The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

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some of the things that these two guys are advocating are good regardless of your methods being low oxygen or not. Spunding is good, better ph management is good, fermentation control is good know matter the style of beer (with a couple obvious exceptions). The thing is, all the science and groundwork has already been laid out for this type of brewing. Its all there, albeit sometimes in German haha but this is an all encompassing technique. Pre boiling your water then saturating it with copper and then coupling it with the massive surface area most homebrew mash tuns employ will prevents you from brewing according to the science of this method. Not wanting it to be so because copper is cheap and plentiful and igloo coolers are easy to find doesn't change science. Its true whether you want it to be or not.


I will be brewing a dryish British Best Bitter tomorrow with copious amounts of Styrian Bobek hops and East Kent Goldings which will benefit greatly from the techniques the LODO guys advocate. Mmmm so crisp and fresh. Nom nom nom :D
 
For the record, we advocate that people DON’T use copper without a chelating agent. You are conflating our not chastising people for doing so with us promoting it. We don’t want to turn people off the methods for missing a single piece.

I don’t think you have a good grasp on the Fenton reaction.

If you would like to discuss coppers contribution to brewing and fermentation we can if it would help you. I'm all for simplifying things to make them more digestible. Simply saying, lose the copper is easier than regurgitating the science behind it.

I do not like chastising people, but claiming to be an advocate (this is the OFFICIAL LODO thread right..) while not telling people to stop with brewing practices that are deleterious to the low oxygen process isn't helping anyone.
 
If you would like to discuss coppers contribution to brewing and fermentation we can if it would help you. I'm all for simplifying things to make them more digestible. Simply saying, lose the copper is easier than regurgitating the science behind it.

I do not like chastising people, but claiming to be an advocate (this is the OFFICIAL LODO thread right..) while not telling people to stop with brewing practices that are deleterious to the low oxygen process isn't helping anyone.

My point was that I don’t need you to explain it to me but if you need a better understanding we have tons of references to help you out.
 
One thing I hope to implore all brewers looking to try low oxygen brewing is that low oxygen brewing is a different method of brewing, not a superior one. It is a way to get certain flavors into the finished product. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Unfortunately other brewers that enjoy this flavor and style are prone to hyperbole and say things like "the best malt flavor only comes from low oxygen brewing" or things to that affect. I personally love the flavor, but there are also several amazing brewers and beer drinkers that don't. But you are never going to know unless you actually follow the methods as outlined by actual authorities on brewing and not bastardized methods that fly in the face of scientific fact.
 
My point was that I don’t need you to explain it to me but if you need a better understanding we have tons of references to help you out.

I believe we are reading from the same resources, which confuses me even more as to how you can tell so many brewers starting out that their deleterious practices are ok or that changing just one at a time will achieve what the authors of said resources set out to accomplish.
 
I believe we are reading from the same resources, which confuses me even more as to how you can tell so many brewers starting out that their deleterious practices are ok or that changing just one at a time will achieve what the authors of said resources set out to accomplish.

You’re confused. We state very clearly that a step-wise approach produces step-wise results. Nowhere do we state that skipping steps or implementing piece-meal produces the best results. We also don’t deter people from trying it. That’s because we are trying to be inclusive.

People are okay with that, as well as our presentation of it, because they understand what it takes to do the process to a T and know that we aren’t leading them astray but rather helping them get their foot in the door.

You are the only one that seems to mind.
 
You’re confused. We state very clearly that a step-wise approach produces step-wise results. Nowhere do we state that skipping steps or implementing piece-meal produces the best results. We also don’t deter people from trying it. That’s because we are trying to inclusive.

People are okay with that, as well as our presentation of it, because we are not trying to exclude people.

No. oxidize the delicate polyphenols, and its gone. Your "inclusivity" as you call it is coming at the cost of actually executing and benefitting from the science behind low oxygen brewing.
 
Subbing to this.

