Warm Fermented Lager Thread

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moreb33rplz said:
Nothing scientific about my methods at all, just drinking my beer. Like I said, I don't control for variables - who knows what my experience really shows.
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The perception bias in this case feels to strong for me to personally take anything out of your data. But thanks for sharing your experiences.
 
She cleared up pretty good:

C1B97677-EDB6-4188-AEBB-EF154C843D97.jpeg
 
Took a while but this lager did finally drop clear, sometime between the 6th or so and now. It’s perfectly drinkable, but nothing stellar-not sure if it’s my recipe or the method-just a very light lager lacking in that true Märzen character
 
As a heads-up, Suregork has published a new version of his yeast family tree that includes the sequences formally published this week, which includes most of the homebrew lager yeasts. I've extracted them from the main tree over on this thread.

The first big news is that all the homebrew lager yeasts are Frohbergs, the more temperature tolerant kind - there's no Saazes. And the cerevisiae genomes are very closely related as you might expect from the very recent history of modern lager brewing. That in turn means that you can take the exact layout of the tree with a slight pinch of salt, it may change as further sequences emerge and allow us to better understand the history.

Also we don't know anything about the S. eubayanus part of their genomes which is the bit that mostly affects temperature tolerance. You have to regard lager yeast as kolsch yeast that's wearing a coat to allow it to cope better with cold temperatures, but we don't know what kind of coat each strain is wearing.

But the main take-homes are :

S-23 is the closest relative of 2001 Urquell H-strain; WLP940 Mexican and WLP515 Antwerp Ale are also close cousins.
The 34/70 story is a bit confused, as WLP830 and 2124 which are traditionally viewed as liquid versions of 34/70 are not so close to it (bearing in mind the caveats above)
However, 2112 California and WLP810 San Francisco (and ????Mangrove Jack M54 California?????) are closest to 2035 American Lager and 34/70
WLP051 California Ale V is closest to WLP840 American Lager (allegedly from Budweiser), which is not surprising I guess, and they're both quite close to WLP802/2000 Budvar.
WLP029 German/Kolsch is closest to WLP833 German Bock, 2124 Bohemian and 2206 Bavarian (allegedly Weihenstephan 206).
WLP863/1983 Cry Havoc/Fist Bump is closest to 2007 Pilsen.
WLP820 Oktoberfest looks like the root of the Frohberg tree, and presumably is close to the original German yeast that travelled to Urquell.

I'm confident that WLP800 is an ale, but still a bit sceptical that WLP838 is an ale, it may have been mixed up.
 
So I fermented a bock style lager at about 68 for 2 weeks, then bottled. It’s currently sitting at 70 degrees in bottles for the past week. Should I leave it there for 2 more weeks then move it to an fridge at 34 for a few weeks before drinking? I don’t have a means of refrigerating my fermenter so this may be my only option.
 
If you have plenty on hand, I’d open one and see how it’s going after two weeks. If not ready yet try again in a week, and so on, until I gained enough experience to make a better guess.
 
I tried warm fermentation for the first time on a marzen, and I think I messed it up somehow. It is 3 weeks out and a week into cold crashing and th e esters are overpowering. I can smell the sulfur as well.

It doesn't taste that bad, but it isn't great either.

I used L28 Urkel, and I fermented at 64 degrees.

Is it just the strain? Will it clean up if I leave it? Super cloudy still even though I hit it with gelatin.
 
From what I understand the ‘Saaz’ strains aren’t as receptive to the idea of warm ferment as are the ‘Frohberg’ strains. Urkel would fall into the former vs the later.

However, with the latest yeast genome study out, there may have to be a different selection criteria.
 
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Actually be happy if it's just the yeast because I can't for the life of me spot what I did wrong on the fermentation.
 
brewbama said:
From what I understand the ‘Saaz’ strains aren’t as receptive to the idea of warm ferment as are the ‘Frohberg’ strains. Urkel would fall into the former vs the later.
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Given that Imperial compare it to WLP800 (ale) and 2001 (Frohberg) I wouldn't bank on that...
 
This is the fermentation on a Dunkel. Fast start and fast full attenuated finish (about 4 daze). It is very similar to other lagers lately with the secret being pitch a lot of yeast.

