Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[cmac62]

Brewbama, tonight I'm tapping my Cali Common brewed with WL SF Lager at the same temps. The samples have been outstanding. Super clean letting the malt shine.

 

[brewbama]

Brewbama, tonight I'm tapping my Cali Common brewed with WL SF Lager at the same temps. The samples have been outstanding. Super clean letting the malt shine.

Cheers!

 

[JstnMoyer]

I am 24 hours into fermentation of a 1.066 Marzen (overshot OG) with 1 pack of 34/70. Activity has just begun with a thin head of foam and airlock starting to bubble. I am posting this here because I was planning to warm ferment at 65-68°f but I ended up putting the carboy in a clothing tote box half way filled with cold water. Rotating 6 frozen water bottles 2 to 3 times a day. I draped a cold, wet towel over the carboy and I have a small fan blowing on it. Temp has settled to 58-60°f. If I keep it there throughout fermentation, I'd say that it's pretty easy to at least keep temps in the upper 50s with items you might already have in your home. Though, I will be brewing this again but at room temp to compare notes.

I plan to diacetyl rest at room temp once fermentation starts to subside. I will bottle on day 10 or 14 or so then put the bottles in the back of the fridge for 4+ weeks.

As for the overshot OG on what I am calling my birthday festbier, I may dilute with a quart or 2 of water in my bottle conditioning solution. This will keep me from getting too crazy on my birthday in 6 weeks when I hope to have a drinkable lager to enjoy.

 

[cmac62]

So I tapped the Cali Common and it tastes great. No off flavors that I could tell, very clean and a nice malt forward beer.

 

[brewbama]

Nice. I think I ran into a stall in my MJ Cali Common ferment. I see no fermentation activity but I am still a few points high from my anticipated FG. I’ve been warned of the slow down at the end for this strain. I’ll let it go to the end of the week and check again to see if it’s any lower.

 

[moreb33rplz]

1 more data point.

I brewed my first pilsner 2 months ago and it was great. Fermented 34/70 @ 55 for 2 weeks, 65 for 1 week, then lagered around 40 for 2-3 weeks.

I warm fermented the same recipe recently, again using 34/70. 3 weeks @ 67, and had a taste last night after lagering it at 40 for 10 days. It did not taste good. Couldn't describe the off-flavor exactly but defnitely yeasty - would guess banana/clove esters, maybe fusel alcohol? Not sure about descriptors other than not tasty.

Am going to let it lager another 2-3 weeks and try again.

 

[ncbrewer]

Nice. I think I ran into a stall in my MJ Cali Common ferment. I see no fermentation activity but I am still a few points high from my anticipated FG. I’ve been warned of the slow down at the end for this strain. I’ll let it go to the end of the week and check again to see if it’s any lower.

How long has it been fermenting? I've tried MJ54 twice and got very slow fermentation both times. 29 days the first time. The second is still in the fermenter - still dropping after 33 days.

 

[brewbama]

How long has it been fermenting? I've tried MJ54 twice and got very slow fermentation both times. 29 days the first time. The second is still in the fermenter - still dropping after 33 days.

Today is day nine. I plan to check SG again tomorrow.

One side effect of warm fermented lagers I’ve read about is (supposed to be) the fast pace ferment. In the past when I would ferment lagers in the mid 50(s) I would experience airlock activity plodding along thru to complete ferment in ~14 days. (I know airlock activity does not equal fermentation - but it’s an indicator) With this strain I anticipated a faster finish.

So far, minus the airlock activity (which I am not overly concerned about), I may be doing at best a few days quicker with this ferment. I kept the sample which is now down to 1.012 (76%AA. With minimum cited at 77% one point off is within tolerance around here). I was anticipating ~1.010. I surely hope that 29-33 days is not the norm to get to lower for this strain. That dog don’t hunt in my brewery.

We’ll see tomorrow. It’ll be packaged at 1.012 if that’s where it is. If that is the case, 10 days isn’t bad (though not the fast lager ferment I’ve read about) ...but the proof is in the pudding. 10 days to ferment bad or even mediocre beer may dissuade me against this strain. Again, we’ll see.