I did email the admins the other day and ask for a LODO sub forum. Yooper emailed me back and said she would bring it up to the other admins and try to get it implemented.

I was against it. I hope you guys know I'm on your side WRT this topic, but we won't fracture the forum structure further until we think it's really warranted. If the topic takes off, then maybe a subforum is warranted.
Right now, it's just another fringe brewing topic.

Until that time, keep on building the LODO knowledge base. I think it's very valuable. If there are any issues here, just report as usual.
 
No. oxidize the delicate polyphenols, and its gone. Your "inclusivity" as you call it is coming at the cost of actually executing and benefitting from the science behind low oxygen brewing.

You are missing what he is saying. You have blinders on. Scotty is saying the same thing you are. To brew low oxygen, you need to follow the steps very closely. Any deviation will result in oxygen ingress which at that point won't be low oxygen.

HOWEVER, what you are missing is Scotty is telling people that they should try all the low oxygen processes they can with what they have now to get used to the different procedures. You are reading this as him telling people they can skip steps and still brew low oxygen. That is absolutely incorrect. Some people can't afford to buy new things right away so they need to improvise. If someone has a copper chiller and can't get their hands on BTB, why can't they use it and still brew with the rest of the low oxygen procedures? They know the copper is precluding them from brewing actual low oxygen beer but at least they can get good practice with the other steps. It also doesn't mean that the copper will make bad beer. In most cases, brewing with low oxygen procedures except for using copper will probably increase the quality of that persons beer.

Let's end this argument and talk about actually brewing beer. These are the types of back and forth arguments that can deter people from asking questions.

For people looking to get into low oxygen brewing...there are specific procedures you most follow to achieve low oxygen beer. Any step skipped will result in oxygen getting into your beer. At that point you are no longer brewing low oxygen beer. This however doesn't mean you will be brewing bad beer.
 
I was against it. I hope you guys know I'm on your side WRT this topic, but we won't fracture the forum structure further until we think it's really warranted. If the topic takes off, then maybe a subforum is warranted.
Right now, it's just another fringe brewing topic.

Until that time, keep on building the LODO knowledge base. I think it's very valuable. If there are any issues here, just report as usual.

I do think having a subforum will bring more people into it. I think people see one thread and skip over it. Having questions asked in one thread gets confusing and hard to find answers. Having a subforum will also weed out the negativity of people saying LODO is hogwash. But I understand there needs to be more discussions on the topic to warrant a subforum. Hopefully that will happen with more information getting out to people on HBT.
 
Ironically the LODOers are not being attacked by non-believers in this thread but are instead feasting on their own.

But there is good news as one frequent poster on this thread has found his or her way into my ignore list.
 
This thread is a perfect example of how the topic of 'low oxygen brewing' is reacted to by some homebrewers, and a great example of why an actual forum would benefit this brewing process. It's purely an "end result" driven process that can be attacked from many different angles. The more heads thinking critically about the process the better fleshed out it can become. Unfortunately, some folks are more concerned with badgering others regarding their current process changes to, seemingly, point out their faults/failure/incompetency/inaccuracy/etc than to actually contribute to the conversation. Remember, this is "low oxygen brewing" - it is NOT "no oxygen brewing". Any lack of "perfectionism" is highly acceptable from my standpoint.

....oh, and noobie12345, you are not here to help with the constructive conversation - that's perfectly clear ;)
 
Let's see if we can get back on track. I contributed to about 3 pages worth of useless bickering. Sorry folks.

Maybe we should discuss the update post we put out a little while back:

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-review/

There are some key things that are now pretty clear:

1.) Originally the GBF group suggested 100 ppm as a baseline Meta dose because they assumed (correctly) that many people would not be equipped right off the bat to restrict DO intrusion. Now we are at a point where if someone knows they are going to implement the Low Oxygen methods, they pretty much immediately implement all the mechanical mods. If they don't we are advocating they do. That means on most people's first Low Oxygen brewday they have checked all their connections, are stirring and transferring gently, have a mash cap, are underletting, doing no sparge, etc.