IMG_1213.JPG
 
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Brewbama is right about pitching a lot of yeast. The last lager I did was a dopple bock and the yeast calculator said to do a 14L starter. I made a 5 gal low abv batch as my starter. Figured may as well get some beer out of it. The starter beer was not my favorite, but the DB tasted really good in the sample (the beer is still lagering). :mug:
 
First room temperature lager is 7 days in my fermentasaurus at 70-ish degrees 34/70 at 15 psi. There is no diacetyl present but there is a lot of sulfur in the aroma. Will this age out? Should I keg and cold crash or let it sit longer?
 
I’m not sure if the sulfur will age out or not. I’ve not experienced this issue with 34/70, MJ Cali Common, or S-189 though I am only 5 beers deep into the technique. Additionally, I’ve not fermented that warm. The highest I’ve gone is 65*F and I’ve settled at 62*F.

My goal is to catch the beer at 5 point prior to FG, transfer it to a keg with a spunding valve installed, let it finish, cold crash, lager, condition, then consume the keg. If I miss the 5 point window I transfer, prime, referment, cold crash, lager, condition, then consume the keg. Not sure where you are on that timeline.
 
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Bottling my marzen tonight. First batch bottled in 6 months so I need to reignite the beer bonfire. Hope this kicks off a flurry of batches thru fall and winter. My next batch will be a Westvleteren 12 clone which is my guilty pleasure. Have been wanting some for a year now!
 
Sulfur is common with lager yeast and will age out. The slightest bit could be a desirable trait to some. It has been discussed here iirc. It needs to age out, before you bottle or keg. Otherwise it can be trapped. My experience has led to more sulfur if yeast is pitched into too warm of wort. But it ages out. Haha, I kegged some sulfury beer and let gas out and filled it until it was all but gone. Process took a few weeks iirc. If you have sulfur that is not the worst sign.
 
BUCKNUTS said:
First room temperature lager is 7 days in my fermentasaurus at 70-ish degrees 34/70 at 15 psi. There is no diacetyl present but there is a lot of sulfur in the aroma. Will this age out? Should I keg and cold crash or let it sit longer?
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Sulfur has aged out in the fermentor for me. I've gotten it with hefeweisen yeast. I don't know if it will go away in the keg/bottle. I know I would not tranfer until I had given it ample time to go away.
 
passedpawn said:
Sulfur has aged out in the fermentor for me. I've gotten it with hefeweisen yeast. I don't know if it will go away in the keg/bottle. I know I would not tranfer until I had given it ample time to go away.
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Thanks I took the pressure ferment lid off and put an airlock on it to hopefully allow the sulfur to off gas. I watched a beersmith podcast with Chris White and John Blichmann and they fermented lagers under various pressures at 68 degrees with a normal cool fermented lager as a control and the warm lager under 1 bar of pressure produced the least amount of esthers and diacytl as measured by mass spectrometry analysis. Attenuation was very similar in all the beers. 2 1/2 weeks in and still lots of sulfur in the aroma. Warm fermenting a lager strain didn't work for me but maybe I will try again with a different lager strain like the White Labs High Pressure Lager yeast.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/01/1...s-white-john-blichmann-beersmith-podcast-163/
 
OK, just brewed my first batch using this method and it is now in the fermentor. Using Imperial harvest yeast I brewed a Helles. I will keep you all posted of my results.
 
LokiM4 said:
Took a while but this lager did finally drop clear, sometime between the 6th or so and now. It’s perfectly drinkable, but nothing stellar-not sure if it’s my recipe or the method-just a very light lager lacking in that true Märzen character
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Well this has matured nicely-given some additional time cold it really is tasty-die hard BMC drinkers I have try it finish the glass. Other craft/homebrew drinkers really think the October character is there and compare it very favorably to Sam Adams October and other commercial examples.
 
Regardless of what you choose as your first lager my recommendations are: pitch plenty of yeast, control temp, and try to eliminate O2 — on the hot side if you can but especially on the cold side (close transfer to a purged keg, a few points shy of finishing if you spund, and close transfer gelatin if you use it as a fining agent).
 
