The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[beernutz]

Ironically the LODOers are not being attacked by non-believers in this thread but are instead feasting on their own.

But there is good news as one frequent poster on this thread has found his or her way into my ignore list.

 

[fuzzy2133]

My “tongue in cheek” comment blew over head at the speed of sound. Lol

 

[Big Monk]

My “tongue in cheek” comment blew over head at the speed of sound. Lol

I had a good chuckle at that one.

 

[stpug]

This thread is a perfect example of how the topic of 'low oxygen brewing' is reacted to by some homebrewers, and a great example of why an actual forum would benefit this brewing process. It's purely an "end result" driven process that can be attacked from many different angles. The more heads thinking critically about the process the better fleshed out it can become. Unfortunately, some folks are more concerned with badgering others regarding their current process changes to, seemingly, point out their faults/failure/incompetency/inaccuracy/etc than to actually contribute to the conversation. Remember, this is "low oxygen brewing" - it is NOT "no oxygen brewing". Any lack of "perfectionism" is highly acceptable from my standpoint.

....oh, and noobie12345, you are not here to help with the constructive conversation - that's perfectly clear

 

[aprichman]

Has anyone done any sensory testing on these methods?

 

[Big Monk]

Let's see if we can get back on track. I contributed to about 3 pages worth of useless bickering. Sorry folks.

Maybe we should discuss the update post we put out a little while back:

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-review/

There are some key things that are now pretty clear:

1.) Originally the GBF group suggested 100 ppm as a baseline Meta dose because they assumed (correctly) that many people would not be equipped right off the bat to restrict DO intrusion. Now we are at a point where if someone knows they are going to implement the Low Oxygen methods, they pretty much immediately implement all the mechanical mods. If they don't we are advocating they do. That means on most people's first Low Oxygen brewday they have checked all their connections, are stirring and transferring gently, have a mash cap, are underletting, doing no sparge, etc.

As such, we are recommending 20-30 ppm as a starting Meta dose. Some people are now in the 10-15 ppm range and looking to reduce that. That's a pretty incredible leap forward. Incorporating a live Sauergut culture and utilizing its redox potential is driving people down to the 5-10 ppm range. That's a big leap forward and a major revision to the original process.

2.) Brewtan B has become a staple even for those not using copper. As discussed a few times here (and born out of many people's experiences with copper and Brewtan B), copper may not be as big a bogeyman as was originally thought, although we have been (and will continue to) advocate the use of Brewtan B with systems still using copper.

3.) Color reduction has shown itself to be more of an issue than originally thought. We originally used a 20% reduction from Morey predictions as a baseline and quickly found that for very tight systems it could go up to a 35% reduction. This is an area where you'll have to test and document for your system but expect somewhere between 20-35% reduction from Morey predictions. This will require changes to tried and true recipes.

4.) You have to stir your mash! This was one of the original bogeymen. People were afraid to stir the mash and getting poor efficiency. It's okay to stir (a damn requirement actually!) to get a good grain/water mix.

 

[Big Monk]

Has anyone done any sensory testing on these methods?

We've had mass individual sensory experiments going on since April 2016

 

[aprichman]

We've had mass individual sensory experiments going on since April 2016

You surely realize this is not a valid way to gather sensory data.

 

[Big Monk]

You surely realize this is not a valid way to gather sensory data.

It was a joke!

 

[eagle23]

I have gone about as far as pre-boiling and am pretty happy with the results. It's hard for me to comment on the success because I changed that and so many things in my system and used a new recipe.

I read all the materials as best I could from the LOB website, and then went looking for other stuff and found some documents from the Institute of Brewers and Distillers talking about the polyphenols and their reactions with oxygen. It aligns very well with that is talked about in the GBF paper, however it talks about the compounds denaturing over time due to the heat. The higher the mash temp, the faster the compounds denature, and as i get it the faster the oxidation reactions stop happening.

The only other thing that I have questions about the rate at which oxygen dissolves into water from the surface. I know the GBF paper says it happens within minutes, but I have a friend who works for the USGS as a hydrologist measuring rivers, part of that being checking oxygen levels in them (maybe, i'm not sure what all they monitor, but i know they have the equipment to check it.). He says they keep a bucket of water with pure oxygen bubbling through it for calibrating their o2 meters. He says they they periodicly empty the bucket and refill it and let it sit with the o2 bubbling through it to re saturate it with oxygen. He says that it takes overnight for it to be fully saturated. So I wonder how long it takes for oxygen to dissolve back into a mash.

All of that could be since i dont have any actual data to put up for the bucket of water.

