Awesome, thanks for sharing your data point. Its important. Having drank over 75 gallons of warm fermented lager by now I cant say I have ever tasted banana or clove esters. I have tasted sulphur and perhaps acetaldehyde. Have you blind triangled with the other. Perception bias is real and strong. I thought my last batch sucked and yet picked it thinking it was the bud light!1 more data point.
I brewed my first pilsner 2 months ago and it was great. Fermented 34/70 @ 55 for 2 weeks, 65 for 1 week, then lagered around 40 for 2-3 weeks.
I warm fermented the same recipe recently, again using 34/70. 3 weeks @ 67, and had a taste last night after lagering it at 40 for 10 days. It did not taste good. Couldn't describe the off-flavor exactly but defnitely yeasty - would guess banana/clove esters, maybe fusel alcohol? Not sure about descriptors other than not tasty.
Am going to let it lager another 2-3 weeks and try again.
Banana is an ester and clove is a phenolic off flavor(POF). Lagers yeasts can make esters but I believe they do not create POF. Most wild yeasts are POF positive (POS+).1 more data point.
I brewed my first pilsner 2 months ago and it was great. Fermented 34/70 @ 55 for 2 weeks, 65 for 1 week, then lagered around 40 for 2-3 weeks.
I warm fermented the same recipe recently, again using 34/70. 3 weeks @ 67, and had a taste last night after lagering it at 40 for 10 days. It did not taste good. Couldn't describe the off-flavor exactly but defnitely yeasty - would guess banana/clove esters, maybe fusel alcohol? Not sure about descriptors other than not tasty.
Am going to let it lager another 2-3 weeks and try again.
1 more data point.
I brewed my first pilsner 2 months ago and it was great. Fermented 34/70 @ 55 for 2 weeks, 65 for 1 week, then lagered around 40 for 2-3 weeks.
I warm fermented the same recipe recently, again using 34/70. 3 weeks @ 67, and had a taste last night after lagering it at 40 for 10 days. It did not taste good. Couldn't describe the off-flavor exactly but defnitely yeasty - would guess banana/clove esters, maybe fusel alcohol? Not sure about descriptors other than not tasty.
Am going to let it lager another 2-3 weeks and try again.
1 more data point.
I brewed my first pilsner 2 months ago and it was great. Fermented 34/70 @ 55 for 2 weeks, 65 for 1 week, then lagered around 40 for 2-3 weeks.
I warm fermented the same recipe recently, again using 34/70. 3 weeks @ 67, and had a taste last night after lagering it at 40 for 10 days. It did not taste good. Couldn't describe the off-flavor exactly but defnitely yeasty - would guess banana/clove esters, maybe fusel alcohol? Not sure about descriptors other than not tasty.
Am going to let it lager another 2-3 weeks and try again.
What's your gravity look like now and how far do you have left to go?Drinking this again now. It's not a dumper but not as good as the cold fermented lager I've made. of course, could be another variable other than temp who knows. Still drinkable - going to chill it really cold and put 'er down.
Don't know how to describe the flavor. Seems yeast related.
Ok, two packs it is then.I'll pass along some email info from Mangrove Jack's:
ME: I tried M54 for the first time a few months ago. Fermentation was very slow. It was an extract batch with 50/50 Pilsner and Munich malt. I typically take a gravity reading after 15 to 20 days, and again two days later. It's always stable, and I bottle. On the M54 batch I took the following gravity samples:
18 days - 1.0148 and hazy.
20 days - 1.0139 (down 0.0009) and still hazy.
26 days - 1.0132 (down by another 0.0007), but clear
29 days - 1.0129 and clear. Bottled.
Process description:
Yeast: Mangrove Jack's M54. One pouch, used 21 months before expiration date.
Yeast was rehydrated at 81F in boiled and cooled tap water
Used bottling hydrometer with 0.0005 graduations - can easily read to nearest 0.00025
Pitching temp 65F
Lag time was normal (bubbling the next morning)
Active fermentation temp - 67F (four days)
Fermentation temp after active - 70F
Checked hydrometer calibration - good
Gravity numbers are corrected for temperature, but there was very little difference in temperatures of the various samples
4.9 gallons to fermenter
OG 1.055
Samples were decarbonated before reading the gravity
The only thing different than my normal process is the M54 yeast.
