Odd chewable vitamin C flavor in a MaiBock?

[hiphoppotamuss]

Sampled my Helles Bock last night (post - lagering for 42 days) and it tastes fine except, it’s the oddest thing… there’s this strange aftertaste that I can only describe as “chewable vitamin C”. It’s this sweet orange like puckering sensation which hits 2-3 seconds after swallowing. It’s drinkable but just weird.

I’ve only had this flavor once before with a cream ale fermented warm with 34/70.

Any ideas?

Mash​

Strike Temp — 136.8 °F
Protein — 130 °F — 30 min
Temperature — 145 °F — 30 min
Sacc — 154 °F — 60 min
Mashout — 168 °F — 15 min​

Malts (13 lb 7.9 oz)​

7 lb 1.2 oz (52.5%) — Weyermann Barke Pilsner — Grain — 1.9 °L
2 lb 11.7 oz (20.3%) — Weyermann Barke Vienna Malt — Grain — 3.4 °L
2 lb 7.9 oz (18.5%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 6.2 °L
13.1 oz (6.1%) — Cara-Pils/Dextrine — Grain — 2 °L
6 oz (2.8%) — Weyermann Melanoidin — Grain — 22.7 °L​

Hops (84 g)​

28 g (32 IBU) — Hallertau Magnum 12.4% — Boil — 50 min
28 g (2 IBU) — Hallertauer Hersbrucker 2% — Boil — 10 min
28 g (0 IBU) — Hallertauer Hersbrucker 2% — Aroma — 10 min hopstand

Hopstand at 176 °F​

Miscs​

3.7 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
3.7 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
7.5 ml — Lactic Acid 85% — Mash​

Yeast​

Fermentis S-189 SafLager German Lager ( 500ml slurry from previous fermented Helles) ​

Fermentation​

Primary — 50 °F — 7 days
Primary — 55 °F — 14 days
Conditioning — 32 °F — 55 days
Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol​

 

[Franktalk]

I'm not sure what lactic acid tastes like, but your recipe has a heck of a lot of it. What ph are you mashing at?

 

[lumpher]

I agree with Franktalk on the lactic acid being the likely culprit; it would give that tart twang. Most people can taste 1.5ml per gallon, and some can taste it at even lower concentrations. My advice is to use no more than 1ml per gallon. Unrelated: Why such a busy mash schedule?

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

I'm not sure what lactic acid tastes like, but your recipe has a heck of a lot of it. What ph are you mashing at?

Hmmm interesting. yeah, I'm on well water and its free of minerals but heavy on the bicarb... and my pH is 8.8. That's what it took to get the mash down to 5.35. I bet you anything that's it.

Maybe next time I'll try acidulated malt?

Mash schedule, I was just having fun honestly.. lol I usually do a HochKurz for my lagers, but was playing with a protein rest.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Acidulated malt is just malt with lactic acid either added to it or encouraged to grow on it, so you're still utilizing lactic acid... maybe try supplementing some of your water with distilled or RO to get your starting ph closer to 7 before making adjustments. Another option would be phosphoric acid which is what I use but my starting ph is 7.2 and I use an 85% solution.

Edit, did you measure your mash ph? And if so, with what and what is your process of doing so?

 

[wdavis2003]

I'm not sure what lactic acid tastes like, but your recipe has a heck of a lot of it. What ph are you mashing at?

Lactic acid tastes like the leftover sour stuff from an empty bag of sour patch kids.. Gives you a nice little pucker if you get some on your hand and lick it

 

[hotbeer]

Are you correcting the pH of your water without checking what your wort pH is with that water before correcting?

That seems a mistake to me. But I don't mess with this as much as others.

Not certain that the taste of lactic acid will be like you describe, but perhaps along with other things it gives you that perception.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

I am measuring the pH of the mash with a pH meter once the mash is well
Mixed. I start at around three to four ML of Lactic and add one ML at a time until I get between 5.3 and 5.4

I would say I have about 20 five gallon batches on the system, using well water and only two batches have had the strange taste. And it’s peculiar, it’s not like a sour acid taste, but it’s just like you know those chewable vitamin C.s? Just they have that really odd kind of citrus, sweet taste to them?

I’m still putting my money on the lactic acid, though …I think my next batch I will try phosphoric acid and maybe half dilute using RO water

I doubt it’s the whirlpool because I’ve done several batches with whirlpools and haven’t had the vitamin C taste

One other possibility, which I doubt, but who knows ..I don’t tend to use gelatin often but I use it on both the cream ale the Helles Bock?

 

[day_trippr]

All this is why I've always stuck with Phosphoric Acid. If it works for all of the soda in the universe it'll work for beer.
Picked up a quart of 85% from Dudadiesel a looong time ago and I down-mix it to 25% using my RO for mash additions...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

Picked up a quart of 85% from Dudadiesel a looong time ago and I down-mix it to 25% using my RO

And in a pinch you could make your own starsan!

 

[doug293cz]

Hmmm interesting. yeah, I'm on well water and its free of minerals but heavy on the bicarb... and my pH is 8.8. That's what it took to get the mash down to 5.35. I bet you anything that's it.