 

[zonkman]

Looking for a warm fermented 34/70 recipe. Preferably something unusual - spicy, fruity, whatnot. Any good ones?

Warm fermenting that 34/70 on a Kentucky Common at present.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

nothing spicy or fruity but you can add, it's good
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/711678/ozarks-vienna-lager/244795

 

[Genuine]

I have my Oktoberfest currently fermenting away around 70 degrees. Did a 10 gallon batch. 34/70 Showed signs of fermentation less than 12 hours after pitch!

 

[applescrap]

1 more data point.

I brewed my first pilsner 2 months ago and it was great. Fermented 34/70 @ 55 for 2 weeks, 65 for 1 week, then lagered around 40 for 2-3 weeks.

I warm fermented the same recipe recently, again using 34/70. 3 weeks @ 67, and had a taste last night after lagering it at 40 for 10 days. It did not taste good. Couldn't describe the off-flavor exactly but defnitely yeasty - would guess banana/clove esters, maybe fusel alcohol? Not sure about descriptors other than not tasty.

Am going to let it lager another 2-3 weeks and try again.

Awesome, thanks for sharing your data point. Its important. Having drank over 75 gallons of warm fermented lager by now I cant say I have ever tasted banana or clove esters. I have tasted sulphur and perhaps acetaldehyde. Have you blind triangled with the other. Perception bias is real and strong. I thought my last batch sucked and yet picked it thinking it was the bud light!

 

[ba-brewer]

1 more data point.

I brewed my first pilsner 2 months ago and it was great. Fermented 34/70 @ 55 for 2 weeks, 65 for 1 week, then lagered around 40 for 2-3 weeks.

I warm fermented the same recipe recently, again using 34/70. 3 weeks @ 67, and had a taste last night after lagering it at 40 for 10 days. It did not taste good. Couldn't describe the off-flavor exactly but defnitely yeasty - would guess banana/clove esters, maybe fusel alcohol? Not sure about descriptors other than not tasty.

Am going to let it lager another 2-3 weeks and try again.

Banana is an ester and clove is a phenolic off flavor(POF). Lagers yeasts can make esters but I believe they do not create POF. Most wild yeasts are POF positive (POS+).

I had a cold fermented wheat lager that had similar flavor and the consensus was it got contaminated. Was the second beer with clove and banana a repitch or fresh pitch?

 

[brewbama]

1 more data point.

I brewed my first pilsner 2 months ago and it was great. Fermented 34/70 @ 55 for 2 weeks, 65 for 1 week, then lagered around 40 for 2-3 weeks.

I warm fermented the same recipe recently, again using 34/70. 3 weeks @ 67, and had a taste last night after lagering it at 40 for 10 days. It did not taste good. Couldn't describe the off-flavor exactly but defnitely yeasty - would guess banana/clove esters, maybe fusel alcohol? Not sure about descriptors other than not tasty.

Am going to let it lager another 2-3 weeks and try again.

That is an interesting data point that I’ve seen elsewhere when using 34/70 warm.

As another data point: Denny Conn recently told me he’s used 34/70 numerous times in the mid 60(s) with no ill effect. He said it makes a great clean Ale yeast.

Given these two (a many other) opposing views there doesn’t seem to be rhyme or reason. Hopefully it mellows for you.

 

[moreb33rplz]

1 more data point.

I brewed my first pilsner 2 months ago and it was great. Fermented 34/70 @ 55 for 2 weeks, 65 for 1 week, then lagered around 40 for 2-3 weeks.

I warm fermented the same recipe recently, again using 34/70. 3 weeks @ 67, and had a taste last night after lagering it at 40 for 10 days. It did not taste good. Couldn't describe the off-flavor exactly but defnitely yeasty - would guess banana/clove esters, maybe fusel alcohol? Not sure about descriptors other than not tasty.

Am going to let it lager another 2-3 weeks and try again.