All in all, I'm pleased with my last beer. But I think pre-boiling is as far as I'm going to go, at least right now. With the information at hand, pre-boiling seems like a simple step to take that wont do anything but possibly aid in quality. But seeing as how I have pretty delicate water profiles in terms of minerals, and I can't bring myself to add any o2 scrubbers. But I definetly think there is somthing to the process, so lowerDo it is.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Its really interesting as a Brit we have always been encouraged to pre boil our water. Its especially important for those brewers that live in areas with high levels of salts as its can precipitate these out. I can't understand why its not simply a standard brewing procedure. The fact that it practically reduces dissolved oxygen to zero is a boon in itself. Add an almost negligible amount of Sodium metabisulphite to scavenge anything that's remaining and its all good. At present I am using levels as low as 25ppm of SMB for the mash and 10ppm for the sparge.

 

[Big Monk]

I have gone about as far as pre-boiling and am pretty happy with the results. It's hard for me to comment on the success because I changed that and so many things in my system and used a new recipe.

I read all the materials as best I could from the LOB website, and then went looking for other stuff and found some documents from the Institute of Brewers and Distillers talking about the polyphenols and their reactions with oxygen. It aligns very well with that is talked about in the GBF paper, however it talks about the compounds denaturing over time due to the heat. The higher the mash temp, the faster the compounds denature, and as i get it the faster the oxidation reactions stop happening.

The only other thing that I have questions about the rate at which oxygen dissolves into water from the surface. I know the GBF paper says it happens within minutes, but I have a friend who works for the USGS as a hydrologist measuring rivers, part of that being checking oxygen levels in them (maybe, i'm not sure what all they monitor, but i know they have the equipment to check it.). He says they keep a bucket of water with pure oxygen bubbling through it for calibrating their o2 meters. He says they they periodicly empty the bucket and refill it and let it sit with the o2 bubbling through it to re saturate it with oxygen. He says that it takes overnight for it to be fully saturated. So I wonder how long it takes for oxygen to dissolve back into a mash.

All of that could be since i dont have any actual data to put up for the bucket of water.

All in all, I'm pleased with my last beer. But I think pre-boiling is as far as I'm going to go, at least right now. With the information at hand, pre-boiling seems like a simple step to take that wont do anything but possibly aid in quality. But seeing as how I have pretty delicate water profiles in terms of minerals, and I can't bring myself to add any o2 scrubbers. But I definetly think there is somthing to the process, so lowerDo it is.

You should be using metabisulfite in addition to preboiling. You are already doing the heavy lifting (preboiling) and 20-30 ppm of metabisulfite will only add trace amounts of minerals. Add a mash cap and you’d be in great shape.

Neither preboiling or metabisulfite alone provide enough margin to staying below 1 ppm on the hot side. Using them in tandem is the key you are already doing the part that many people balk at (preboiling). Keep us posted on your results.

 

[jwalk4]

Ive been slowly working my way through the literature posted by the LODO Team. I havent been able to track down any of the textbooks, but I've been reading up on the articles (Narziss, Bamforth, and others).

I still have much to learn so take what I say with a HUGE grain of salt: for me, the jury is still out on hotside aeration BUT the cold side of the process in MONUMENTALLY IMPORTANT AND DIFFICULT. Any interaction between your beer and the air post fermentation is detrimental to your beer and can take weeks off of its ideal lifespan. Oxidation on the cold side is one thing conclusively proven by food scientists via lab experiments, brewhouse practice, and tasting panels. So purge your vessels as much as possible, spund or carbonate with live active yeast, and get those beers cold asap to reduce your beer's chance of deteriorating too quickly.

On the hot side, 1 study that compared o2 rich and o2 poor worts for phenolic fatty acids (a precursor to enzymatic oxidation) found that, yes, less o2 in the wort did increase its quality, but the difference was not a stark as one might imagine.

(Oxidative degeneration of lipids during mashing. Mariken, et al.)

The difference between o2 rich and o2 poor worts? One was milled in the presence of pure o2, and mashed with continuous exposure to pure o2.

The o2 poor sample was crushed in the presence of pure argon, and mashed with twice dearated water under pure argon pressure without any o2 exposure. In otherwords, almost impossible standards for a homebrewer, and difficult even for a brewery. *Do bear in mind, of course, this is only one example from one study*

The good news is that much of LODO is just a return to good brewing practice and we should all try to comply (hot break skim, separating trub, light rolling boil). But I am not yet convinced of the "less than 1ppm of DO".

I still have much learning to do still, though.

