Uh oh. Wild yeast? Infection?

[foscojo]

so it smelled like sweet wort and no fermentation like aromas?

Did you check the gravity before pitching the Voss?

With voss you should be about done so you wont have to wait long to taste it if you feel adventurous(or brave).

No, I wish I had thought checking the gravity again before pitching the Voss. But yes, it is almost done. Activity has dropped way off to just a of bubble / second, krausen has fallen, yeast cake formed.

 

[easttex]

Okay, some good news. So far, it just looks like beer. It was hard to get a pic of the surface through the krausen ring but I didn't see anything growing across it.

Activity is very low now. But that's normal for kviek, I hear. Hard and fast active fermentation.

Well, if it turns out well, save the trub and repitch it. You can tell everyone you have a "house strain."

 

[ba-brewer]

No, I wish I had thought checking the gravity again before pitching the Voss. But yes, it is almost done. Activity has dropped way off to just a of bubble / second, krausen has fallen, yeast cake formed.

As you are bottling I would give it a few extra days to make sure it is done fermenting and verify that with multiple gravity samples. I think you most likely have a cross contamination but if you have something wild it might continue to ferment at a slow pace.
I would also take a small taste of the beer to see if it has off flavors. It does not take much of a sample to get a good idea if it has gone bad.

 

[Garrett_McT]

I agree with ba-Brewer, if you took a gravity reading prior to pitching the real yeast culture that would have been a great way of getting a better idea of what you were dealing with. Honestly tracking the SG now until it stabilizes might also help with pointing in a direction of what it is. If it goes below the terminal gravity, it’s a contamination of a bacteria culture. But could still be good, but be cautious

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm not ordering anybody.. "dude"... The OP asked for our thoughts. My kid is an MD, would you like me to get a professional opinion why you shouldn't drink a bunch of wort that's been mysteriously fermenting or spoiling over the weekend by itself at 100F degrees?

Use best practices... you are speaking to a lot of people worldwide on this forum with varying levels of skill, education, training, experience. You tell them all to drink this stuff and some will get sick.

Yes please do. And ask him to be specific. On second thought, nevermind. Brewing science is its own profession and even a fully qualified MD might be clueless.
Whatevs.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Ok, I googled to see what temp C. botulinum thrives at, and yes, 100F is within the range. However, the acidity of the wort would be close to the tolerance level. Then there are other factors in brewing that I don't think a quick google search will tell me. Hops being one of them. Potentially, the alcohol level at this point being another. Also, I don't know how long it takes for C. botulinum to produce toxins, but what I've read, it mostly happens when something isn't properly canned and has been stored for some amount of time. The wort in question is fresh, so I don't think that it's had time to produce toxins.

Clostridium Botulinum is an anaerobic bacterium requiring an anoxic environment to reproduce. A fermenter under typical conditions does not provide that environment. Home canning=perilous; home brewing=harmless.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Roughly the same thing happened to me. Spent seven hours Saturday brewing a saison, didn't get around to pitching the yeast until Monday afternoon. Arrived home Monday to pitch my starter to this:

View attachment 736233

I dumped it because it reeked of mushrooms growing on wet dogfood. I have no time or desire to find out what innoculated while I wasn't looking. I'm going to Iodophor the whole set up before I reuse it.

Sounds like your sanitation practices are lacking.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Roughly the same thing happened to me. Spent seven hours Saturday brewing a saison, didn't get around to pitching the yeast until Monday afternoon. Arrived home Monday to pitch my starter to this:

View attachment 736233

I dumped it because it reeked of mushrooms growing on wet dogfood. I have no time or desire to find out what innoculated while I wasn't looking. I'm going to Iodophor the whole set up before I reuse it.

Just want to add, maybe you could have 'iodophor'd' the whole set up before racking fresh wort into it and avoided the whole mess? Not trying to be judgy, but 60+ batches here without a single infection, and I suspect some lax sanitation practices.

 

[Garrett_McT]

Just want to add, maybe you could have 'iodophor'd' the whole set up before racking fresh wort into it and avoided the whole mess? Not trying to be judgy, but 60+ batches here without a single infection, and I suspect some lax sanitation practices.

You’re opinion becomes important once you get a PhD, where is Chris White at?

 

[Jayjay1976]

But could still be good, but be cautious

Well, that was concise.

 

[Jayjay1976]

A general consensus doesn't create truth, it merely reflects it. That microorganisms dangerous to humans cannot reproduce in beer is widely accepted as fact.

 

[Garrett_McT]

And also a very big reason why the federal government changed the laws to allow homebrewing, because some lofty federal organization said that pathogens don’t show up in wort or beer. We are safe to be drunk and be happy! Yay us

 

[VikeMan]

If it goes below the terminal gravity, it’s a contamination of a bacteria culture.

By definition, gravity can't go below terminal gravity. But if you mean gravity below where the pitched strain alone would have taken it, it doesn't necessarily mean a bacterial infection. It could be wild yeast.

 

[Beermeister32]

A general consensus doesn't create truth, it merely reflects it. That microorganisms dangerous to humans cannot reproduce in beer is widely accepted as fact.