Drinking this again now. It's not a dumper but not as good as the cold fermented lager I've made. of course, could be another variable other than temp who knows. Still drinkable - going to chill it really cold and put 'er down.

Don't know how to describe the flavor. Seems yeast related.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Drinking this again now. It's not a dumper but not as good as the cold fermented lager I've made. of course, could be another variable other than temp who knows. Still drinkable - going to chill it really cold and put 'er down.

Don't know how to describe the flavor. Seems yeast related.

What's your gravity look like now and how far do you have left to go?

 

[ncbrewer]

I'll pass along some email info from Mangrove Jack's:

ME: I tried M54 for the first time a few months ago. Fermentation was very slow. It was an extract batch with 50/50 Pilsner and Munich malt. I typically take a gravity reading after 15 to 20 days, and again two days later. It's always stable, and I bottle. On the M54 batch I took the following gravity samples:

18 days - 1.0148 and hazy.
20 days - 1.0139 (down 0.0009) and still hazy.
26 days - 1.0132 (down by another 0.0007), but clear
29 days - 1.0129 and clear. Bottled.

Process description:
Yeast: Mangrove Jack's M54. One pouch, used 21 months before expiration date.
Yeast was rehydrated at 81F in boiled and cooled tap water
Used bottling hydrometer with 0.0005 graduations - can easily read to nearest 0.00025
Pitching temp 65F
Lag time was normal (bubbling the next morning)
Active fermentation temp - 67F (four days)
Fermentation temp after active - 70F
Checked hydrometer calibration - good
Gravity numbers are corrected for temperature, but there was very little difference in temperatures of the various samples
4.9 gallons to fermenter
OG 1.055
Samples were decarbonated before reading the gravity

The only thing different than my normal process is the M54 yeast.

I thought what I experienced was a fluke and tried it again in my latest batch. Fermentation was very slow again - 40 days total, with five gravity samples.

Are there any known issues that would explain the slow fermentation with this yeast? Maybe something inherent in the strain, or exposure to heat at some point? I wondered about rehydration temperature since the instructions don't discuss the California Lager Yeast fermented at ale temperatures. But I expect that rehydrating at 81F should be fine - ?

Any help would be appreciated.

MJ: No known issue with M54, confirming he used 1 re hydrated pack for the the 4.9 gal.

Assuming this was a fresh pack and not had poor transport between us and the customer. Our yeast contain at least 5x10^9 viable cells per gram, this means there are at least 5x10^10 viable cells per pack, but normally you are looking at 200 billion cells per pack.

For a ‘lager’ you should be using 1.5 million cells per ml per degress plato

For 18548ml (4.9 gals) of lager at 13.5 plato (1.055 SG) = 3.76x10^11 cells of yeast for this beer

3.76x10^11 cells / 200 billion cells per pack = 1.88 packs of yeast for this brew

Therefore I would expect that the ferment was a bit sluggish based on one pack

ME: Thanks very much for the considered response - impressive considering the number of users of Mangrove Jack's yeast. You discussed pitch rate for lagers, but I was under the impression that a lager yeast pitched and fermented at ale temperatures would normally be pitched at the ale yeast rate - lots of brewers do this. I couldn't find any instructions on the website concerning rehydration temperature or pitching rate for this yeast/temperature combination. Do you know if this has been tested or just an assumption?

MJ: Here is a link to rehydration information you are after
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...68-8d16-673b5fb84f75.pdf?16489226078703376035

ME: Thanks for that. But the pitching rate information covers two alternatives: 1) Ales and 2) “Lagers to be fermented at 14°C (57°F) or lower”. There is no mention of lager yeast pitched and fermented at ale temperatures. Based on what I've read and what the tech data seems to imply, it seems that the ale pitching rate would apply when lager yeast is used at ale temperatures. Is it possible this has never been tested?

MJ: Our tech team have advised that this is a hybrid strain that is classed as a lager strain regardless of temperature, and the aim is a clean fermentation profile. Therefore, the pitching rate also needs to ensure that the yeast are under the least amount of stress possible. As a result, the lager pitching rate is applied rather than the ale.

