All NEIPA recipes taste the same

[RyPA]

I’d drop the Mosaic. It’s overpowering.

Thanks, going to sub that with Vic secret

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

I’ve been playing around with my own versions of low ABV NEIPA and trying to study what information is out there. My next step is using phantasm from More Beer and then thiolized yeast strains. I’m just changing one thing at a time, to see how it works for me, but I believe the instructions say to use the phantasm with the thiolized yeast. Bio-transformation to pull out the desired flavor notes from the hops is what I’m going after. There are several interesting podcasts available where all the above is discussed by people with more knowledge and experience than I have.

Just completed a brew using Omega Vossa-Nova new strain which, supposedly, has thiolized qualities and non-detectable diacytal production. Used Elani and Nectron for the hops. If I can remember, I'll report back otherwise results will be on the "What are you drinking now?" thread.

 

[couchsending]

You said you’re fermenting and serving in the same keg? I would point to this being the issue over anything else. Your hop character is just being muted by all the yeast still remaining in the keg you’re serving from. If you truly want unique hop character to shine you need to remove as much yeast as possible from the vessel you’re dry hopping in. Hop oils will stick to yeast cells and get dragged down and out of your beer. Plus the more those yeast cells are coated with oils the quicker they are to die. You’ve got a keg full of dead yeast you’re serving from.

Essentially without temp control and serving from the same vessel you’re just overpowering hop character with yeast character. Verdant should definitely taste way different than kviek especially Voss.

Ditch the dry hop during fermentation, it’s not doing much of anything.

It’s not hard at all to create an oxygen free environment to transfer your beer into. Wait until fermentation has finished, give it a few days and transfer (ideally with a floating dip tube) into a purged keg (look up how to purge a keg with water or fermentation) then dry hop in that keg. When adding hops have the gas hooked up to create a Co2 positive environment and then yeah purge a bunch and you should be fine.

 

[RyPA]

You said you’re fermenting and serving in the same keg? I would point to this being the issue over anything else. Your hop character is just being muted by all the yeast still remaining in the keg you’re serving from. If you truly want unique hop character to shine you need to remove as much yeast as possible from the vessel you’re dry hopping in. Hop oils will stick to yeast cells and get dragged down and out of your beer. Plus the more those yeast cells are coated with oils the quicker they are to die. You’ve got a keg full of dead yeast you’re serving from.

Essentially without temp control and serving from the same vessel you’re just overpowering hop character with yeast character. Verdant should definitely taste way different than kviek especially Voss.

Ditch the dry hop during fermentation, it’s not doing much of anything.

It’s not hard at all to create an oxygen free environment to transfer your beer into. Wait until fermentation has finished, give it a few days and transfer (ideally with a floating dip tube) into a purged keg (look up how to purge a keg with water or fermentation) then dry hop in that keg. When adding hops have the gas hooked up to create a Co2 positive environment and then yeah purge a bunch and you should be fine.

I have fermented in a separate vessel before and did not see a significant difference, but maybe I need to experiment more with that. I’ve always wondered if the yeast cake would negatively impact the beer — I ruled yeast in suspension out given it should fall to the bottom with the keg being in the fridge.

I may invest in a new fermenter, I’d like one that is stainless and would allow me to easily transfer and ideally dry hop without exposing the beer to o2.

 

[HM-2]

Getting my beer off the yeast cake before DH has been one of my biggest positive processes changes in brewing hazies. Makes a massive difference.

 

[RyPA]

Yeah I think I’m going to switch to fermenting in a fermenter. I found this one, and will pick up a triclamp dry hop add on

https://www.deltabrewingsystems.com...ingsystems.com/products/the-fermtank-8-gallon


https://www.morebeer.com/products/b...2Kgam_yI-HEIxMa6fLM40gZK-eKnOldUaAoDhEALw_wcB

 

[DonT]

Yeah I think I’m going to switch to fermenting in a fermenter. I found this one, and will pick up a triclamp dry hop add on

https://www.deltabrewingsystems.com...ingsystems.com/products/the-fermtank-8-gallon


https://www.morebeer.com/products/b...2Kgam_yI-HEIxMa6fLM40gZK-eKnOldUaAoDhEALw_wcB

Just a note here... That Ferm Tank is only rated to 2.5psi, so you can't pressure ferment. I may just be pointing out the obvious here, so just ignore me...