Maybe next time I'll try acidulated malt?

Mash schedule, I was just having fun honestly.. lol I usually do a HochKurz for my lagers, but was playing with a protein rest.

If you have high bicarbonate (an anion - negative ion) then you also have to have cations (positive ions) to balance out the electrical charge. The most common cations in water (that are plentiful enough to balance bicarb) are Ca, Mg, and Na. So, you do have minerals in your water.

Acidulated malt is just malt with lactic acid either added to it or encouraged to grow on it, so you're still utilizing lactic acid... maybe try supplementing some of your water with distilled or RO to get your starting ph closer to 7 before making adjustments. Another option would be phosphoric acid which is what I use but my starting ph is 7.2 and I use an 85% solution.

Edit, did you measure your mash ph? And if so, with what and what is your process of doing so?

Starting pH of the water is irrelevant to resulting mash pH. What matters is the alkalinity, which is a measure of how much acid it takes to change (lower) the water's pH to 4.5. Low alkalinity requires less acid to lower the pH, and high alkalinity requires more acid. High levels of bicarb equate to high levels of alkalinity.

Brew on

 

[dmtaylor]

Too much lactic acid, of course.

You should be aiming for a mash pH of around 5.6, not 5.35.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/will-it-mash-at-ph-5-00.667992/page-2#post-8653242

 

[hottpeper13]

If your pH is 5.6 at 10-15 min into the mash, it will likely be lower at the 45 min mark. In my experience the high alkalinity in most water is from Cal/Mag and you are also adding more with your salt addition. Above 150 ppm of calcium can leave a metallic taste behind. I think it's a bad idea to treat water you don't know, so First off get a water report and maybe we can nail this ghost down.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Too much lactic acid, of course.

You should be aiming for a mash pH of around 5.6, not 5.35.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/will-it-mash-at-ph-5-00.667992/page-2#post-8653242

Yeah the more I read, the less I need to worry about mash pH. This link is a good thread

If your pH is 5.6 at 10-15 min into the mash, it will likely be lower at the 45 min mark. In my experience the high alkalinity in most water is from Cal/Mag and you are also adding more with your salt addition. Above 150 ppm of calcium can leave a metallic taste behind. I think it's a bad idea to treat water you don't know, so First off get a water report and maybe we can nail this ghost down.

My water report looks like this :
pH 8.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) 151
Sodium, Na 61
Potassium, K 0
Calcium, Ca 2
Magnesium, Mg 0
Total Hardness, CaCO3 5
Sulfate, SO4-S 0
Chloride, Cl 2
Carbonate, CO3 5
Bicarbonate, HCO3 145
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 127

 

[doug293cz]

Yeah the more I read, the less I need to worry about mash pH. This link is a good thread



My water report looks like this :
pH 8.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) 151
Sodium, Na 61
Potassium, K 0
Calcium, Ca 2
Magnesium, Mg 0
Total Hardness, CaCO3 5
Sulfate, SO4-S 0
Chloride, Cl 2
Carbonate, CO3 5
Bicarbonate, HCO3 145
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 127

Is that water coming out of a water softener? High Na, 0 Mg and 2 Ca points to this being the case.

Brew on

 

[hottpeper13]

When I looked at that water report I thought that's impossible, then Doug came in and I'm like totally!

 

[G_robertus]

I am measuring the pH of the mash with a pH meter once the mash is well
Mixed. I start at around three to four ML of Lactic and add one ML at a time until I get between 5.3 and 5.4

I would say I have about 20 five gallon batches on the system, using well water and only two batches have had the strange taste. And it’s peculiar, it’s not like a sour acid taste, but it’s just like you know those chewable vitamin C.s? Just they have that really odd kind of citrus, sweet taste to them?

I’m still putting my money on the lactic acid, though …I think my next batch I will try phosphoric acid and maybe half dilute using RO water

I doubt it’s the whirlpool because I’ve done several batches with whirlpools and haven’t had the vitamin C taste

One other possibility, which I doubt, but who knows ..I don’t tend to use gelatin often but I use it on both the cream ale the Helles Bock?

Long shot, but are you sure your gelatin is unflavoured? If that's the odd factor between all of your brews maybe look into that as well.

Though I agree that 5.6 will still give you beer. Heck I even had higher mash pH when starting and it still beered.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Is that water coming out of a water softener? High Na, 0 Mg and 2 Ca points to this being the case.

Brew on

Unfortunately no water softener. Came out of the garden hose actually. lol

Definitely unflavored gelatin!

 

[doug293cz]

Unfortunately no water softener. Came out of the garden hose actually. lol

Definitely unflavored gelatin!

I think I would get your water tested again. I'm not a water expert, but I've never seen a cation distribution like that for any ground water. There's a small chance that Wards mixed up your sample with another one (that did come from a water softener.)

Brew on

 

[Bramling Cross]

Unfortunately no water softener. Came out of the garden hose actually. lol

Definitely unflavored gelatin!