 

[Miraculix]

I'll pass along some email info from Mangrove Jack's:

ME: I tried M54 for the first time a few months ago. Fermentation was very slow. It was an extract batch with 50/50 Pilsner and Munich malt. I typically take a gravity reading after 15 to 20 days, and again two days later. It's always stable, and I bottle. On the M54 batch I took the following gravity samples:

18 days - 1.0148 and hazy.
20 days - 1.0139 (down 0.0009) and still hazy.
26 days - 1.0132 (down by another 0.0007), but clear
29 days - 1.0129 and clear. Bottled.

Process description:
Yeast: Mangrove Jack's M54. One pouch, used 21 months before expiration date.
Yeast was rehydrated at 81F in boiled and cooled tap water
Used bottling hydrometer with 0.0005 graduations - can easily read to nearest 0.00025
Pitching temp 65F
Lag time was normal (bubbling the next morning)
Active fermentation temp - 67F (four days)
Fermentation temp after active - 70F
Checked hydrometer calibration - good
Gravity numbers are corrected for temperature, but there was very little difference in temperatures of the various samples
4.9 gallons to fermenter
OG 1.055
Samples were decarbonated before reading the gravity

The only thing different than my normal process is the M54 yeast.

I thought what I experienced was a fluke and tried it again in my latest batch. Fermentation was very slow again - 40 days total, with five gravity samples.

Are there any known issues that would explain the slow fermentation with this yeast? Maybe something inherent in the strain, or exposure to heat at some point? I wondered about rehydration temperature since the instructions don't discuss the California Lager Yeast fermented at ale temperatures. But I expect that rehydrating at 81F should be fine - ?

Any help would be appreciated.

MJ: No known issue with M54, confirming he used 1 re hydrated pack for the the 4.9 gal.

Assuming this was a fresh pack and not had poor transport between us and the customer. Our yeast contain at least 5x10^9 viable cells per gram, this means there are at least 5x10^10 viable cells per pack, but normally you are looking at 200 billion cells per pack.

For a ‘lager’ you should be using 1.5 million cells per ml per degress plato

For 18548ml (4.9 gals) of lager at 13.5 plato (1.055 SG) = 3.76x10^11 cells of yeast for this beer

3.76x10^11 cells / 200 billion cells per pack = 1.88 packs of yeast for this brew

Therefore I would expect that the ferment was a bit sluggish based on one pack

ME: Thanks very much for the considered response - impressive considering the number of users of Mangrove Jack's yeast. You discussed pitch rate for lagers, but I was under the impression that a lager yeast pitched and fermented at ale temperatures would normally be pitched at the ale yeast rate - lots of brewers do this. I couldn't find any instructions on the website concerning rehydration temperature or pitching rate for this yeast/temperature combination. Do you know if this has been tested or just an assumption?

MJ: Here is a link to rehydration information you are after
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...68-8d16-673b5fb84f75.pdf?16489226078703376035

ME: Thanks for that. But the pitching rate information covers two alternatives: 1) Ales and 2) “Lagers to be fermented at 14°C (57°F) or lower”. There is no mention of lager yeast pitched and fermented at ale temperatures. Based on what I've read and what the tech data seems to imply, it seems that the ale pitching rate would apply when lager yeast is used at ale temperatures. Is it possible this has never been tested?

MJ: Our tech team have advised that this is a hybrid strain that is classed as a lager strain regardless of temperature, and the aim is a clean fermentation profile. Therefore, the pitching rate also needs to ensure that the yeast are under the least amount of stress possible. As a result, the lager pitching rate is applied rather than the ale.

Ok, two packs it is then.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Although this wouldn't qualify as a "warm fermented lager", I have recently relaxed a few things to try them out. My tap water for my chiller runs about 80 degrees this time of year, so I can't chill to pitching temps without ice water. So instead I've been doing a half-chill (using the CFC to get down to ~100, then in the fermentation fridge). I normally like to wait until the temperature of the wort is 3-5 degrees below my target fermentation temp to pitch. But that's hard to do with a half-chill because the time between brewing and pitching is extended, and I don't want to let it sit any longer before pitching than I have to.