As such, we are recommending 20-30 ppm as a starting Meta dose. Some people are now in the 10-15 ppm range and looking to reduce that. That's a pretty incredible leap forward. Incorporating a live Sauergut culture and utilizing its redox potential is driving people down to the 5-10 ppm range. That's a big leap forward and a major revision to the original process.

2.) Brewtan B has become a staple even for those not using copper. As discussed a few times here (and born out of many people's experiences with copper and Brewtan B), copper may not be as big a bogeyman as was originally thought, although we have been (and will continue to) advocate the use of Brewtan B with systems still using copper.

3.) Color reduction has shown itself to be more of an issue than originally thought. We originally used a 20% reduction from Morey predictions as a baseline and quickly found that for very tight systems it could go up to a 35% reduction. This is an area where you'll have to test and document for your system but expect somewhere between 20-35% reduction from Morey predictions. This will require changes to tried and true recipes.

4.) You have to stir your mash! This was one of the original bogeymen. People were afraid to stir the mash and getting poor efficiency. It's okay to stir (a damn requirement actually!) to get a good grain/water mix.
 
I have gone about as far as pre-boiling and am pretty happy with the results. It's hard for me to comment on the success because I changed that and so many things in my system and used a new recipe.

I read all the materials as best I could from the LOB website, and then went looking for other stuff and found some documents from the Institute of Brewers and Distillers talking about the polyphenols and their reactions with oxygen. It aligns very well with that is talked about in the GBF paper, however it talks about the compounds denaturing over time due to the heat. The higher the mash temp, the faster the compounds denature, and as i get it the faster the oxidation reactions stop happening.

The only other thing that I have questions about the rate at which oxygen dissolves into water from the surface. I know the GBF paper says it happens within minutes, but I have a friend who works for the USGS as a hydrologist measuring rivers, part of that being checking oxygen levels in them (maybe, i'm not sure what all they monitor, but i know they have the equipment to check it.). He says they keep a bucket of water with pure oxygen bubbling through it for calibrating their o2 meters. He says they they periodicly empty the bucket and refill it and let it sit with the o2 bubbling through it to re saturate it with oxygen. He says that it takes overnight for it to be fully saturated. So I wonder how long it takes for oxygen to dissolve back into a mash.

All of that could be since i dont have any actual data to put up for the bucket of water.

All in all, I'm pleased with my last beer. But I think pre-boiling is as far as I'm going to go, at least right now. With the information at hand, pre-boiling seems like a simple step to take that wont do anything but possibly aid in quality. But seeing as how I have pretty delicate water profiles in terms of minerals, and I can't bring myself to add any o2 scrubbers. But I definetly think there is somthing to the process, so lowerDo it is.
 
Its really interesting as a Brit we have always been encouraged to pre boil our water. Its especially important for those brewers that live in areas with high levels of salts as its can precipitate these out. I can't understand why its not simply a standard brewing procedure. The fact that it practically reduces dissolved oxygen to zero is a boon in itself. Add an almost negligible amount of Sodium metabisulphite to scavenge anything that's remaining and its all good. At present I am using levels as low as 25ppm of SMB for the mash and 10ppm for the sparge.
 
I have gone about as far as pre-boiling and am pretty happy with the results. It's hard for me to comment on the success because I changed that and so many things in my system and used a new recipe.

I read all the materials as best I could from the LOB website, and then went looking for other stuff and found some documents from the Institute of Brewers and Distillers talking about the polyphenols and their reactions with oxygen. It aligns very well with that is talked about in the GBF paper, however it talks about the compounds denaturing over time due to the heat. The higher the mash temp, the faster the compounds denature, and as i get it the faster the oxidation reactions stop happening.