 

[RyPA]

Just a note here... That Ferm Tank is only rated to 2.5psi, so you can't pressure ferment. I may just be pointing out the obvious here, so just ignore me...

I didn’t get into that level of the specs but thanks for pointing it out. I’ve only pressure fermented once, but that’s not to say I won’t want to in the future. It would at least support a few psi for sealed transfers.

 

[couchsending]

There’s no real benefit to pressure fermenting… most yeasts don’t like it anyways

 

[HM-2]

There’s no real benefit to pressure fermenting… most yeasts don’t like it anyways

There are two primary use cases I see for pressure fermenting:

1) Fermenting lagers at ambient temperatures in the absence of any kind of cooler/chiller availability.

2) For natural carbonation in the primary in the case of non-expressive yeasts where the suppression of ester production doesn't matter.

There's a few more use cases for having a fermenter that can hold a bit of pressure related to NEIPAs; I like a couple of PSI during dry hop as an additional protection against oxidation, and it does help with closed transfers.


Honestly, the only time I ever actually ferment under pressure these days is in brewing lagers.

 

[AlexKay]

I always let the main fermentation run at normal (atmospheric) pressure, but as it’s finishing up, the spunding valve goes on.

You usually don’t know how much trace O2 there is in your CO2 cylinder—there may be a specced maximum value, but generally not an actual analysis. Because force carbonation uses a lot of gas (more than dispensing), there’s at least a theoretical risk of significant oxygen introduction. (Old post.)

Plus, spunding gets you grain-to-glass a few days earlier.

 

[HM-2]

I always let the main fermentation run at normal (atmospheric) pressure, but as it’s finishing up, the spunding valve goes on.

This is exactly my process for like 90% of beers. A few PSI both acts as a safety blanket and gets you a decent head start on CO2 necessary for a closed transfer (I haven't done an open transfer in like...3 years)

 

[RyPA]

This is exactly my process for like 90% of beers. A few PSI both acts as a safety blanket and gets you a decent head start on CO2 necessary for a closed transfer (I haven't done an open transfer in like...3 years)

Same, the few times I've pressure fermented it was to simulate colder fermentation temps and to get a head start on carbing.

How is your BRU-1 Hazy? As this thread title suggests I am trying to find something different (recipe or process) to brew and have never used BRU-1.

My thoughts/take-aways so far:
1. Switch to a fermenter to get the finished beer off of the yeast cake. For the past few years I've fermented + served from the same keg.
2. I always use dry yeast (Voss Kveik, Verdant IPA, US-04/US-05), any significant advantages to trying a liquid strain?
3. I have always questioned if I am adding the appropriate amount of hops at the WP and DH stages, how do you guys figure out the size of additions? I use BrewersFriend and it shows no IBU values for cold additions, but I think cold side hops still bring some IBU's to the table. I rarely add hops on the hot side - maybe I need to begin adding a few IBUs here. I only brew 5-5.5 gallon batches.
4. Reduce citra and galaxy additions as they overpower everything else.

 

[HM-2]

How is your BRU-1 Hazy? As this thread title suggests I am trying to find something different (recipe or process) to brew and have never used BRU-1.

It's great, with some caveats I'll come onto a bit later in this post. I very recently posted the framework recipe I used for it, which can be found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/drenched-in-hop-single-hop-hazy-ipa-framework.732113/

It's the culmination of my attempts to design a framework Hazy IPA for testing single hops. I think it would be reasonably easy to adapt for 2 or 3 hop beers but giving the ultimate opportunity for a specific varietal to express itself was kind of the point


In respect of BRU-1 specifically, it's (as used in this beer) pretty great as a single hop experiment. The recipe as written above had just shy of a pound of Cryo BRU-1 in it. Personally I think it's better as a secondary hop because even in 20% AA Cryo form it's not super punchy like a Citra or Galaxy, or even a Strata.

BRU-1 is surprisingly complex with lots of ripe pineapple, sweet citrus and loads of what I'd best describe as baking spices, cinnamon and vanilla in particular. In the single hop hazy it pushes a sort of Brazilian steakhouse style spit roasted pineapple that's not aggressively punch you in the face but is nonetheless extremely delicious.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Yeah I think I’m going to switch to fermenting in a fermenter. I found this one, and will pick up a triclamp dry hop add on

https://www.deltabrewingsystems.com...ingsystems.com/products/the-fermtank-8-gallon


https://www.morebeer.com/products/b...2Kgam_yI-HEIxMa6fLM40gZK-eKnOldUaAoDhEALw_wcB

Do you have fermentation temperature concerns? If so have you thought of a solution? Curious minds would like to know...