So I brewed a pilsner yesterday. Got it down to about 96 degrees with the chiller, and it went into the fridge. This morning I wanted to pitch before going to work, and it was only down to 63. Either way, I pitched 4 packs of W-34/70 into 11 gallons of wort, and it'll continue chilling during the course of the day.

It's not "warm fermented", so to speak, but I'm testing to see if I can relax process a little without harming the final product.

 

[Miraculix]

Although this wouldn't qualify as a "warm fermented lager", I have recently relaxed a few things to try them out. My tap water for my chiller runs about 80 degrees this time of year, so I can't chill to pitching temps without ice water. So instead I've been doing a half-chill (using the CFC to get down to ~100, then in the fermentation fridge). I normally like to wait until the temperature of the wort is 3-5 degrees below my target fermentation temp to pitch. But that's hard to do with a half-chill because the time between brewing and pitching is extended, and I don't want to let it sit any longer before pitching than I have to.

So I brewed a pilsner yesterday. Got it down to about 96 degrees with the chiller, and it went into the fridge. This morning I wanted to pitch before going to work, and it was only down to 63. Either way, I pitched 4 packs of W-34/70 into 11 gallons of wort, and it'll continue chilling during the course of the day.

It's not "warm fermented", so to speak, but I'm testing to see if I can relax process a little without harming the final product.

As far as I understood it, it is quite a normal practice when brewing a traditional lager to start at a higher temperature to get the yeast going quicker. Ideally the cooling is started before the yeast really wakes up so that the desired temperature is reached at the point when the yeast starts to do it's yeasty thing.

Sounds to me like this is what you did.

 

[Grog Eisenbein]

Hi again. Thought I should share a few thoughts and experiences from my first attempt at fermenting a lager at warm(ish) temperatures.

As an important objective was to learn, I composed a very simple pilsner recipe (Read more about it on page 28) intended to be transparent to any mistakes and off-flavors.

I did a split batch, using the two lager yeasts 34/70 and S-189 at around 17 degrees Celsius. Initially I thought both produced a buttery off-flavor, but after more than a month on the yeast cake it was all gone. I proceeded to bottle the beer about three weeks ago, and have enjoyed many a bottle since.

Both have cleared up nicely and are highly quaffable. The 34/70 one is very clean, displays the Hallertau hops very well and has very classic pilsner qualities. The one fermented with S-189 seems a bit drier (Although they finished at the same SG), the hops seem to take the back seat a little bit, and also there seems to be just a little bit of fruit. Perhaps the slightest whiff of banana, but it might be my imagination.

All in all both beers are very enjoyable, and I would not hesitate to use either yeast type again.

 

[moreb33rplz]

What's your gravity look like now and how far do you have left to go?

It's all done, it finished at 1.010 about 3 weeks ago.

Also, FWIW, I chilled it down to 38 or so, and have sipped a few more and it's pretty good. I still taste something that makes it not as good as I want (butter maybe?), but it is still quaffable.

For yet another data point I kegged my 3rd batch, this one a pilsner fermented at 60 with 34/70. The hydro sample was delicious. But now I'm hesitant to try new things so I am going to lager it for 3 weeks before I consume.

 

[Fontaine]

This one turned out pretty great. Shiner Bock, in my book, is one of those beers that I can drink anytime and works for most people who visit my house. With MJ54 I can make this all year with very little effort, warm ferm, and as you can see from the SG curve, a quick turnaround.

If you don’t mind me asking, did you buy a kit or did you make your own recipe to clone shiner bock? Shiner is my favorite beer but unfortunately I can’t purchase it where I live so I recently brewed the AHS extract kit with S23. I’m excited to see how it turns out, should be ready for drinking on the 13th!

 

[TNJake]

If you don’t mind me asking, did you buy a kit or did you make your own recipe to clone shiner bock? Shiner is my favorite beer but unfortunately I can’t purchase it where I live so I recently brewed the AHS extract kit with S23. I’m excited to see how it turns out, should be ready for drinking on the 13th!