At 1g/liter I am looking at 9.6 grams as I do 2.5 gallons. I plan to pitch a whole pack of 34/70 in to whatever I brew.
 
Sorry if this is covered in the previous 30 pages . . .

I previously avoided lagers as I only have a Brew jacket to control temperature.

However, after a 34/70 lecture at Homebrew Con I tried a Pils then a Fest Bier. Both were fermented with 2 packs sprinkled on top.

The Pils was fermented at 64 for about 3 weeks. Tasted great at bottling. 2 weeks later still very good but with a red apple ester. Not green but red. 3 more days and all the bitterness (hop flavor but mostly perceived IBUs) dropped and a bit more red apple. ( I did take first entering this as a German export though)

Festbier was fermented at 50-ish, raised to 68 then back down. I don’t remember the days at each stop and I’m away from my notes. This too has red apple.

Any thoughts on the where the ester is coming from? I thought about trying with 3 packs although fermentation seemed brisk enough not the others. Any thoughts on the bitterness dropping out?
 
I'm looking to start to branch out into lagers in the coming months, both cold and warm fermented. I tend to reuse my ale slurries for two or three generations before opening a new package, is the same possible for 34/70? If I pitch a fresh pack and ferment at ale temps, is it a bad idea to pitch the next generation at traditional lager temps?
 
GoodTimeCharlie said:
Sorry if this is covered in the previous 30 pages . . .

I previously avoided lagers as I only have a Brew jacket to control temperature.

However, after a 34/70 lecture at Homebrew Con I tried a Pils then a Fest Bier. Both were fermented with 2 packs sprinkled on top.

The Pils was fermented at 64 for about 3 weeks. Tasted great at bottling. 2 weeks later still very good but with a red apple ester. Not green but red. 3 more days and all the bitterness (hop flavor but mostly perceived IBUs) dropped and a bit more red apple. ( I did take first entering this as a German export though)

Festbier was fermented at 50-ish, raised to 68 then back down. I don’t remember the days at each stop and I’m away from my notes. This too has red apple.

Any thoughts on the where the ester is coming from? I thought about trying with 3 packs although fermentation seemed brisk enough not the others. Any thoughts on the bitterness dropping out?
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Only thing I can say is ethylhexanoate (red apple) is an ester produced by yeast. I have not had a warm fermented lager take three weeks to finish. If it finished prior to the three weeks, do you suppose the extra time on the yeast could have caused the ester development?

I have used 2 packs of 34/70 and S-189 in a few lagers now at 62* and 65*F but have not experienced this ester in my beer. At 62* I am only 3* higher than the OEM spec so I wouldn’t expect wild off flavors. I used 65*F based on the same Fermentis presentation also with great results. Each of these beers finished between 4 and 6 daze.

Bitterness dropping can be an early sign of oxidation. If the beer did finish prior to the three weeks, leaving it in the fermenter might not have helped it. My goal is to catch a beer with a few points left until completion and close transfer to a purged, sanitized, spunded keg. I don’t always catch it but I try.

The presence of living yeast in the bottles/casks will prevent beer oxidation and increase its shelf life. It will also provide mouthfeel and roundness to the beer. Plus the added bonus of freeing up the fermenter sooner and free carbonation.
 
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Bohern said:
OK, just brewed my first batch using this method and it is now in the fermentor. Using Imperial harvest yeast I brewed a Helles. I will keep you all posted of my results.
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Welp, the first batch didn't turn out so good. It is drinkable for me maybe but not for any friends. I get a sulphur note on the nose as soon as it is poured. It tastes ok, but so far disappointed.
 
Sulfur is normal with lager yeast, it needs to age out before you keg or bottle. The slightest hint could be seen as desirable.
Bohern said:
Welp, the first batch didn't turn out so good. It is drinkable for me maybe but not for any friends. I get a sulphur note on the nose as soon as it is poured. It tastes ok, but so far disappointed.
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applescrap said:
Sulfur is normal with lager yeast, it needs to age out before you keg or bottle. The slightest hint could be seen as desirable.
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Well problem is I have already kegged and did gelatin fining. I have removed it from gas and will just de-gas and lager for a while in my kegerator or is it toast?
 

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