 

[RyPA]

Do you have fermentation temperature concerns? If so have you thought of a solution? Curious minds would like to know...

Yes and no. I live in NJ so I select my yeast based on the time of year. Summer time I have been using Voss Kveik, fall/winter/spring I usually use Verdant, or whatever likes being in the mid/high 60's or room temp. I'd like to have full temperature control, but not sure the bang for the buck is worth it. If this was guaranteed to bring my NEIPA's from a 7 to 10, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[KyBeer]

Hope this thread is still active!
I keep a NEIPA or DIPA on tap all the time. Right now I have a Zombie Dust clone tht I switched out the Citra hops with Galaxy hops. Still very hoppy and drinkable. I also harvest yeast from different beers like HeadyTopper Conan yeast I think. I pick a beer I realy like and save the bottom of the can or bottle and go for it. I use one of two grain bills and hop schedules so I can taste the difference.
Thiolized yeast are my next targets.
Do most homebrewers use new yeast every time or harvest for severl brews?

 

[RyPA]

Hope this thread is still active!
I keep a NEIPA or DIPA on tap all the time. Right now I have a Zombie Dust clone tht I switched out the Citra hops with Galaxy hops. Still very hoppy and drinkable. I also harvest yeast from different beers like HeadyTopper Conan yeast I think. I pick a beer I realy like and save the bottom of the can or bottle and go for it. I use one of two grain bills and hop schedules so I can taste the difference.
Thiolized yeast are my next targets.
Do most homebrewers use new yeast every time or harvest for severl brews?

I brewed a batch on Sunday and just started soft crashing (also a new process for me) in preparation to dry hop. I switched to never used hops (BRU-1, Strata) in addition to Citra. Looking forward to something new.

 

[RyPA]

Bringing this thread back from the dead

For Christmas I got an All Rounder equipped with a Hop Bong and I am going to break it in very soon with a NEIPA batch. I am looking for some advice on the recipe as I am still in the same position with my recipes tasting very similar to each other.

From a process perspective, what I discovered in my most recent brewday is my mash temp was not what I was expecting, I was taking the temp read out on the Foundry at face value. This time around I took measurements with a thermometer until it was consistent at my expected mash temp -- to do this the Foundry has to be set at +2F of desired temp and at 60% power, running @ 240V. Though, I was still hitting expected gravity for the most part, pre and post fermentation, so I am not sure that this affected me.

I have 2 packs of yeast on hand, Verdant IPA & Voss Kveik, but I am wondering if it would be a game changer to switch to a different, maybe a liquid yeast. I have never used liquid yeast so maybe this will give me noteworthy improvement? I don't have a stir plate, so I'd need to maybe just get a can of starter and mix them together by hand.

Hops on hand in oz.

Amarillo	BRU-1	Centennial	Citra	Columbus LupoMax	EKG	El Dorado	Galaxy	Magnum	Mosaic	Nelson Sauvin	Simcoe	Strata	Vic Secret
10.00	2.75	1.25	16.00	1.75	0.50	5.00	8.50	1.20	25.00	16.00	3.50	4.60	6.00

Malt on hand in lbs.

2-row	Golden Promise	White Wheat	Rolled Oats	Carafoam
24	25	10	0.5	0.575

I am looking to do a 6 gallon batch, 6.5% or so ABV

 

[HM-2]

For grain bill, I'd go 70% 2-row, 15% white wheat, 10% oats and 5% CaraFoam. Mashed at or near 70°C. Shoot for an FG around 1.018 and around 70% attenuation, so a roughly 1.068 OG.

For hops, from what you've noted there and going for something "not the same" I would probably go with Strata, Mosaic and Vic Secret in 3:2:2 ratio. Token 15 IBU of Centennial or Columbus at the start of the boil, then nothing else until a 5oz minimum whirlpool at 75°C. DH maybe 6-7oz minimum and 10 if you really feel like it.

Ferment with Verdant on the warmer end of the spectrum. You honestly won't get any real benefit from liquid yeast, honestly I think they're 3x the cost and 10x the effort for an overall less consistent outcome.