I thought what I experienced was a fluke and tried it again in my latest batch. Fermentation was very slow again - 40 days total, with five gravity samples.
Are there any known issues that would explain the slow fermentation with this yeast? Maybe something inherent in the strain, or exposure to heat at some point? I wondered about rehydration temperature since the instructions don't discuss the California Lager Yeast fermented at ale temperatures. But I expect that rehydrating at 81F should be fine - ?
Any help would be appreciated.
MJ: No known issue with M54, confirming he used 1 re hydrated pack for the the 4.9 gal.
Assuming this was a fresh pack and not had poor transport between us and the customer. Our yeast contain at least 5x10^9 viable cells per gram, this means there are at least 5x10^10 viable cells per pack, but normally you are looking at 200 billion cells per pack.
For a ‘lager’ you should be using 1.5 million cells per ml per degress plato
For 18548ml (4.9 gals) of lager at 13.5 plato (1.055 SG) = 3.76x10^11 cells of yeast for this beer
3.76x10^11 cells / 200 billion cells per pack = 1.88 packs of yeast for this brew
Therefore I would expect that the ferment was a bit sluggish based on one pack
ME: Thanks very much for the considered response - impressive considering the number of users of Mangrove Jack's yeast. You discussed pitch rate for lagers, but I was under the impression that a lager yeast pitched and fermented at ale temperatures would normally be pitched at the ale yeast rate - lots of brewers do this. I couldn't find any instructions on the website concerning rehydration temperature or pitching rate for this yeast/temperature combination. Do you know if this has been tested or just an assumption?
MJ: Here is a link to rehydration information you are after
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...68-8d16-673b5fb84f75.pdf?16489226078703376035
ME: Thanks for that. But the pitching rate information covers two alternatives: 1) Ales and 2) “Lagers to be fermented at 14°C (57°F) or lower”. There is no mention of lager yeast pitched and fermented at ale temperatures. Based on what I've read and what the tech data seems to imply, it seems that the ale pitching rate would apply when lager yeast is used at ale temperatures. Is it possible this has never been tested?
MJ: Our tech team have advised that this is a hybrid strain that is classed as a lager strain regardless of temperature, and the aim is a clean fermentation profile. Therefore, the pitching rate also needs to ensure that the yeast are under the least amount of stress possible. As a result, the lager pitching rate is applied rather than the ale.
As far as I understood it, it is quite a normal practice when brewing a traditional lager to start at a higher temperature to get the yeast going quicker. Ideally the cooling is started before the yeast really wakes up so that the desired temperature is reached at the point when the yeast starts to do it's yeasty thing.Although this wouldn't qualify as a "warm fermented lager", I have recently relaxed a few things to try them out. My tap water for my chiller runs about 80 degrees this time of year, so I can't chill to pitching temps without ice water. So instead I've been doing a half-chill (using the CFC to get down to ~100, then in the fermentation fridge). I normally like to wait until the temperature of the wort is 3-5 degrees below my target fermentation temp to pitch. But that's hard to do with a half-chill because the time between brewing and pitching is extended, and I don't want to let it sit any longer before pitching than I have to.
So I brewed a pilsner yesterday. Got it down to about 96 degrees with the chiller, and it went into the fridge. This morning I wanted to pitch before going to work, and it was only down to 63. Either way, I pitched 4 packs of W-34/70 into 11 gallons of wort, and it'll continue chilling during the course of the day.
It's not "warm fermented", so to speak, but I'm testing to see if I can relax process a little without harming the final product.
What's your gravity look like now and how far do you have left to go?
This one turned out pretty great. Shiner Bock, in my book, is one of those beers that I can drink anytime and works for most people who visit my house. With MJ54 I can make this all year with very little effort, warm ferm, and as you can see from the SG curve, a quick turnaround.
