Westvleteren

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Arbe0

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Vale71

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Personally I'd recommend adding it in the fermenter to the cooled wort. That way you won't loose a single ounce of the precious (and rather expensive!) liquid to trub. As for the volume you should include it in the water calculations otherwise you'll have some dilution, although the amount is minimal compared to the batch size.
 

MikeCo

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If you’re trying to calculate water additions for the mash, just use the malt in the calculation; not the syrup. I have added syrup at flameout and it works well.
 

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Personally I'd recommend adding it in the fermenter to the cooled wort. That way you won't loose a single ounce of the precious (and rather expensive!) liquid to trub. As for the volume you should include it in the water calculations otherwise you'll have some dilution, although the amount is minimal compared to the batch size.
That! ^

I've been adding (homemade) syrups toward the end of fermentation. That way the yeast won't binge early on the simpler sugars.

I use a funnel with a piece of vinyl tubing attached to the spout so it reaches below the beer surface, preventing splashing and turbulence. I use either the airlock hole or one of the 1" access holes I drilled in the bucket lid. The syrup is thinned down with some saved out wort (or boiled and cooled water) for easier pouring. While pouring, keep the funnel at least half full, to prevent gurgling and air being sucked in. Rinse with some boiled and cooled water.

On a side note, from what I've read, in the monastery Westies are not made with any syrup or Special B. It's all from regular base malt and process. Go figure how they do that...
 

Vale71

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That! ^

I've been adding (homemade) syrups toward the end of fermentation. That way the yeast won't binge early on the simpler sugars.

I use a funnel with a piece of vinyl tubing attached to the spout so it reaches below the beer surface, preventing splashing and turbulence. I use either the airlock hole or one of the 1" access holes I drilled in the bucket lid. The syrup is thinned down with some saved out wort (or boiled and cooled water) for easier pouring. While pouring, keep the funnel at least half full, to prevent gurgling and air being sucked in. Rinse with some boiled and cooled water.

On a side note, from what I've read, in the monastery Westies are not made with any syrup or Special B. It's all from regular base malt and process. Go figure how they do that...
I actually add the candi before pitching yeast as this is how the monasteries do it. I have a conical that gets filled from the dump port which provided all the turbulence one could wish for to achieve thorough mixing (but I do warm up the syrup by dipping the bag in warm water beforehand). I really doubt that Westvleteren could be made without the ubiquitous candi syrup. Where exactly did you read that?
 

Big Monk

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I actually add the candi before pitching yeast as this is how the monasteries do it. I have a conical that gets filled from the dump port which provided all the turbulence one could wish for to achieve thorough mixing (but I do warm up the syrup by dipping the bag in warm water beforehand). I really doubt that Westvleteren could be made without the ubiquitous candi syrup. Where exactly did you read that?
I have to agree here. Westvleteren is likely the ONLY Trappist brewery using dark syrups as sugar adjuncts.
 

VikeMan

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On a side note, from what I've read, in the monastery Westies are not made with any syrup or Special B. It's all from regular base malt and process. Go figure how they do that...
Yeah, according to "Brew Like a Monk," the don't use any non-base malts at all. And they do use "plain sugar," and reportedly (per Jackson and others) use "caramelized sugar" for color.
 

Big Monk

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Yeah, according to "Brew Like a Monk," the don't use any non-base malts at all. And they do use "plain sugar," and reportedly (per Jackson and others) use "caramelized sugar" for color.
One thing to keep in mind: Candi Syrups as we know them are a very hyped up thing. Belgium has a huge candy industry and breweries use the liquid sugars available in large amounts from these distributors. They also use solid soft and hard sugars much more regularly than syrups. They also, in the case of probably Chimay, Westmalle, and definitely Rochefort, use a Sinamar type product.

Many options, with most not being dark syrups!
 
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Arbe0

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thanks Vale, so if I figure my water profile with beer smith or brewersfriend for the mash I should include the D-180 even though I am not using it in the mash?
If you’re trying to calculate water additions for the mash, just use the malt in the calculation; not the syrup. I have added syrup at flameout and it works well.
 
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Thank you Mike this is what I was after. So I would guess I would just use the water profile for the gravity of the grains then excluding the candi syrup gravity?
 

Vale71

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Yep, as it does contribute to the final volume. Even more so without any trub losses.
 

Big Monk

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Make sure you take this into account


(Shout Out to @VikeMan)
 
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Arbe0,

I recently brewed a Rocherfort 8 clone and while building my recipe I ran into a bunch of similar questions including...
  1. Ratio of grain to sugars - do you use lbs or points?
  2. What happens to target OG if you add candi syrups to primary rather than kettle, especially since Candi-syrup recommends dilution prior to adding, and how do you adjust grains and sugars to maintain target OG and grain to sugar ratios in final product.
That being said, my homegrown program written in excel is updated to be able to maintain a target OG and lbs percentages while toggling between adding sugars to kettle or primary. It will also tell you how many points make it into the primary from grains and sugars if you want to target points ratio. I wrote it from the perspective of a homebrewer and how we think about recipes - target OGs, % lbs, batch size.

Let me know if you are interested in the program and I can email it to you as well as answer any questions. Would appreciate feedback, especially for this kind of brew. The program has become a labor of love.

