Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[balrog]

To me, S189 was hella-sulfury; stir-each-pint-with-copper-tube sulfury.
Made huge starter, 2.0 million per ml deg Plato, fermented at 68F.

 

[wdavis2003]

I really like S-189, also like S-23. 34/70 doesn’t give me much. Every time I use it I get nothing. That’s ok for Pils where you have hops. Current is my first WF lager. Pitched mid 50’s and ambient fermented in low 60’s. Climbed to 68-70 after 5 days. Really surprised me how good it is

I've had great results with s-23. need to give s-189 a shot

 

[dmtaylor]

I've had no problems with S-189, I like it a lot. Might need an extra week or two of aging if there's sulfur or diacetyl... SAME AS ANY OTHER LAGER YEAST, IMO.

 

[tracer bullet]

I'm currently fermenting what I'll call a "Cold PA" - 80% Pils malt, 20% corn, Cascade and Mandarina Bavaria throughout, 35ish IBU, and 34/70 yeast. Currently fermenting away at 60F.

I'm thinking I'll monitor it getting close to finished fermenting (ETA 1-2 weeks TBD), next let it rise to maybe 70F over a few days, then semi cold crash it and finally add the dry hops. I'll let them sit around 3 days, then keg the beer. I'm pretty good at closed transfers and having beer be good for about a month before I eventually begin to notice a slow but noticeable loss of hop flavor.

I'm kind of struggling with 2 schools of thought - lagering for a while vs. getting to it soon while the hops are still more potent. Any thoughts on this? Will the hops overwhelm anything I miss if I skip the lagering?

(It's my 2nd lager ever and first time using 34/70, hoping I made a good choice with it)

 

[Miraculix]

I'm currently fermenting what I'll call a "Cold PA" - 80% Pils malt, 20% corn, Cascade and Mandarina Bavaria throughout, 35ish IBU, and 34/70 yeast. Currently fermenting away at 60F.

I'm thinking I'll monitor it getting close to finished fermenting (ETA 1-2 weeks TBD), next let it rise to maybe 70F over a few days, then semi cold crash it and finally add the dry hops. I'll let them sit around 3 days, then keg the beer. I'm pretty good at closed transfers and having beer be good for about a month before I eventually begin to notice a slow but noticeable loss of hop flavor.

I'm kind of struggling with 2 schools of thought - lagering for a while vs. getting to it soon while the hops are still more potent. Any thoughts on this? Will the hops overwhelm anything I miss if I skip the lagering?

(It's my 2nd lager ever and first time using 34/70, hoping I made a good choice with it)

In my oppinion, give it two to three weeks and you hit it's prime. A must is a minimised headspace in the bottle (about 0.5 cm), if you are bottling and bottle conditioning. Otherwise, same goes for priming in the keg.

 

[Shenanigans]

Just measured it and it's already at 1.023 after 4 days.
I'll ramp er up by 1 degree a day until Sunday then it will be the same temperature as my basement so I can take it out of the fridge to make room to soft crash an IPA. I plan on bottling it the weekend after this.

Well it finished at 1.015 after 2 weeks. 1 week at soft crash temperatures and 1 week at room temperature.
I bottled it 2 days ago so will report back in a few weeks.

 

[Civilian]

Has anyone warm fermented with an ale yeast then refermented cold after bottling?
Wondering what this would do?

 

[tracer bullet]

Has anyone warm fermented with an ale yeast then refermented cold after bottling?

What do you mean by refermented? It won't ferment a 2nd time.

You might get the gravity to drop a little more if you targeted certain yeasts that were low, then high attenuation. Even then I wouldn't count on it.

 

[sweetcell]

Has anyone warm fermented with an ale yeast then refermented cold after bottling?
Wondering what this would do?

to be clear, "warm fermented with an ale yeast" = a normal ale fermentation?

if yes, then refermenting (AKA bottling conditioning) cold will only result in sluggish refermentation. you won't get any flavor improvements, turning your ale into a lager, etc. and if too cold, could result in no refermentation at all. but even at lager temps, most ale yeast will eventually get the job done, with enough time... but why bother? bottle-condition your beer as close to primary ferm temps as possible (if not a tad warmer) and get the job done in a few days instead of weeks.

 

[Civilian]

Has anyone warm fermented with an ale yeast then refermented cold after bottling?
Wondering what this would do?

Not sure how ale yeast got there (too much homebrew?) was meaning a lager yeast (the whole point of this thread).lol But after thinking about it I can see no advantage as I have learned that most of the lager characteristics happen early in primary fermentation.

 

[balrog]

I have heard tell of retail ales brewed with ale yeast but different yeast is used for bottle conditioning, the yeast chosen so as not to impact flavor.

 

[rtstrider]

Anyone try fermenting wlp830 around 66F? If so any luck there?

 

[Saunassa]

Please post tasting results! I just got Nova Lager and am coming up with a plan for it.