 

[RyPA]

For grain bill, I'd go 70% 2-row, 15% white wheat, 10% oats and 5% CaraFoam. Mashed at or near 70°C. Shoot for an FG around 1.018 and around 70% attenuation, so a roughly 1.068 OG.

For hops, from what you've noted there and going for something "not the same" I would probably go with Strata, Mosaic and Vic Secret in 3:2:2 ratio. Token 15 IBU of Centennial or Columbus at the start of the boil, then nothing else until a 5oz minimum whirlpool at 75°C. DH maybe 6-7oz minimum and 10 if you really feel like it.

Ferment with Verdant on the warmer end of the spectrum. You honestly won't get any real benefit from liquid yeast, honestly I think they're 3x the cost and 10x the effort for an overall less consistent outcome.

Thanks for the response.

Why no Golden Promise? I do prefer a slighly sweeter over dry beer, wouldn't GP support that?

While I am going for something 'not the same', I still want it to have some juicy characteristics, and not just some random mix of hops. Ideally orange, peach, grapefruit, a bit on the sweet side, no bitterness, or just enough to make it taste like beer. I also have a # of lactose I can add to the recipe.

Regarding yeast, that is good to hear as I prefer not to get involved with liquid. I'd much rather spend $5 on a pack of dry for each batch.

 

[HM-2]

Thanks for the response.

Why no Golden Promise? I do prefer a slighly sweeter over dry beer, wouldn't GP support that?

While I am going for something 'not the same', I still want it to have some juicy characteristics, and not just some random mix of hops. Ideally orange, peach, grapefruit, a bit on the sweet side, no bitterness, or just enough to make it taste like beer. I also have a # of lactose I can add to the recipe.

Regarding yeast, that is good to hear as I prefer not to get involved with liquid. I'd much rather spend $5 on a pack of dry for each batch.

By all means split the 2-row 50/50 with GP but I suspect the difference will be pretty imperceptible. With the hops and adjuncts you'd have to be a far better taster than I to tell the difference. These days I mostly use pilsner malt as the base in my hazies- mostly because I bought up a very large amount of floor malted Czech Pilsen malt from a local maltsters at a very cheap price. I've used pale ale, pilsner, MO and GP plus mixtures of 2 or 3 of the above without really noticing much difference.

Assuming "typical" crops and decent storage, that hop combo should give you something familiar but perceptibly different. Strata is pretty passion fruit forward which IMO makes it quite interesting as the main hop in a NEIPA. Mosaic brings that overripe mango and pineapple with a bit of weedy funk, and Vic pushes more pineapple and pine/dank.

If you wanted to lean more into.thr citrus then I'd swap the Mosaic with either Amarillo (sweet orange and tangerine) or even centennial (pink grapefruit). I don't use Cent much in my hazies but it regularly appears in my westies and mountain IPAs as an aroma hop and can throw some wonderful citrus peel vibes.

 

[RyPA]

@HM-2 What do you have planned for your Treehouse style IPA?

Here's the recipe, OG and FG are little on the lower side. Debating swapping Vic Secret for El Dorado. Not sure how I feel about Strata being all over the place, but maybe that will provide some balance to the fruity character.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1531155/amarillo-strata-vic-secret-neipa

 

[HM-2]

@HM-2 What do you have planned for your Treehouse style IPA?

Here's the recipe, OG and FG are little on the lower side. Debating swapping Vic Secret for El Dorado. Not sure how I feel about Strata being all over the place, but maybe that will provide some balance to the fruity character.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1531155/amarillo-strata-vic-secret-neipa

View attachment 865454

My treehouse style one is Citra LupoMAX, Strata and Luminosa. 8% ABV, modelled on a recipe they gave on their YouTube channel.

82% pilsner, 10% torrefied oats, 5% wheat and 3% CaraHell.

This is what the hopping regime looks like:

Your recipe looks very solid and should produce a solid hazy. The only two tweaks I would personally make would be to:

1) Mash hotter to bring the attenuation down and FG up- as I think I mentioned before I target 1.016-1.018 in 6%, 1.018-1.020 in 7% and 1.020+ in 8%+ hazies as I find you get more expressive fruit- especially tropical and stone- in a sweeter beer. You could also bump FG with lactose or maltodextrin but the former will change the character slightly and the latter isn't quite as good as arriving at the higher FG naturally in terms of flavour (though IME it nails the mouth feel component).

