in quality over some domestic malts. Best Malz is way better than Weyermann in my opinion. Barke pils is bland. Best Malz pils is grand. But I don't really know how much more can be discussed on this. It's a matter a preference really at this point. The reason I started this thread was to have these types of discussions. I like the idea of using stuff grown and malted near me, not necessarily "craft" malt. As mentioned already, they're charging astronomical prices for questionable quality. I've used some and it's definitely right to question the quality.
But having said that, is it really about quality or is it about the principle and ethics of using more local ingredients? That's the beauty of homebrewing, we get to decide.

I agree, this is a great topic. I have to say, I am kind of hard lined about any product. Quality first, geography 2nd. The local folks need to have a good/great product or they will have a tough time staying in business. Or compete on price if they do not have the quality.

It is very interesting to hear how varied everybody's opinions are about malt. Weyermann malt performs well in the brewhouse and is well documented. I thought Barke was considered to be full flavored malt compared to the normal offering. Some say Best pils is not great and others' love it. To me, Briess is not my favorite compared to Rahr which I like better. Great Western performs really well in the brewhouse but I think there are other choices with better end flavor.

Domestic vs Overseas? Well, I do believe there is a method to the maltsters production. One could argue that Euro maltsters malt towards Euro brewers and domestic maltsters towards domestic brewers. When I think of pilsner, weiss & helles, I do not think of domestic. When I think of IPA I am kind domestic etc... So that is where I am coming from. We all have different expectations for our own beer.

 

[MaxStout]

There's a lot of good back-and-forth discussion in this thread.

I'm of a similar mind to @Bassman2003, in that quality comes first, then location. I only have one LHBS "near" me, and that's across town and not convenient. So it's online ordering. From those online vendors I try to get the best ingredients within my price point, and shipping plays a big part in the decision. I have brewed many beers with Briess, and never had a bad one. Their prices are VERY reasonable from the online retailers. Ditto for BestMalz. I have ~80lbs. of Weyermann in my inventory right now, but only because it was given to me by a local craft brewer. Otherwise, I'd probably stick with Briess or Best, as Weyermann can be a bit expensive. Then there's the freshness issue. Luckily, I live fairly close to 2 big ones: Rahr and Briess.

When it's a close call, I lean toward the local/regional producer. Barring that, I can't always do the domestic-import dichotomy. At the end of the day I choose what works best within my budget.

Some of those high prices I see from a few vendors may be due in part to supply chain issues, overhead, etc. But I'm not buying that story as a whole. Like with many other products, I think there's some post-pandemic cash grabs going on.

 

[beersk]

Excellent points. I'd really like to think quality is more important than budget, but the reality of it is as you say, @MaxStout I haven't made a bad beer with Briess, but the jury's still out on whether I can brew most German styles and still feel as happy with the beer as the ones I make with Best or Weyermann. I'm kind of experimenting with it now. I just know that spending $90+ on a sack of grain just isn't feasible or realistic for me.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I’m part of a malt cooperative here in Cheshire UK. We buy all our malt from Crisp. A 25kg bag of Maris Otter costs the equivalent of $39 and Europils made in their German maltings costs $43 for 25kg.

 

[user 246304]

I’m part of a malt cooperative here in Cheshire UK. We buy all our malt from Crisp. A 25kg bag of Maris Otter costs the equivalent of $39 and Europils made in their German maltings costs $43 for 25kg.

Because of a work discount, and I thought it's a good deal, I picked up a bag of Fawcett's MO for $65 (we also get Fawcett's or Simpson's Golden Promise - not usually my preference over MO, which I feel is more in the biscuit/nut tones than GP, generally straightforward sweetness in my experience). Man, I'd kill for those prices!

 

[beersk]

I’m part of a malt cooperative here in Cheshire UK. We buy all our malt from Crisp. A 25kg bag of Maris Otter costs the equivalent of $39 and Europils made in their German maltings costs $43 for 25kg.

Yeah, those prices can't be beat. That's pretty great. I wish there was an easier way to hook that up around here. I thought I had a hookup for a while with a local brewery, being friends with the brewer, then he started getting all paranoid the owner was going to find out and freak out, so he stopped letting me get in on their grain orders. Seems like it shouldn't be a big deal...but business is business I guess.

 

[day_trippr]

Find out what BSG requires to get set up as a buyer with them. I've been getting full bags of Weyermann (pilsner) and Simpsons (Golden Promise) and Breiss (Brewer's Malt) for a buck a pound from a fellow HBTer in town who makes periodic runs down to the West Warwick, RI BSG...

Cheers!

 

[beersk]

Find out what BSG requires to get set up as a buyer with them. I've been getting full bags of Weyermann (pilsner) and Simpsons (Golden Promise) and Breiss (Brewer's Malt) for a buck a pound from a fellow HBTer in town who makes periodic runs down to the West Warwick, RI BSG...

Cheers!

I had looked into that. You need to have/be some kind of business. They explicitly say on their site that they don't offer membership to clubs or individuals. Sucks because getting some kind of group setup for regular orders would be badass.

 

[Crafty_Brewer]

Hey @beersk , how’s the domestic/Briess experiment with German lagers going?

 

[day_trippr]

I had looked into that. You need to have/be some kind of business.

I believe that is as simple as obtaining a wholesaler's license...

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

Or an LLC. Most states have an easy system of registration. Fill out a downloaded or online form, pay a modest fee. Call it Beersk Brewing or something. Then get a tax ID number and you're in business.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Or an LLC. Most states have an easy system of registration. Fill out a downloaded or online form, pay a modest fee. Call it Beersk Brewing or something. Then get a tax ID number and you're in business.