 

[d_flyer]

I have also been working my way into low oxygen. I am almost all stainless steel now, I still use silicon tubing. I first came across the concept several months ago during some down time on an Uncle Sam funded "vacation". I'll admit, at first I was skeptical (to say it politely). However I love experimenting so I gave it a shot and my beer has never been better. It only took a minimal investment (meta is cheap and so are mash caps if you lol hard enough, I use SS cake pans). The two biggest "leaps" for me were preboiling and spunding. All of my beers have been improved. I brew mostly hoppy styles. However I recently brewed a style I greatly dislike as a request from my wife, a stout. I was actually able to drink a full glass! A record for me!

 

[Big Monk]

Ive been slowly working my way through the literature posted by the LODO Team. I havent been able to track down any of the textbooks, but I've been reading up on the articles (Narziss, Bamforth, and others).

I still have much to learn so take what I say with a HUGE grain of salt: for me, the jury is still out on hotside aeration BUT the cold side of the process in MONUMENTALLY IMPORTANT AND DIFFICULT. Any interaction between your beer and the air post fermentation is detrimental to your beer and can take weeks off of its ideal lifespan. Oxidation on the cold side is one thing conclusively proven by food scientists via lab experiments, brewhouse practice, and tasting panels. So purge your vessels as much as possible, spund or carbonate with live active yeast, and get those beers cold asap to reduce your beer's chance of deteriorating too quickly.

On the hot side, 1 study that compared o2 rich and o2 poor worts for phenolic fatty acids (a precursor to enzymatic oxidation) found that, yes, less o2 in the wort did increase its quality, but the difference was not a stark as one might imagine.

(Oxidative degeneration of lipids during mashing. Mariken, et al.)

The difference between o2 rich and o2 poor worts? One was milled in the presence of pure o2, and mashed with continuous exposure to pure o2.

The o2 poor sample was crushed in the presence of pure argon, and mashed with twice dearated water under pure argon pressure without any o2 exposure. In otherwords, almost impossible standards for a homebrewer, and difficult even for a brewery. *Do bear in mind, of course, this is only one example from one study*

The good news is that much of LODO is just a return to good brewing practice and we should all try to comply (hot break skim, separating trub, light rolling boil). But I am not yet convinced of the "less than 1ppm of DO".

I still have much learning to do still, though.

Doubt is a fundamental mechanism of human reason. It’s healthy and prompts further investigation and research. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[The_Bishop]

As you are all probably aware, I was a pretty outspoken opponent of the 'tone' of the original LODO discussion.

That being said, I've implemented and kept some of the processes because they improved the final product. I now have a way to ferment under pressure and spund, and use CO2 generated by fermentation to 'purge' the receiving keg.

I'm willing to give it another shot. The one thing I'm having a bit of trouble finding is Sodium Metabisulfite dosing. What is the measurement in grams/gallon for a given PPM of metabisulfite? This might seem like an elementary thing but I'll be damned if I can find it in a simple format.

 

[jwalk4]

I'm willing to give it another shot. The one thing I'm having a bit of trouble finding is Sodium Metabisulfite dosing. What is the measurement in grams/gallon for a given PPM of metabisulfite? This might seem like an elementary thing but I'll be damned if I can find it in a simple format.

PPM is the same as mg/liter. So say you wanted to try adding 25ppm for 10 gallons of strike water.

Then, 10 gallons = 37.84 liters.

(25mg/L x 37.84L) / 1000 = .946 grams

Or

25mg = .025g
.025g x 37.84L = .946 grams

I'm pretty sure that's right.

 

[h22lude]

As you are all probably aware, I was a pretty outspoken opponent of the 'tone' of the original LODO discussion.

That being said, I've implemented and kept some of the processes because they improved the final product. I now have a way to ferment under pressure and spund, and use CO2 generated by fermentation to 'purge' the receiving keg.

I'm willing to give it another shot. The one thing I'm having a bit of trouble finding is Sodium Metabisulfite dosing. What is the measurement in grams/gallon for a given PPM of metabisulfite? This might seem like an elementary thing but I'll be damned if I can find it in a simple format.

How do you find moving that in and out of the fridge? It seems like it could be a bit odd.

I hope the guys don't mind me linking their site. This spreadsheet is great. Gives you how much NaMeta you should use (in grams) based on the dosage rate you want (in mg/L) but more importantly it tells you how much Na and SO4 you are adding.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/The-Spreadsheet-v.6.2-Public.xlsx

 

[Big Monk]

As you are all probably aware, I was a pretty outspoken opponent of the 'tone' of the original LODO discussion.

That being said, I've implemented and kept some of the processes because they improved the final product. I now have a way to ferment under pressure and spund, and use CO2 generated by fermentation to 'purge' the receiving keg.