Regards,

KB
 

Big Monk

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I recently brewed a Rocherfort 8 clone and while building my recipe I ran into a bunch of similar questions including...
  1. Ratio of grain to sugars - do you use lbs or points?
  2. What happens to target OG if you add candi syrups to primary rather than kettle, especially since Candi-syrup recommends dilution prior to adding, and how do you adjust grains and sugars to maintain target OG and grain to sugar ratios in final products
1. In researching the real Rochefort recipe, I ran into a similar line of thinking. It can be difficult to translate a known recipe into a ratio of extract potential for grains and sugars, especially if you don’t know the efficiency of the system it was brewed on, extract potential of the grain, etc. but I think looking st the ratio of extract potential is the way to go.

2. This is a more complex set of calcs, which isn’t all that difficult to execute, as you have clearly shown. Frankly, I’ve never had reason to add sugars of any variety post boil, with flameout being the latest I add them. Frankly, I mostly prefer to not use Candi syrups. I prefer to use a colorant like Sinamar and my trusted Florida Crystals sugars. I’d be interested to see your program if you are willing to show me.
 
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Arbe0

Arbe0

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I would love to see your program I may answer a lot of questions.
I have used the OG for the grains that didn't include the D-180 for my water and mash profiles. with 10 lb of Belgian Pilsner and 5.5 lb of Belgian pale malt it looks like the total OG of those malts is 1.077 and the pre-boil gravity would be 1.066 from brewfather app. This is kind of what I am using.
Although I tried it on Beer smith with putting the D-180 into the primary and it showed a OG of 1.044. I am thinking it isn't counting the D-180 in the OG for some reason which should be more like 1.091.
 
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Arbe0

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Water profiles kind of get me all confused, not very smart with this. I do have the Water book but most of that goes over my head.
 
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Big Monk:

Happy to share - would appreciate feedback on how to improve. Is there a way to send it to you in an email? HBT doesn't allow me to attach the excel file.

KB
 
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Arbe0

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Arbe0,

I recently brewed a Rocherfort 8 clone and while building my recipe I ran into a bunch of similar questions including...
  1. Ratio of grain to sugars - do you use lbs or points?
  2. What happens to target OG if you add candi syrups to primary rather than kettle, especially since Candi-syrup recommends dilution prior to adding, and how do you adjust grains and sugars to maintain target OG and grain to sugar ratios in final product.
That being said, my homegrown program written in excel is updated to be able to maintain a target OG and lbs percentages while toggling between adding sugars to kettle or primary. It will also tell you how many points make it into the primary from grains and sugars if you want to target points ratio. I wrote it from the perspective of a homebrewer and how we think about recipes - target OGs, % lbs, batch size.

Let me know if you are interested in the program and I can email it to you as well as answer any questions. Would appreciate feedback, especially for this kind of brew. The program has become a labor of love.

Regards,

KB
AOL.com man that's an old one. LOL :bigmug:
Big Monk:

Happy to share - would appreciate feedback on how to improve. Is there a way to send it to you in an email? HBT doesn't allow me to attach the excel file.

KB
Arbe0,

I recently brewed a Rocherfort 8 clone and while building my recipe I ran into a bunch of similar questions including...
  1. Ratio of grain to sugars - do you use lbs or points?
  2. What happens to target OG if you add candi syrups to primary rather than kettle, especially since Candi-syrup recommends dilution prior to adding, and how do you adjust grains and sugars to maintain target OG and grain to sugar ratios in final product.
That being said, my homegrown program written in excel is updated to be able to maintain a target OG and lbs percentages while toggling between adding sugars to kettle or primary. It will also tell you how many points make it into the primary from grains and sugars if you want to target points ratio. I wrote it from the perspective of a homebrewer and how we think about recipes - target OGs, % lbs, batch size.

Let me know if you are interested in the program and I can email it to you as well as answer any questions. Would appreciate feedback, especially for this kind of brew. The program has become a labor of love.

Regards,

KB

Got your attachment, jez looks like you have done a lot of work on this... thank you for sending it to me. I will play with it later.
 
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Got your attachment, jez looks like you have done a lot of work on this... thank you for sending it to me. I will play with it later.
Yeah, kind of kept adding new functionality and refinement after each brew session. Been a labor of love. Helped me learn the science as well as enjoy the hobby while not brewing. Only thing it really doesn't do is PH, which is a complex chemistry subject. I rely on Bru'n Water and MashMadeEasy, who have been very generous sharing their knowledge. Maybe someday I'll dig into that subject.

Let me know if you have any questions on formulas, approaches, etc. Once you have your brew system factors set up, building recipes only take 10 minutes and if you want to refine them, all the calcs (lbs, water volumes, points, pre-boil kettle gravity, temps, etc) are automatic.

Regards,

KB
.
 

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I remember hearing the phone dial and then the weird peeps and chirps. I thought it was amazing. To think that almost everything is now done online. go figure. :mug:
 
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Arbe0

Arbe0

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just brewed the 3 gallon Westvleteren, out of the primary fermenter lots of plum, raisin and dark fruits. Looks like it is going to be close to the 10% ABV. Going into a secondary today, It will be hard to be patient for this one, instructions say I need to wait a year for it to get right. My plan is to keep as many bottles as I can until it is at least 5 years old. ….Wish me luck on that.
 
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