Where are you in Oregon? If you're in the Portland area your water is likely coming out of Bull Run and that's some of the softest water this side of Pilsen--although it does have a lot of vegetable matter in it.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Where are you in Oregon? If you're in the Portland area your water is likely coming out of Bull Run and that's some of the softest water this side of Pilsen--although it does have a lot of vegetable matter in it.

We’re about 10 miles south of Eugene/southern Willamette valley. I will say our spring is the cleanest water I’ve ever tasted!

I think I would get your water tested again. I'm not a water expert, but I've never seen a cation distribution like that for any ground water. There's a small chance that Wards mixed up your sample with another one (that did come from a water softener.)

Brew on

Makes sense. I think it was only about 40 bucks for the test so I’ll reconfirm it.

 

[Pehlman17]

Sampled my Helles Bock last night (post - lagering for 42 days) and it tastes fine except, it’s the oddest thing… there’s this strange aftertaste that I can only describe as “chewable vitamin C”. It’s this sweet orange like puckering sensation which hits 2-3 seconds after swallowing. It’s drinkable but just weird.

I know I'm a little late to the party but your post piqued my interest. I've been complaining a lot about what I've been calling a Flintstones Vitamin flavor I find in a lot of newer IPAs these days. I find it super interesting though that you're getting something similar in a Helles. Most of the comments above seem to point to the acid as the culprit. That sort of matches my hypothesis around the same quality I'm tasting in some IPAs, that in order to push the juicy flavors brewers are driving the pH down to make the fruitiness really pop. Anyway, hope you were able to get it figured out! Vitamin Beer is a style I certainly hope never catches on.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

I know I'm a little late to the party but your post piqued my interest. I've been complaining a lot about what I've been calling a Flintstones Vitamin flavor I find in a lot of newer IPAs these days. I find it super interesting though that you're getting something similar in a Helles. Most of the comments above seem to point to the acid as the culprit. That sort of matches my hypothesis around the same quality I'm tasting in some IPAs, that in order to push the juicy flavors brewers are driving the pH down to make the fruitiness really pop. Anyway, hope you were able to get it figured out! Vitamin Beer is a style I certainly hope never catches on.

Two more lagers brewed post Flintstones Helles with RO water and limited acid addition and no vitamin C flavor
I’m with you. Let’s hope vitamin C beer never takes off. … but if it does I have the formula!!!

 

[dmtaylor]

I know I'm a little late to the party but your post piqued my interest. I've been complaining a lot about what I've been calling a Flintstones Vitamin flavor I find in a lot of newer IPAs these days. I find it super interesting though that you're getting something similar in a Helles. Most of the comments above seem to point to the acid as the culprit. That sort of matches my hypothesis around the same quality I'm tasting in some IPAs, that in order to push the juicy flavors brewers are driving the pH down to make the fruitiness really pop. Anyway, hope you were able to get it figured out! Vitamin Beer is a style I certainly hope never catches on.

Interesting you bring up Flintstones vitamins. I detect something I refer to as "Flintstoniness" in MANY imported German lagers of all styles. I've also picked it up in a few of my own lagers and some ales. I have always figured it was a mineral flavor from something in the water and/or the malt (keep in mind, malt has a ton of minerals too). Whatever it is, I find that it is VERY common in traditional lagers. Some more than others, but never unexpected when I detect it. It's not tangy, not like Vitamin C. It's just mineral flavor.

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting you bring up Flintstones vitamins. I detect something I refer to as "Flintstoniness" in MANY imported German lagers of all styles. I've also picked it up in a few of my own lagers and some ales. I have always figured it was a mineral flavor from something in the water and/or the malt (keep in mind, malt has a ton of minerals too). Whatever it is, I find that it is VERY common in traditional lagers. Some more than others, but never unexpected when I detect it. It's not tangy, not like Vitamin C. It's just mineral flavor.

I suspect the Sauergut?

It's high in lactic acid, so that would make sense even within the IPA context above.

 

[Pehlman17]

Interesting you bring up Flintstones vitamins. I detect something I refer to as "Flintstoniness" in MANY imported German lagers of all styles. I've also picked it up in a few of my own lagers and some ales. I have always figured it was a mineral flavor from something in the water and/or the malt (keep in mind, malt has a ton of minerals too). Whatever it is, I find that it is VERY common in traditional lagers. Some more than others, but never unexpected when I detect it. It's not tangy, not like Vitamin C. It's just mineral flavor.

Right, there is a definitely minerality to it as well, it’s not just acidity. It’s both. Which is even more intriguing because I feel like the trend lately has been moving away from mineral-heavy water profiles.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Minerality is an interesting thought. I definitely need to go back and resample the HellesBock when I get home tonight. It might just be that. The aftertaste is definitely not a sour, mouthpuckering flavor. It’s a chewable vitamin kinda thing.

 

[Miraculix]

Minerality is an interesting thought. I definitely need to go back and resample the HellesBock when I get home tonight. It might just be that. The aftertaste is definitely not a sour, mouthpuckering flavor. It’s a chewable vitamin kinda thing.

Doc said take your vitamins. Have a beer.