The only other thing that I have questions about the rate at which oxygen dissolves into water from the surface. I know the GBF paper says it happens within minutes, but I have a friend who works for the USGS as a hydrologist measuring rivers, part of that being checking oxygen levels in them (maybe, i'm not sure what all they monitor, but i know they have the equipment to check it.). He says they keep a bucket of water with pure oxygen bubbling through it for calibrating their o2 meters. He says they they periodicly empty the bucket and refill it and let it sit with the o2 bubbling through it to re saturate it with oxygen. He says that it takes overnight for it to be fully saturated. So I wonder how long it takes for oxygen to dissolve back into a mash.

All of that could be since i dont have any actual data to put up for the bucket of water.

All in all, I'm pleased with my last beer. But I think pre-boiling is as far as I'm going to go, at least right now. With the information at hand, pre-boiling seems like a simple step to take that wont do anything but possibly aid in quality. But seeing as how I have pretty delicate water profiles in terms of minerals, and I can't bring myself to add any o2 scrubbers. But I definetly think there is somthing to the process, so lowerDo it is.

You should be using metabisulfite in addition to preboiling. You are already doing the heavy lifting (preboiling) and 20-30 ppm of metabisulfite will only add trace amounts of minerals. Add a mash cap and you’d be in great shape.

Neither preboiling or metabisulfite alone provide enough margin to staying below 1 ppm on the hot side. Using them in tandem is the key you are already doing the part that many people balk at (preboiling). Keep us posted on your results.
 
Ive been slowly working my way through the literature posted by the LODO Team. I havent been able to track down any of the textbooks, but I've been reading up on the articles (Narziss, Bamforth, and others).

I still have much to learn so take what I say with a HUGE grain of salt: for me, the jury is still out on hotside aeration BUT the cold side of the process in MONUMENTALLY IMPORTANT AND DIFFICULT. Any interaction between your beer and the air post fermentation is detrimental to your beer and can take weeks off of its ideal lifespan. Oxidation on the cold side is one thing conclusively proven by food scientists via lab experiments, brewhouse practice, and tasting panels. So purge your vessels as much as possible, spund or carbonate with live active yeast, and get those beers cold asap to reduce your beer's chance of deteriorating too quickly.

On the hot side, 1 study that compared o2 rich and o2 poor worts for phenolic fatty acids (a precursor to enzymatic oxidation) found that, yes, less o2 in the wort did increase its quality, but the difference was not a stark as one might imagine.

6vAQ6Y2.jpg

(Oxidative degeneration of lipids during mashing. Mariken, et al.)

The difference between o2 rich and o2 poor worts? One was milled in the presence of pure o2, and mashed with continuous exposure to pure o2.

The o2 poor sample was crushed in the presence of pure argon, and mashed with twice dearated water under pure argon pressure without any o2 exposure. In otherwords, almost impossible standards for a homebrewer, and difficult even for a brewery. *Do bear in mind, of course, this is only one example from one study*

The good news is that much of LODO is just a return to good brewing practice and we should all try to comply (hot break skim, separating trub, light rolling boil). But I am not yet convinced of the "less than 1ppm of DO".

I still have much learning to do still, though.
 
I have also been working my way into low oxygen. I am almost all stainless steel now, I still use silicon tubing. I first came across the concept several months ago during some down time on an Uncle Sam funded "vacation". I'll admit, at first I was skeptical (to say it politely). However I love experimenting so I gave it a shot and my beer has never been better. It only took a minimal investment (meta is cheap and so are mash caps if you lol hard enough, I use SS cake pans). The two biggest "leaps" for me were preboiling and spunding. All of my beers have been improved. I brew mostly hoppy styles. However I recently brewed a style I greatly dislike as a request from my wife, a stout. I was actually able to drink a full glass! A record for me!
 
Ive been slowly working my way through the literature posted by the LODO Team. I havent been able to track down any of the textbooks, but I've been reading up on the articles (Narziss, Bamforth, and others).