I'm willing to give it another shot. The one thing I'm having a bit of trouble finding is Sodium Metabisulfite dosing. What is the measurement in grams/gallon for a given PPM of metabisulfite? This might seem like an elementary thing but I'll be damned if I can find it in a simple format.

For 20-30 ppm you’ll want 0.075-0.11 g/gal. We have that built into our spreadsheet (download from the brewing references page at our site.)

 

[h22lude]

PM me and we can g over it and I’ll send you our brewing spreadsheet

I linked it above, if that is ok. If not, let me know and I can remove the link.

 

[jwalk4]

I linked it above, if that is ok. If not, let me know and I can remove the link.

Remove your avatar pic!

 

[Big Monk]

How do you find moving that in and out of the fridge? It seems like it could be a bit odd.

I hope the guys don't mind me linking their site. This spreadsheet is great. Gives you how much NaMeta you should use (in grams) based on the dosage rate you want (in mg/L) but more importantly it tells you how much Na and SO4 you are adding.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-quick-reference-spreadsheet/

No problem! I would fix the link to point to the full brewing spreadsheet though (The Spreadsheet 6.xx)

 

[h22lude]

Remove your avatar pic!

Too much awesome ya? lol

No problem! I would fix the link to point to the full brewing spreadsheet though (The Spreadsheet 6.xx)

Done

 

[Big Monk]

Too much awesome ya? lol



Done

I think the full sheet is more useful because it accounts for everything and has the water chemistry stuff built right into the recipe portion.

 

[The_Bishop]

Ok, found the spreadsheet. Thanks.

As for moving it, the only time the conical gets moved is after filling it with wort, pitching yeast and hitting it with 02. It then goes into the chamber, and doesn't move again until empty. To 'push' into the keg I have another jumper line that comes from the 'liquid' fitting on the conical and goes to the 'liquid' connection on the keg. The keg gets moved to the floor. I then give the conical a little 'push' with co2, then jumper the gas sides together, and the siphon action does the rest.

 

[jwalk4]

Thanks guys, for opening this thread. I felt like I needed a place to upload my simple LODO related questions without having to make a new thread on the lowoxygenbrewing forum.

Anywahs, I was considering giving myself an x-mas gift this year and I wanted some opinions on what would get me the most lodo bang for my lodo buck.

I currently dont own a grain mill, and Im pretty sure my lhbs gets grain sent to them pre-milled. So I may have always been lamed right of the gate for fresh grain flavor.

I also don't have a stir plate or flask for liquid yeasts or FFTs. I enjoy using dry yeasts for their simplicity and will likely continue on that path. However, FFTs are becoming increasingly important if I want to return to bottles for spunding (only co2 I can get is "industry grade"). Bottles reportedly gain ~ 7ppb of O2 per day, and i guess im okay with that.

So what will improve my lodo more, in your opinion: grain mill or stir plate?

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks guys, for opening this thread. I felt like I needed a place to upload my simple LODO related questions without having to make a new thread on the lowoxygenbrewing forum.

Anywahs, I was considering giving myself an x-mas gift this year and I wanted some opinions on what would get me the most lodo bang for my lodo buck.

I currently dont own a grain mill, and Im pretty sure my lhbs gets grain sent to them pre-milled. So I may have always been lamed right of the gate for fresh grain flavor.

I also don't have a stir plate or flask for liquid yeasts or FFTs. I enjoy using dry yeasts for their simplicity and will likely continue on that path. However, FFTs are becoming increasingly important if I want to return to bottles for spunding (only co2 I can get is "industry grade"). Bottles reportedly gain ~ 7ppb of O2 per day, and i guess im okay with that.

So what will improve my lodo more, in your opinion: grain mill or stir plate?

The mill. You don’t need a stir plate for an FFT. It’s convenient if you already have one but not required.

 

[schematix]

Grain mill saves you money too by buying full sacks. So then you have money for the stir plate, which is a handy tool for sure.

 

[Bilsch]

I'd also have to say the mill. I have a stir plate but really don't use it anymore. A while back I changed to the Beerery's suggested method of starting a new strain/pitch with 4-5 packs/vials per ~6 gal lager batch and then re pitching saved yeast after that. It's so much less trouble then starters.

 

[MSK_Chess]

PPM is the same as mg/liter. So say you wanted to try adding 25ppm for 10 gallons of strike water.

Then, 10 gallons = 37.84 liters.

(25mg/L x 37.84L) / 1000 = .946 grams

Or

25mg = .025g
.025g x 37.84L = .946 grams

I'm pretty sure that's right.

metric is so beautiful!