Well here we are 2nd weekend of August. Beer has been kegged in fridge 2 weeks. The 34/70 batch is clearing nicely, can see the coppery color and nice flavor is developing.
The Novalager batch is still hazy and I hope it clears visibly in next week or I will have to try gelatin. Just tastes ok and I know that's because of suspended yeast.

 

[tracer bullet]

I just started drinking my "Cold IPA inspired" brew, made a month ago. Pils and corn, cascade and mand bav, 34/70 in the 50's. It's a bit... "lagery" for me. It's got a taste I associate with lagers but don't care for. I don't think it's sulfur, it's more a grainy sweetness but to me not a good one. It may have turned out perfectly and just isn't my style. I'll be patient of course.

The flavor I get seems to be more frequent in Helles beers, and I think and don't get it at all in say Pilsner Urquell or Peroni, if that helps anyone identify it (which I'd appreciate if anyone reads this and that makes sense at all).

 

[rtstrider]

Will say WLP830 works great at 64F ambient temps at 15psi. So far I've fermented a Helles, repitched the slurry into Yoopers Fizzy Yellow Beer, will be brewing the BYO Bitburger Pilsner clone tomorrow and going to try and get 2-3 more pitches from this strain after that. By day 7-10 this is done fermenting under pressure at least and ready for cold crash/transfer.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Is not that strain the same as W34/70?

 

[dmtaylor]

Is not that strain the same as W34/70?

It depends on who you ask. If you ask me, no.

 

[tracer bullet]

It depends on who you ask. If you ask me, no.

Are you still maintaining your spreadsheet? I downloaded a copy of it a long time ago but forgot the link to it. If you don't mind of course. I thought it was pretty great!

 

[balrog]

Are you still maintaining your spreadsheet? I downloaded a copy of it a long time ago but forgot the link to it. If you don't mind of course. I thought it was pretty great!

I have this:
[edit, ok, pasting the link made it bring in the sheet, let's try again]

Linkypoo

 

[rtstrider]

Is not that strain the same as W34/70?

Honestly I like this better for numerous reasons. It thrives with repitching and the results have been consistently reproducible. I haven't had that kind of consistency with w34/70 just yet. Now that a pressure fermenter is in the brewery that is definitely on the to do list!

 

[tenagasuryafisk]

Haven't read this whole over-sized thread, apologies, but has anyone done lager above 25/30º C?

 

[sweetcell]

Haven't read this whole over-sized thread, apologies, but has anyone done lager above 25/30º C?

generally, "warm fermented lager" means normal ale temps (belgians and norwegians excluded). 25*C (aka 77*F) is too hot for ale, let alone lager.

i've never fermented a lager yeast that hot, very curious to hear from anyone who has.

 

[Miraculix]

generally, "warm fermented lager" means normal ale temps (belgians and norwegians excluded). 25*C (aka 77*F) is too hot for ale, let alone lager.

i've never fermented a lager yeast that hot, very curious to hear from anyone who has.

Mj California Lager at about 30c in the summer! Was a tad bit fruity but a pretty decent beer overall.

 

[Yesfan]

Haven't read this whole over-sized thread, apologies, but has anyone done lager above 25/30º C?

generally, "warm fermented lager" means normal ale temps (belgians and norwegians excluded). 25*C (aka 77*F) is too hot for ale, let alone lager.

i've never fermented a lager yeast that hot, very curious to hear from anyone who has.

I did with a Mexi-lager using Imperial's Que Bueno. This beer was based loosely on Northern's Atlantico kit if interested in the recipe. I planned on pitching around 68F and pressurize to 15psi, but I could never get my Fermzilla All Rounder to hold pressure. I pitched a 3L starter at 72F and it rose easily to 75-77F. After a couple weeks, I transferred to a keg and let it "lager" for another week or two. I expected this beer to be bad, so put it out of my mind for those two weeks. It turned out great and one of the guys in my club, who's a better more experienced than me, thought it was pretty tasty.

Lessons learned: 1) Have ice on hand so it doesn't take you a lifetime to chill your wert to your pitching temps, especially with a lager yeast. 2) Know ahead of time your fermenter can and will hold pressure. I definitely want to brew this beer again, but not make those mistakes to see if that's an improvement. The takeaway at least is, I feel Que Bueno is a pretty robust lager strain. Too bad it's seasonal.

This was just another reason to see a batch all the way through if you have a sh-tty brew day.

 

[HM-2]

Can highly recommend WHC Einstein if available for pressure fermented German strong/stark lager. Did a mid-8%s Doppelbock back in late November with the aim of having packaged for Christmas; missed that target but got it in keg before NYE.

16°C start ramping to 20°C under 6 PSI, it fermented out in about 7 days. A bit alcohol-hot for two weeks after that but I left to bulk condition and it's mellowed out fantastically. Dropped crystal clear in maybe 4 weeks with minimal fining efforts (protafloc and bounce filter on transfer to keg).

The recipe needs some refining but the process was great.

 

[DuncB]

generally, "warm fermented lager" means normal ale temps (belgians and norwegians excluded). 25*C (aka 77*F) is too hot for ale, let alone lager.

i've never fermented a lager yeast that hot, very curious to hear from anyone who has.