I still have much to learn so take what I say with a HUGE grain of salt: for me, the jury is still out on hotside aeration BUT the cold side of the process in MONUMENTALLY IMPORTANT AND DIFFICULT. Any interaction between your beer and the air post fermentation is detrimental to your beer and can take weeks off of its ideal lifespan. Oxidation on the cold side is one thing conclusively proven by food scientists via lab experiments, brewhouse practice, and tasting panels. So purge your vessels as much as possible, spund or carbonate with live active yeast, and get those beers cold asap to reduce your beer's chance of deteriorating too quickly.

On the hot side, 1 study that compared o2 rich and o2 poor worts for phenolic fatty acids (a precursor to enzymatic oxidation) found that, yes, less o2 in the wort did increase its quality, but the difference was not a stark as one might imagine.

6vAQ6Y2.jpg

(Oxidative degeneration of lipids during mashing. Mariken, et al.)

The difference between o2 rich and o2 poor worts? One was milled in the presence of pure o2, and mashed with continuous exposure to pure o2.

The o2 poor sample was crushed in the presence of pure argon, and mashed with twice dearated water under pure argon pressure without any o2 exposure. In otherwords, almost impossible standards for a homebrewer, and difficult even for a brewery. *Do bear in mind, of course, this is only one example from one study*

The good news is that much of LODO is just a return to good brewing practice and we should all try to comply (hot break skim, separating trub, light rolling boil). But I am not yet convinced of the "less than 1ppm of DO".

I still have much learning to do still, though.

Doubt is a fundamental mechanism of human reason. It’s healthy and prompts further investigation and research. Nothing wrong with that at all.
 
As you are all probably aware, I was a pretty outspoken opponent of the 'tone' of the original LODO discussion.

That being said, I've implemented and kept some of the processes because they improved the final product. I now have a way to ferment under pressure and spund, and use CO2 generated by fermentation to 'purge' the receiving keg.

I'm willing to give it another shot. The one thing I'm having a bit of trouble finding is Sodium Metabisulfite dosing. What is the measurement in grams/gallon for a given PPM of metabisulfite? This might seem like an elementary thing but I'll be damned if I can find it in a simple format.

ferment.jpg
 
I'm willing to give it another shot. The one thing I'm having a bit of trouble finding is Sodium Metabisulfite dosing. What is the measurement in grams/gallon for a given PPM of metabisulfite? This might seem like an elementary thing but I'll be damned if I can find it in a simple format.

:tank:
PPM is the same as mg/liter. So say you wanted to try adding 25ppm for 10 gallons of strike water.

Then, 10 gallons = 37.84 liters.

(25mg/L x 37.84L) / 1000 = .946 grams

Or

25mg = .025g
.025g x 37.84L = .946 grams

I'm pretty sure that's right.
 
As you are all probably aware, I was a pretty outspoken opponent of the 'tone' of the original LODO discussion.

That being said, I've implemented and kept some of the processes because they improved the final product. I now have a way to ferment under pressure and spund, and use CO2 generated by fermentation to 'purge' the receiving keg.

I'm willing to give it another shot. The one thing I'm having a bit of trouble finding is Sodium Metabisulfite dosing. What is the measurement in grams/gallon for a given PPM of metabisulfite? This might seem like an elementary thing but I'll be damned if I can find it in a simple format.

How do you find moving that in and out of the fridge? It seems like it could be a bit odd.

I hope the guys don't mind me linking their site. This spreadsheet is great. Gives you how much NaMeta you should use (in grams) based on the dosage rate you want (in mg/L) but more importantly it tells you how much Na and SO4 you are adding.

http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/The-Spreadsheet-v.6.2-Public.xlsx
 
As you are all probably aware, I was a pretty outspoken opponent of the 'tone' of the original LODO discussion.

That being said, I've implemented and kept some of the processes because they improved the final product. I now have a way to ferment under pressure and spund, and use CO2 generated by fermentation to 'purge' the receiving keg.

I'm willing to give it another shot. The one thing I'm having a bit of trouble finding is Sodium Metabisulfite dosing. What is the measurement in grams/gallon for a given PPM of metabisulfite? This might seem like an elementary thing but I'll be damned if I can find it in a simple format.