2) I would also be inclined to add either a small FWH or bittering charge for about 10 IBU. You'll still be getting most of your IBUs from the whirlpool but I find this just gives a touch more structure and backbone without losing any of the juiciness.

I know some would probably suggest upping the oats and lowering the wheat quantities to near parity or slightly more oats but for my personal taste I actually prefer a higher proportion of wheat.

Possibly not one for this beer, but I would also highly recommend trying Golden Naked Oats at proportions up to about 10% in a hazy. They do double duty of adding a load of un-fermentable sugars and proteins that give fantastic mouth feel and a "breakfast cereal bar" sweetness without significantly affecting SRM/EBC. They're in 90% of my hazy recipes, though currently I'm trying out flaked torrefied oats with husk as a "middle ground" between GN (basically light crystal oats) and traditional flaked oats (which are gummy as f*ck in the mash). Will report back on Monday

 

[hungupdown]

1) Mash hotter to bring the attenuation down and FG up- as I think I mentioned before I target 1.016-1.018 in 6%, 1.018-1.020 in 7% and 1.020+ in 8%+ hazies.....

The final gravity (FG) for a New England IPA (NEIPA) should be between 1.008 and 1.016, according to the Brewer's Association's guidelines. The starting gravity (OG) should be in the 1.060 to 1.070 range.
Perceived Malt Aroma & Flavor: Low to low-medium malt aroma and flavor may be present.

Not sure what you're present FG is, but I'd be trying the opposite, and mashing cooler, to get more fermentable sugars, rather than loads of dextrins.
The temperature to target, largely depends on your system. But I'd be trying 145 - 150F, rather than exceeding you're present 154F.

After changing my (electric) AIO, I initially, kept getting consistently very full bodied, and very similar tasting, beers.
The new system, targeted correct mash temperature, near top of malt pipe. So acheiving recommended temperature (near top), meant the base temperature was often way to hot, for beta-amylase enzymes to survive.
Since reducing 'set' mash temperature, for majority of my brews, I've been enjoying the results, and the hops, much more.


Another thing, that could be worth trying, if you prefer sweeter tasting IPA, is to include sugar @ 5% - 10%. This can reduce the FG, hopefully to within style guidelines, even where there's plenty of unfermentable sugars / dextrins.

 

[HM-2]

The final gravity (FG) for a New England IPA (NEIPA) should be between 1.008 and 1.016, according to the Brewer's Association's guidelines.

Respectfully, those guidelines are arse (as are the BJCP guidelines). The vast majority of highly regarded modern commercial NEIPAs have FGs well above 1.015, and it's far from uncommon to see FGs at or near 1.030 for big (8+%) beers.

Another thing, that could be worth trying, if you prefer sweeter tasting IPA, is to include sugar @ 5% - 10%.

Eh? That's how you make a dryer beer, not a sweeter one

-Edit 2-

I think you also misread the BA guidelines, confusing the "American IPA" for "Hazy or Juicy IPA". Whilst they're still hilarious at the lower end, the actual FG spectrum they give is 1.008-1.020.

 

[DevilsCups]

Yeah to be honest, I personally don't like to see anything below 1.014 FG for my NE pales, and I prefer around 1.018 for IPA's.

 

[RyPA]

Brewday with my most recent NEIPA went well. I hit my numbers and the beer looks awesome.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1531155/amarillo-strata-vic-secret-neipa

I took a taste immediately before dry hopping and noticed no off flavors, 5 days later/post dry hop, I am getting what I believe is hop burn. For the dry hop charge I crushed up the hops the best I could to get it into a powder, in hopes this would improve utilization. I added the hops after I soft crashed to 60F and let the hops sit for 2 days at 60, I then dropped the temp to 36 for the cold crash and its been there for 2 days.

Should I let this sit in the fermenter at 36F, or should I transfer and let it rest in the keg at 36F?

 

[HM-2]

Get it off the green matter and into a keg under carbonation pressure ASAP. At these DH rates you will get hop burn, it's unavoidable. A week in keg at 12psi and it'll be carbed and the astringency cleared.

Hazies tend to come into their prime about 10 days from packaging. Many commercial breweries wait 3 or more weeks from canning to sale to the public.

 

[day_trippr]

Zero IBUs?