Alright Einstein, here is an article from the Beer & Wine Journal that botulism can build up to lethal after 3 days. Here is the article:

https://beerandwinejournal.com/q-a-botulism/
Please stop encouraging people to risk their safety. The whole idea here is safe beer making. You start causing people to do this kind of thing the next thing you will see the government step in... Or maybe some injury attorney will come after you personally...

 

[Stormcrow]

Okay, some good news. So far, it just looks like beer. It was hard to get a pic of the surface through the krausen ring but I didn't see anything growing across it.

Activity is very low now. But that's normal for kviek, I hear. Hard and fast active fermentation.
View attachment 736235View attachment 736236View attachment 736234

Crazy. If I didn't know the whole story I'd say that looks like a perfectly normal fermentation. My money is on some kind yeast that went nuts with the high temperature.

 

[Stormcrow]

Do you or anyone you know have a ph meter? It might be interesting to find out how far it dropped.

 

[foscojo]

Do you or anyone you know have a ph meter?

I have a pH test kit for my aquarium and rest strips for the pool.

 

[RM-MN]

"nothing that can harm you can survive in beer" but it isn't beer until you pitched the yeast, it was wort. Plenty of harmful bacteria might like to call that home and start multiplying. Are you sure you want to risk it? It's one batch of beer. If it were mine I think I would dump it to be on the safe side.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Beermeister32 has been reading too many Prop65 labels...

 

[easttex]

Just want to add, maybe you could have 'iodophor'd' the whole set up before racking fresh wort into it and avoided the whole mess? Not trying to be judgy, but 60+ batches here without a single infection, and I suspect some lax sanitation practices.

Well I "StarSan'd" the entire set up before pumping the wort in. I did exactly nothing different than I've done countless times before. This is my first infection in 10+ years of brewing.

My best guess is is my batch of StarSan needs replaced and/or since I brew outside, something wild found it's way in. Either way, I shan't leave raw wort sit unattended that long again.

 

[VikeMan]

My best guess is is my batch of StarSan needs replaced

Are you reusing starsan solution?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Please stop encouraging people to risk their safety.

I didn't tell anybody to do anything.

 

[Miraculix]

Well I "StarSan'd" the entire set up before pumping the wort in. I did exactly nothing different than I've done countless times before. This is my first infection in 10+ years of brewing.

My best guess is is my batch of StarSan needs replaced and/or since I brew outside, something wild found it's way in. Either way, I shan't leave raw wort sit unattended that long again.

Star San works well against bacterias but does almost nothing against yeasts. Which strengthens the theory that you got a brewer's yeast infections there

 

[easttex]

Are you reusing starsan solution?

I was, yes. Time to mix up a new batch.

Star San works well against bacterias but does almost nothing against yeasts. Which strengthens the theory that you got a brewer's yeast infections there

Likely so. Which is why I'm going to use Iodophor when I rebrew it tonight.

 

[Miraculix]

I was, yes. Time to mix up a new batch.


Likely so. Which is why I'm going to use Iodophor when I rebrew it tonight.

I don't know if iodophor works against yeasts... These guys are hardy little organisms.

I use oxyclean to soak my fermenter and everything before storage and on brew day they get sprayed with star San. Works well for me.

 

[VikeMan]

I was, yes. Time to mix up a new batch.

Five Star (the company that makes Star San) recommends using it within an hour of mixing. You can get away with longer (maybe forever) if you make it with distilled water, but either way, I wouldn't reuse it.

 

[Damnjones]

Not scaring people, just trying to talk some sense here. I'm not a microbiologist, and I don't have a degree in organic chemistry.

Why is it that some people feel the need to go off the deep end and scare people by throwing out bold statements regarding poison when the original question was regarding strange activity observed when using a new yeast?

If you havent yet asked the internet you can find some good info here.
https://beerandwinejournal.com/q-a-botulism/If you followed good clean brewing practices there is minimal risk for dangerous infections as all home brewers are aware. The key take away is if it doesnt smell off and you are confident in your process then wait and see what you get. If you dont like the taste prior to bottling then toss it.

The activity you are describing sounds somewhat normal but a bit over active and the pictures provided show that there could be kahm yeast in your beer. Nothing you have shown or described is very concerning or something I havent seen before.

Let us know how it tastes.

 

[Garrett_McT]

Alright Einstein, here is an article from the Beer & Wine Journal that botulism can build up to lethal after 3 days. Here is the article:

https://beerandwinejournal.com/q-a-botulism/
Please stop encouraging people to risk their safety. The whole idea here is safe beer making. You start causing people to do this kind of thing the next thing you will see the government step in... Or maybe some injury attorney will come after you personally...View attachment 736268

Thanks for the info. Up until now I never knew there was a chance of getting dangerous bacteria or pathogens in my wort and beer. But honestly with the higher SG of most worts the boiling point of that liquid will increase beyond the boiling point of water (which is most typically 1.0000, actually slightly lower at ATP, with a boiling point of 212 degrees F). I would be curious to dig into the boiling points of liquids with SG around 1.035, which is typically the lowest gravities I have ever seen for my beer and compare it to the required temp to kill botulism at 240.