If you're doing extract then the Texas bock by AHS is great. That's where I started. Check their all-grain version recipe. That is what I started with and have only done a few tweaks to that one. Nothing super secret about the changes to AHS recipe but I don't have them with me at work.If you don’t mind me asking, did you buy a kit or did you make your own recipe to clone shiner bock? Shiner is my favorite beer but unfortunately I can’t purchase it where I live so I recently brewed the AHS extract kit with S23. I’m excited to see how it turns out, should be ready for drinking on the 13th!
In a warm fermented lager the d rest isnt a factor. At happy yeast temps they saw right through and ferment rapidly. That said they need wait time imo to really shine. That said I start drinking them right away.Been fermenting at 53 for 10 days. How long should I bring it up to 65 for the d rest before lagering?
... Brewed a traditional Bavarian Pils using fermentis W34/70 warm. Read the feedback suggesting MJ as superior but really liked the idea of a traditional yeast even if it requires a little more consideration.
Another yeast for people to try - White Labs WLP838 Southern German Lager Yeast which the latest sequencing shows to be an ale yeast.
The hard truth is, honey is beesh*t.Stuff happens. There was a case in the 1002 genome project from Strasbourg where it was obvious they'd mixed up yeast from Orval and Artois.
But that's how science proceeds - people publish, the work gets scrutinised and that way we take one more step to the "truth" whatever that may be.
Bee-vomit, actually. Honey is bee-vomit. And often not vomit from just one bee. All the bees pitch in and the nectar is vomited from one bee to the next until it dries out enough to become honey. It's unbeelievable.The hard truth is, honey is beesh*t.
Happy Birthday.
I just heard a presentation given at AHA NHC from Fermentis. Basically, they confirmed thru lab and sensory panel analysis everything that has been said in this thread in regards to W34/70: fermenting a 1.048 wort at 20*C presents no off flavors or noticeable ester increase with no rehydration or oxygen required (for 1st gen). However, they do recommend two packs for each 5 gal batch (100g per HL = 1 g per L = 20g per 20 L).
They committed to performing this analysis for each of their yeast strains.
That's the spirit! Marzen was one of my first warm fermented joys. Haha, then after 15, 20g whatever it was I realized I like bitter lagers better. Haha, why the heck do I keep making malty ones. Lol thanks, now I am thinking about making an Oktoberfest too. I love the season of it all. Just feels right, prost.Well all this warm lager talk and October being right around the corner has me trying a Marzen.
I tweaked LostTexan (lsteowge) recipe here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/oktoberfest-1st-place-scored-42.390640/
With the S37/40 and using a variation of brulosophy’s method http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/ to make an OctoberFest in time for October.
Sunday I mashed in a 5 gal batch with 2 pack of rehydrated yeast and it’s sitting in a swamp cooler @62 in my Anvil SS fermenter. Once I’m closing in on 80-90% attenuation (likely next weekend) I’ll ramp up to a d rest @68 or so for 3-5 days and keg with gelatin.
Should give me a nice tasty ~5% October lager by the first weekend of the month.
That's the spirit! Marzen was one of my first warm fermented joys. Haha, then after 15, 20g whatever it was I realized I like bitter lagers better. Haha, why the heck do I keep making malty ones. Lol thanks, now I am thinking about making an Oktoberfest too. I love the season of it all. Just feels right, prost.
Triangle test or perception? Its amazing the subtleties that we detect perceptively, and i don't want to discredit that because they matter, but served blind triangled to you would you be right 7 out of 10 times. Let alone 10 out of 10. If so good data point.I dunno guys, I've made 4 pilsners recently, all basically the same recipe, all the same yeast. 3 were outstanding, and all three fermented the 'traditional' way (55 degrees for 3 weeks, then 4'ish weeks lagering). The one not so great one was fermented 2 weeks @ 65 then lagered for 3-4 weeks.
I don't control for other variables so who knows but the most obvious difference is of course the fermentation schedule. I used 34/70.
Triangle test or perception? Its amazing the subtleties that we detect perceptively, and i don't want to discredit that because they matter, but served blind triangled to you would you be right 7 out of 10 times. Let alone 10 out of 10. If so good data point.
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