How long do your lagers take to clear Diacetyl?

[VTMongoose]

In my early days of brewing lagers, I never needed to perform long diacetyl rests that I can recall, however, back then, I didn't really take very good records of things, and it's also possible I've just become more sensitive to the compound diacetyl as time goes on.

Lately, I've found it takes about two weeks for my lagers to clear diacetyl, with a noteable exception being Augustiner which seems to produce very little of it. But with S-189, Diamond, and 34/70, I've found even after a week, they will fail the microwave VDK test even after 7 days at, say, 65°F. I've tried fermenting at 30 psi, 15 psi, atmospheric pressure, cooler (50°F), warmer (55-58°F), you name it. Doesn't seem to matter.

I have a Schwarzbier with S-189 right now that hit terminal exactly one week ago, at which point I ramped slowly from 52°F to 65°F for a D-rest. After about 2-3 days, I then pulled a sample and it was a butter bomb, so I'll patiently wait one more week and then re-check. Yeast pitch rate should have been sufficient: one pack, ~1L starter, crashed, decanted, etc, and primary fermentation completely in a timely 7 days. I did not oxygenate or use yeast nutrients, however, and I'm wondering if those would have helped me.

Bottom line this is the thing that frustrates me about lager brewing, that I have to wait so long for diacetyl to clear when I feel like I shouldn't have that much to begin with, so I'm creating this poll and thread to discuss it.

 

[Jag75]

You must have good taste buds , S-189 is a yeast that has a very low production of diacetyl. Maybe pressure fermenting at a warmer temp would help battle diacetyl.

 

[Willy]

For me, I ferment with pressure, and never had a problem ... Ferment temp - 56°F, 2 weeks, 10 psi for the final 10 days. D+Rest 3-4 days at 63°F , followed by a slow cold crash
Then transfer (LODO) to corny kegs.

 

[DonT]

Have you tried ALDC yet?
https://brulosophy.com/2023/10/30/e...lactate-decarboxylase-aldc-has-on-a-festbier/

 

[dmtaylor]

About 3-4 weeks, NOT DAYS. YMMV

 

[DuncB]

I use ALDC so problem solved.

 

[Broothru]

Have you tried ALDC yet?
https://brulosophy.com/2023/10/30/e...lactate-decarboxylase-aldc-has-on-a-festbier/

Agree. ALDC is da' BOMB! Downside is, it's expensive, though a little goes a long way. If time is of the essence, and diacetyl is a problem, get some ALDC. Or allow for 3-5 days' D-rest and/or lots of time for lagering/cold conditioning in the mid-30s Fahrenheit.

 

[dmtaylor]

I use ALDC so problem solved.

Some call it insurance. I call it cheating, and/or impatient. But I get it. Won't use it myself. But I understand.

 

[Broothru]

Some call it insurance. I call it cheating, and/or impatient. But I get it. Won't use it myself. But I understand.

In 1516, the Germans would have considered it not only "cheating" but an act of blasphemy to even suggest adding yeast to beer wort. With time and the enlightenment, plus observational science provided by Pasteur, we overcame 'the Darkness'. It's a process that continues to evolve .

 

[Broothru]

Some call it insurance. I call it cheating, and/or impatient. But I get it. Won't use it myself. But I understand.

I still do a dedicated D-rest as well as condition/lager, but the conditioning time required is significantly reduced. It's less a measure of impatience than it is one of increased efficiency. Dosing with ALDC has much in common with adding acidulated malt to increase efficiency of the mash and drive pH to lower values for increased stability and food safety concerns in the finished beer. Not a "cheat." Just another tool for brewing better beer.

 

[dmtaylor]

I dunno. I don't get diacetyl in any of my brews, as long as I condition them for a few weeks. No need for ALDC unless you're in a huge rush.

 

[BeerNsteadofH2O]

Once active fermentation stops around the 2/3 week mark, I allow a slow rise to room temp( nax of 68).and hold For 5 days, then transfer to secondary and tuck it away at 33 F for 3 months..

 

[Deadalus]

I didn't have any issues with diacetyl that I noticed in my early brewing journey but once several years ago I did get it in a batch. What was suggested is that you need to leave some sugar aka food for the yeast to clear it up when you increase the temp. At least about 5 points and maybe as much as 1/3 left.

I used to lager in the 45-50 range years ago and I bottled a lot more often. I don't think the low temperature prevented it. I would think bottle conditioning would help clear it. Now I just start ramping up when activity has slowed. This can be judged by airlock bubbling, a Tilt, hydrometer sampling, or looking inside your carboy.

Diacetyl is in part yeast dependent, some yeasts a lot some no. Like another poster mentioned, maybe it was present in the past and I didn't notice it, but it was that one batch where I definitely recognized it.

Other suggestions for fixing it besides time would be to add a small amount of wort after raising the temperature and/or to add a more attentive clean fermenting yeast. I think White Labs California is the suggestion, whichever yeast exactly it is one of the low numbered WLP double 00's.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I didn't have any issues with diacetyl that I noticed in my early brewing journey but once several years ago I did get it in a batch. What was suggested is that you need to leave some sugar aka food for the yeast to clear it up when you increase the temp. At least about 5 points and maybe as much as 1/3 left.

I used to lager in the 45-50 range years ago and I bottled a lot more often. I don't think the low temperature prevented it. I would think bottle conditioning would help clear it. Now I just start ramping up when activity has slowed. This can be judged by airlock bubbling, a Tilt, hydrometer sampling, or looking inside your carboy.

Pretty much what I do. It's a stainless fermenter with a narrow top opening so I don't have a Tilt or anything in there, and so I don't want to mess with trying to get any readings. So when I start to hear the bubbling of the blowoff airlock slowing, I start ramping. Never had any diacetyl issues, although I don't have enough batches under my belt that anything I say has enough of a sample size to draw any real conclusions. I also try to pitch pretty high counts for all batches.

I can say that one of the members of my homebrew club went pro (amongst others; we have a few). He was the guy that I always knew had a goal of doing so, and was the EXACT person I would have targeted to be my head brewer if I'd won the lottery and decided to start a brewpub. So as you can imagine, I have a pretty high opinion of his beers, and one of his flagships was [and is now still as a pro brewer] his Vienna Lager. He's said that he didn't bother with a D-rest as a homebrewer. Said that as long as he had a nice healthy big pitch of yeast, it was never an issue. I don't know what he does now as a pro of course; his secrets are his own lol...

 

[Kickass]

I ferment my lagers around 62f with 34/70. Big pitch and warmer temps means they are done fermenting in 4 days. I start ramping the temp 2f per day on day 2. Day 7-10, cold crash and lager for a bit.

 

[Deadalus]

I've used WLP800, 802, 820, 830, 833, 838, 860. (Might be others...) It was possibly the WLP800 that had the diacetyl, I think it was a pils.

I usually also pitch high counts and in the low fifties.