My method in post # 2108

Latest though was Novalager yeast at 18C and then spunded, 5 psi increasing up to pressure for 2.5 vols at end of ferment.

 

[rtstrider]

I did with a Mexi-lager using Imperial's Que Bueno. This beer was based loosely on Northern's Atlantico kit if interested in the recipe. I planned on pitching around 68F and pressurize to 15psi, but I could never get my Fermzilla All Rounder to hold pressure. I pitched a 3L starter at 72F and it rose easily to 75-77F. After a couple weeks, I transferred to a keg and let it "lager" for another week or two. I expected this beer to be bad, so put it out of my mind for those two weeks. It turned out great and one of the guys in my club, who's a better more experienced than me, thought it was pretty tasty.

Lessons learned: 1) Have ice on hand so it doesn't take you a lifetime to chill your wert to your pitching temps, especially with a lager yeast. 2) Know ahead of time your fermenter can and will hold pressure. I definitely want to brew this beer again, but not make those mistakes to see if that's an improvement. The takeaway at least is, I feel Que Bueno is a pretty robust lager strain. Too bad it's seasonal.

This was just another reason to see a batch all the way through if you have a sh-tty brew day.

It's not seasonal if you use White Labs WLP940

 

[tenagasuryafisk]

generally, "warm fermented lager" means normal ale temps (belgians and norwegians excluded). 25*C (aka 77*F) is too hot for ale, let alone lager.

i've never fermented a lager yeast that hot, very curious to hear from anyone who has.

I've brewed loads of ales with various yeasts which turned out incredible at 27-32º ambient day temp

 

[sweetcell]

I've brewed loads of ales with various yeasts which turned out incredible at 27-32º ambient day temp

you've fermented british strains, or standard american strains like Chico, at or above 27*C - 81*F and up - and the beer turned out incredible? interesting. that certainly hasn't been my experience... but glad that you liked the outcome!

 

[Yesfan]

It's not seasonal if you use White Labs WLP940

Are they the same strain? This is good news if so. I still have some slurry from a left over batch in the fridge.

Still good news.

 

[rtstrider]

Are they the same strain? This is good news if so. I still have some slurry from a left over batch in the fridge.

Still good news.

Yep! It's the modelo strain. Also there's Cellar Science Baja...I have had very poor results with that dry strain though.

 

[Yesfan]

Yep! It's the modelo strain. Also there's Cellar Science Baja...I have had very poor results with that dry strain though.

Thanks!

 

[JoeSpartaNJ]

I brewed the Jim Palmer Vienna Lager kit from More Beer with 34/70 today. Pitched at 64 and plan to let it ride for 2 or 3 weeks, keg, then condition for a month or until a tap opens. This is my first attempt at this. Excited to see how it goes.

 

[jcav]

Good luck, let us know how it turns out! ^

John

 

[hilljack13]

Hello! I have tried to read through but after the first 10 pages, it is just a lot to go through. I have tried to lager before and eventually I got some of the LBMB to do test batches. Nothing good so far, but I have an Oktoberfest kit I need to get brewed...so gonna try it warm with 34/70. My room temps seem to hold between 67-71. Don't think anything wrong with this based on what I have read.

Plan is to brew, pitch ~67-68 and sit for (correct me) FG is hit. No D-rest?. Then move to a keg for some conditioning, then I can put in my fridge and lager for ~4 weeks?

Seems simple but if there is something else tried that I should consider I'd take any advice.

 

[ncbrewer]

No D-rest?

I treat warm lager fermentation the same as ale fermentation. After three days at upper 66's, I raise the temperature 5 - 10 degrees for a D-rest, and to make sure fermentation is complete in general. I don't know what others are doing about this.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

If you look up the normal properties of most lager yeasts, you'll find you are already in the zone of the temp for d-rest, thus raising the temp might invite unwanted attributes.
IMO temp stability is ingrained to lager yeasts way of living, so if going higher, go over the advertised d-rest temp and strive to stay there, to avoid things like fusel alcohols.
It's uncharted territory!

 

[Rish]

@hilljack13 , have you considered putting your LBMB in a larger container of water and keeping your temps lower by using frozen bottles of water and rotating them out for a few days? I've done this with my 5 gallon bucket FVs with success.

 

[rtstrider]

I have wlp838 warm fermenting under pressure. Not sure it that matters or not. Really curious to see how that turns out!

 

[sweetcell]

If you look up the normal properties of most lager yeasts, you'll find you are already in the zone of the temp for d-rest, thus raising the temp might invite unwanted attributes.

that's certainly one way of looking at it. another way is that a D-rest isn't about an absolute temp (i.e. must reach X degrees to achieve d-rest), rather it's about relative temp: the yeast got comfy fermenting at, say, 65*F; so you bump it up to 70*F to keep the yeast going when the going gets tough. per this POV, a d-rest still has a role to play.

as you said, this is (relatively) uncharted territory so... tbd.