For 20-30 ppm you’ll want 0.075-0.11 g/gal. We have that built into our spreadsheet (download from the brewing references page at our site.)
 
How do you find moving that in and out of the fridge? It seems like it could be a bit odd.

I hope the guys don't mind me linking their site. This spreadsheet is great. Gives you how much NaMeta you should use (in grams) based on the dosage rate you want (in mg/L) but more importantly it tells you how much Na and SO4 you are adding.

http://www.********************/uncategorized/low-oxygen-quick-reference-spreadsheet/

No problem! I would fix the link to point to the full brewing spreadsheet though (The Spreadsheet 6.xx)
 
Too much awesome ya? lol :mug:



Done

I think the full sheet is more useful because it accounts for everything and has the water chemistry stuff built right into the recipe portion.
 
Ok, found the spreadsheet. Thanks.

As for moving it, the only time the conical gets moved is after filling it with wort, pitching yeast and hitting it with 02. It then goes into the chamber, and doesn't move again until empty. To 'push' into the keg I have another jumper line that comes from the 'liquid' fitting on the conical and goes to the 'liquid' connection on the keg. The keg gets moved to the floor. I then give the conical a little 'push' with co2, then jumper the gas sides together, and the siphon action does the rest.
 
Thanks guys, for opening this thread. I felt like I needed a place to upload my simple LODO related questions without having to make a new thread on the lowoxygenbrewing forum.

Anywahs, I was considering giving myself an x-mas gift this year and I wanted some opinions on what would get me the most lodo bang for my lodo buck.

I currently dont own a grain mill, and Im pretty sure my lhbs gets grain sent to them pre-milled. So I may have always been lamed right of the gate for fresh grain flavor.

I also don't have a stir plate or flask for liquid yeasts or FFTs. I enjoy using dry yeasts for their simplicity and will likely continue on that path. However, FFTs are becoming increasingly important if I want to return to bottles for spunding (only co2 I can get is "industry grade"). Bottles reportedly gain ~ 7ppb of O2 per day, and i guess im okay with that.

So what will improve my lodo more, in your opinion: grain mill or stir plate?
 
Thanks guys, for opening this thread. I felt like I needed a place to upload my simple LODO related questions without having to make a new thread on the lowoxygenbrewing forum.

Anywahs, I was considering giving myself an x-mas gift this year and I wanted some opinions on what would get me the most lodo bang for my lodo buck.

I currently dont own a grain mill, and Im pretty sure my lhbs gets grain sent to them pre-milled. So I may have always been lamed right of the gate for fresh grain flavor.

I also don't have a stir plate or flask for liquid yeasts or FFTs. I enjoy using dry yeasts for their simplicity and will likely continue on that path. However, FFTs are becoming increasingly important if I want to return to bottles for spunding (only co2 I can get is "industry grade"). Bottles reportedly gain ~ 7ppb of O2 per day, and i guess im okay with that.

So what will improve my lodo more, in your opinion: grain mill or stir plate?

The mill. You don’t need a stir plate for an FFT. It’s convenient if you already have one but not required.
 
Grain mill saves you money too by buying full sacks. So then you have money for the stir plate, which is a handy tool for sure.
 
I'd also have to say the mill. I have a stir plate but really don't use it anymore. A while back I changed to the Beerery's suggested method of starting a new strain/pitch with 4-5 packs/vials per ~6 gal lager batch and then re pitching saved yeast after that. It's so much less trouble then starters.
 
:tank:
PPM is the same as mg/liter. So say you wanted to try adding 25ppm for 10 gallons of strike water.

Then, 10 gallons = 37.84 liters.

(25mg/L x 37.84L) / 1000 = .946 grams

Or

25mg = .025g
.025g x 37.84L = .946 grams

I'm pretty sure that's right.

metric is so beautiful! ;)
 
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