 

[VikeMan]

I would be curious to dig into the boiling points of liquids with SG around 1.035, which is typically the lowest gravities I have ever seen for my beer and compare it to the required temp to kill botulism at 240.

Wort boils at slightly higher temps than water. Like so slightly that the difference is probably within the error of most thermometers.

 

[Beermeister32]

Thanks for the info. Up until now I never knew there was a chance of getting dangerous bacteria or pathogens in my wort and beer.

I usually pitch within a couple hours, on lagers I run it down to 46F and pitch the next morning. Never an issue.

The reason this one stuck out is that I've not seen one sit there 3 days at 100F fermenting on its' own with whatever was in the environment before adding yeast.

The published article showed that there was a potentially lethal hazard in doing that.

 

[Damnjones]

I usually pitch within a couple hours, on lagers I run it down to 46F and pitch the next morning. Never an issue.

The reason this one stuck out is that I've not seen one sit there 3 days at 100F fermenting on its' own with whatever was in the environment before adding yeast.

The published article showed that there was a potentially lethal hazard in doing that.

The high temp described in the initial post is consistent with Norwegian Kveik though. There is always the possibility to bad bacteria to enter but you should have also seen the 3 words at the end of this sentence "The conditions for the growth of C. botulinum are met by boiled wort stored in a sealed container, but not beer"

and also here

" There is not a single case of botulism attributed to making beer in the normal manner. "

While kviek is not normal with regard to temp range are we not still following the normal process for making beer?

Lets hope we hear back and this beer comes out tasting great. Hopefully we can all learn something new through other brewers experiences with Norwegian Kveik.

reference: BWJ Q & A (Botulism)

 

[Beermeister32]

Beermeister32 has been reading too many Prop65 labels...

This coming from a brewer with an "Orange Depot" logo.... You'd know, plenty of them there...!

 

[Beermeister32]

The high temp described in the initial post is consistent with Norwegian Kveik though.

Yes, but look at the original story - It didn't get the Kviek until it was fermenting on its own for 3 days at 100F, so you don't know what was growing there....

 

[Garrett_McT]

The high temp described in the initial post is consistent with Norwegian Kveik though. There is always the possibility to bad bacteria to enter but you should have also seen the 3 words at the end of this sentence "The conditions for the growth of C. botulinum are met by boiled wort stored in a sealed container, but not beer"

and also here

" There is not a single case of botulism attributed to making beer in the normal manner. "

While kviek is not normal with regard to temp range are we not still following the normal process for making beer?

Lets hope we hear back and this beer comes out tasting great. Hopefully we can all learn something new through other brewers experiences with Norwegian Kveik.

reference: BWJ Q & A (Botulism)

I agree about the aspect of a very low, almost no possibility of botulism. But the catch with the OP wort. He let it stand in the closed fermenter for two or some days before pitching the yeast. That leaves it wide open for any trace amounts of bacteria that is almost on any surface or wild yeast to grow. But yet again it’s weird that it grew enough to full krausen almost like a pure pitch vial. That seems crazy.

 

[foscojo]

He let it stand in the closed fermenter for two or some days before pitching the yeast.

40 hours. Yeah, I was shock it blew up that fast, too.

 

[ba-brewer]

Yes, but look at the original story - It didn't get the Kviek until it was fermenting on its own for 3 days at 100F, so you don't know what was growing there....

I know the safe thing to do according to that article is to dump the beer, but In about 1.5 2.5days the beer was at or past high Krausen so would that not say it did not sit the full time as wort, meaning the botulism risk should be low or not to toxic levels.

I agree about the aspect of a very low, almost no possibility of botulism. But the catch with the OP wort. He let it stand in the closed fermenter for two or some days before pitching the yeast. That leaves it wide open for any trace amounts of bacteria that is almost on any surface or wild yeast to grow. But yet again it’s weird that it grew enough to full krausen almost like a pure pitch vial. That seems crazy.

Full krausen and no fermentation aroma at 100F, too bad the voss was pitched that might been a good yeast to isolate.

edit: changed 2.5days to 1.5days was counting calendar days not by hours

 

[VikeMan]

I know the safe thing to do according to that article is to dump the beer, but In about 2.5days the beer was at or past high Krausen so would that not say it did not sit the full time as wort, meaning the botulism risk should be low or not to toxic levels.

Based on the OP, it sounds like high krausen was reached in 40 hours (or less).

 

[Jayjay1976]

So is it dangerous to store unfermented wort? Will it be sterile enough to stay fresh and safe for more than a year? What if the malt or the hops were contaminated with C. Botulinum? Boiling alone cannot deactivate the spores, that takes 250f+ yet this not an uncommon practice.

 

[foscojo]

Hot Fill Bags

Noice. I'm going to grab some of those. I may try "no chill" but if not they would be handy jic.

 

[ba-brewer]

@foscojo, what types of yeast have you recently used and how did you get the wort into the fermentor?