So your 30 minutes ago post grabbed my attention, and as I was re-reading the thread from the beginning, I saw your comment from a year ago:

I bought a pound of Special Roast, out of curiosity, though I haven't used it yet. I have a ton of Pilsner malt I got free, wondering if 4 or 5% Special Roast added to that might be a good "faux Maris" base for a British brew.

And wanted to ask: did you ever try that?

I remember thinking that might be good until I saw the "Toasty, Biscuit, and bold, sourdough flavors", when I decided against trying it.

 

[Bassman2003]

Or an LLC. Most states have an easy system of registration. Fill out a downloaded or online form, pay a modest fee. Call it Beersk Brewing or something. Then get a tax ID number and you're in business.

Do they check to see if you are in the beer business or not? One could have an LLC and pay sales tax but not sell or make beer. Would they still be able to buy from BSG etc...?

 

[MaxStout]

So your 30 minutes ago post grabbed my attention, and as I was re-reading the thread from the beginning, I saw your comment from a year ago:

And wanted to ask: did you ever try that?

I remember thinking that might be good until I saw the "Toasty, Biscuit, and bold, sourdough flavors", when I decided against trying it.

Never did the faux Maris thing. I used that Special Roast in a porter and a pale ale a while back. I think it comprised 3-4% in each of those. I don't recall it adding much to either beer.

 

[MaxStout]

Do they check to see if you are in the beer business or not? One could have an LLC and pay sales tax but not sell or make beer. Would they still be able to buy from BSG etc...?

Yeah, that could be an issue. BSG might require proof of licensure for production/distribution. Probably wise to contact BSG, say "I'm thinking of starting a brewing-related business...what documentation will you need from me?"

 

[Tony B]

I haven’t yet seen a change in prices at my LHBS, but it seems like we will see price increases on imported ingredients. A while back I tried some Great Western Pilsner malt from Idaho in a WC pils. It was great. I also use a ton of Briess brewers malt in a majority of my recipes.
I really like Weyerman Pilsner malt, but if the price goes up, I’ll definitely be looking at more domestic options.
I order a lot of my hops from YVH. The have had pretty reasonable prices on imported hops, but if they go way up, I’m definitely looking at domestic substitutes.

 

[day_trippr]

The fellow HBTer that lives in my town and has been supplying me with bags of base malts from BSG over the years may simply be set up as a reseller...akin to a retail shop but sans the bricks and mortar...

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

The fellow HBTer that lives in my town and has been supplying me with bags of base malts from BSG over the years may simply be set up as a reseller...akin to a retail shop but sans the bricks and mortar...

Cheers!

Is your friend required by BSG to order minimum quantities?

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, that is the next round of questions. How small of quantities do places like BSG ship? A home based LLC ordering a sack of grain delivered to a residential address seems like they would not want to bother... Plus shipping would be high priced probably defeating any cost savings.

 

[day_trippr]

Is your friend required by BSG to order minimum quantities?

Don't know - but at least once he picked up three bags for me and I don't think there were any other orders that time.
I'll send him a DM and see if there's a minimum.

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

IIRC, a local craft brewer I know said that BSG requires him to order base malt by the pallet. But they drop-ship to him, so that's likely the reason. Smaller customers might need to go pick up their orders.

 

[day_trippr]

My HBT friend replied to my inquiry.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Things you need to do:

Come up with a entity name

Apply for a federal tax ID - free

Register with your town or city as a home business and get a business certificate. Boston is $60. I registered as a mail order home hobby store so I don’t have to worry about food laws or zoning.

Register on masstaxconnect as a retailer so you can get your retail certificate.

Then you take your retail certificate, business cert, and fed tax ID to bsghandcraft and brewcraftusa (north country malt and tech hops) and register for accounts

I did it as a sole proprietor because starting an llc is $500 in MA.

All in all I remember it being pretty easy. Happy to share!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there ya go! State regs may differ, I suppose, but it's at least a framework to go from.

Cheers!

 

[simbabrew]

I just tried MaltEurop Pilsen malt, and was shocked at how good it was. Grown in the USA too! I brew mostly Belgian Triples, Goldens, etc. and the MaltEurop to me tasted better than Dingemans or Castle.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for sharing.

 

[day_trippr]

Addendum: my HBT friend says he's not aware of any minimums at BSG.

Cheers!

 

[Bassman2003]

I used to order from Texas Brewing which is 20 minutes away until they went pro only. I looked at their "setup an account" page as I have an LLC which pays sales tax. But it just seems like they would be totally aware I am not a brewery operation. Maybe they don't care but it would be uncomfortable if they did.

 

[Franktalk]

I used to order from Texas Brewing which is 20 minutes away until they went pro only. I looked at their "setup an account" page as I have an LLC which pays sales tax. But it just seems like they would be totally aware I am not a brewery operation. Maybe they don't care but it would be uncomfortable if they did.

The money you would save would provide comfort.

 

[MaxStout]

I used to order from Texas Brewing which is 20 minutes away until they went pro only. I looked at their "setup an account" page as I have an LLC which pays sales tax. But it just seems like they would be totally aware I am not a brewery operation. Maybe they don't care but it would be uncomfortable if they did.

Try it anyway. The worst that could happen is they'll say no.

 

[Bassman2003]

I am not sure how much I would save as they do not have their prices listed.

 

[MaxStout]

I am not sure how much I would save as they do not have their prices listed.

Wholesalers sometimes keep prices close to the vest. You'd have to send an RFQ for goods you want.