If you're doing extract then the Texas bock by AHS is great. That's where I started. Check their all-grain version recipe. That is what I started with and have only done a few tweaks to that one. Nothing super secret about the changes to AHS recipe but I don't have them with me at work.

I would like to point out that I don't let AHS mill my grain anymore. They always seem to only barely crack it and I couldn't hit OG numbers.

I also have been working on Yuengling clone if you like this style of beer.

 

[ZmannR2]

Been fermenting at 53 for 10 days. How long should I bring it up to 65 for the d rest before lagering?

 

[applescrap]

Been fermenting at 53 for 10 days. How long should I bring it up to 65 for the d rest before lagering?

In a warm fermented lager the d rest isnt a factor. At happy yeast temps they saw right through and ferment rapidly. That said they need wait time imo to really shine. That said I start drinking them right away.

I dont know the answer to your question, but depending on how much it has fermented, I think you would let it sit at 65 for two weeks, then put in a carboy and let lager until you can see through it. Well at least I heard chris white say that's how he does it. The lagering part. He puts them in fridge and waits until they are absolutely 100 crystal clear. I have been known to rack, force carb and drink a pint warm while watching football on Sunday. Best of luck hope it turns out well.

 

[ba-brewer]

2 or 3 days is all that needed for a D-rest. Best to start when still active like somewhere between 75 and 90% to target FG.

this is a link on how to do a test for diacetyl or it precursors. Could do the test to see if you need the D-rest or do it at the end of the rest.
https://www.winning-homebrew.com/diacetyl-test.html

 

[Waytoochewy]

Been following this thread for a few months, and have read every post over the years. Thanks to all that have contributed and enabled me to brew a lager!

My addition: 5 week ago, Brewed a traditional Bavarian Pils using fermentis W34/70 warm. Read the feedback suggesting MJ as superior but really liked the idea of a traditional yeast even if it requires a little more consideration.

Specifically, used an Evap-only swamp cooler with fan yielding 62-63F ‘boundary’ temp on external wall of 3 gal fermonster. Internal beer/wort temp was ~65F at highest point, based on measurement. Kept swamp cooler active for 3 days, then turned it off and allowed ferm vessel to rise to ~72F. Kept at 72F for 12 days. Was amazed how long it continued produce bubbles. Days 0-3 were light malty smelling. Days 5-12 were quite sulfur-y. After that, gas production declined and smell was neutral again.

At day 14 added gelatin and cold crashed to 38F in primary for 5 days. Day 20, beer was kegged from primary and allowed to cold condition/lager under CO2 12 psi for 14 days (5 weeks total since brew). Was on the fence about gelatin but miraculix’s feedback convinced me. End product is VERY clear. Tried the beer yesterday and it was very refined & light. No hint of sulfur; No diacetyl. SWMBO and friends thumbs up. I was very impressed by the process and amazed the product was possible with rudimentary/basic temp control at lager-warm temps. (I use the same process for ales)

Would recommend the controlled warm lager process to others. Also have a marzen brewing under process. Will advise in 3 weeks.

Again, thanks to all for posts over the years. Wouldn’t have attempted this otherwise and definitely happy with results—thanks!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Another yeast for people to try - White Labs WLP838 Southern German Lager Yeast which the latest sequencing shows to be an ale yeast. No idea how it fits into the family tree yet but one might guess it could be the missing link between the kolsch yeasts and WLP800 Pilsner. White Labs give it similar brewing parameters to WLP800, so it should flocc nicely.

The same group has sequenced a bunch of lager yeasts, so hopefully it will be possible to work out which are Saaz and which Frohberg - the latter should be more high-temperature friendly. It includes Wyeast 2112 California and WLP810 San Francisco, which will hopefully give some insight by analogy about this thread's favourite Mangrove Jack yeast.

 

[Genuine]

Here’s my Oktoberfest at kegging. Fermented this the entire time at 70 degrees. Can’t wait to see how it is when carbed and ready to serve! Tastes amazing thus far!