The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[schematix]

I’m still looking for someone to gold plate my hydra....

 

[homoeccentricus]

A step wise approach is fine, just don't kid yourself into thinking you are following a truly scientific approach or the teachings of Kunze or Narziss while doing it. If people need to make a hundred no Low oxygen batches while incorporating a step by step tiny change approach, then by all means, just don't kid yourself into thinking you haven't volatized the polyphenols we are all so desperately trying to keep.
I understand you and that other guy have put some time into a website and need to make this approachable to the average homebrewer, but by sacrificing the very specific and technical aspects of the brewing process to do that, you destroy it in the process. Here's the science and inescapable truth: Low oxygen brewing yields a different product that other methods, and for a homebrewer, you have a very very very small margin of error. Throwing 50 feet of copper into your beer, or having a 1 foot deep, half foot wide open mash with no mash cap or any number of other things I've hear people espouse to doing while still claiming to be doing low oxygen brewing is simply incorrect and a bastardization of all the work brewing scientists have done on this subject.

You would not be, by any chance, associated with that other site?

 

[newuser12345]

I agree. It would be very hard for a lot of people to get new equipment or replace their current stuff all at once. While brewing with a cooper chiller may not be the best lodo practice, it gets people to try lodo with other parts of brewing until they can get all SS parts.

I'm just starting and will be using my cooper chiller. I don't have brewtan b either. Not the best situation but it is what I have to deal with for now. It will still be less oxygen than before. Maybe for those that can't go full out right away, we call it lower oxygen brewing.

If it was easy, we'd all be making Bitburger. Copper chiller with no mitigation for its effects will preclude you from brewing low oxygen. This isn't me saying this, this is brewing science.

 

[newuser12345]

I’m still looking for someone to gold plate my hydra....

with the lack of commercially available SS chillers available to homebrewers, an idea like this aint bad haha.

 

[newuser12345]

You would not be, by any chance, associated with that other site?

I have no site affiliation. Just passionate about beer and have studied and practiced this aspect of brewing and its VERY difficult to see the shortcuts, and to use a much maligned word, bastardization of the process to placate the homebrewing masses.

 

[Big Monk]

A step wise approach is fine, just don't kid yourself into thinking you are following a truly scientific approach or the teachings of Kunze or Narziss while doing it. If people need to make a hundred no Low oxygen batches while incorporating a step by step tiny change approach, then by all means, just don't kid yourself into thinking you haven't volatized the polyphenols we are all so desperately trying to keep.
I understand you and that other guy have put some time into a website and need to make this approachable to the average homebrewer, but by sacrificing the very specific and technical aspects of the brewing process to do that, you destroy it in the process. Here's the science and inescapable truth: Low oxygen brewing yields a different product that other methods, and for a homebrewer, you have a very very very small margin of error. Throwing 50 feet of copper into your beer, or having a 1 foot deep, half foot wide open mash with no mash cap or any number of other things I've hear people espouse to doing while still claiming to be doing low oxygen brewing is simply incorrect and a bastardization of all the work brewing scientists have done on this subject.

Ultimately we adhere strictly and fully to the tenants of Low Oxygen brewing (we being Beerery and I and a good number of regulars on our own forum). We blog about a great number of topics and always clearly state where there is an opportunity for departure from the generally accepted and acknowledged techniques. We also let people know what they may lose by deviating.

Advocating that people take a step-wise approach is a compromise we are willing to endure if it means that people try the method and report back results. Many people have stated that were it not for their initial shortcomings (and the subsequent advice they got from others on improving) they wouldn't be brewing such quality beer as they do now.

Believe me when I say this: We have a great respect for Kunze, Narziss, Fix, De Clerck, etc. I don't think anyone that deviates from the process feels they are disrespecting great brewing scientists by doing so. Many have an even greater admiration for them after they begin using the techniques. They are merely doing what they can with their time and equipment to try the process. Most find that after they taste Low Oxygen wort coming from the mash tun that they are more than willing to make improvements toward making that flavor last.

What has your experience with Low Oxygen brewing shown you? Do you have any insights that you'd like to share? We are always looking for opinions on the process and how people are making it work in their setup. What is your setup like? People are always looking for setup descriptions so that they can use it as a reference.

Please share!

 

[Big Monk]

I have no site affiliation. Just passionate about beer and have studied and practiced this aspect of brewing and its VERY difficult to see the shortcuts, and to use a much maligned word, bastardization of the process to placate the homebrewing masses.

Passion is where it's at. We just ask that everyone who wants to contribute to the thread do it respectfully. There are people trying the methods who understand some of the shortcomings in their own process and want to improve. We don't want to alienate a potential contributor.

We have a whole slew of people from many forums who are getting interested and excited about this. The best thing we can do is help those people along.

I like h22lude's idea of calling it "lower oxygen" brewing until fully converted!

 

[schematix]

with the lack of commercially available SS chillers available to homebrewers, an idea like this aint bad haha.

Seriously bling factor too.

 

[h22lude]

If it was easy, we'd all be making Bitburger. Copper chiller with no mitigation for its effects will preclude you from brewing low oxygen. This isn't me saying this, this is brewing science.

I understand that. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying a lot of people need to take steps to get to low oxygen brewing. Not everyone can afford to replace everything all at once. If cooper is the only thing keeping someone from brewing a true low oxygen beer, I'd say they are well on their way to low oxygen. This is why I made the last comment in my last post...call it lower oxygen brewing. If I change my process to low oxygen but still use a cooper chiller, my beers will still have less oxygen than they did before....lower oxygen.

Having a negative attitude (or at least coming off that way) will keep people away from these types of posts. I understand what you are trying to say but I think you need to realize that people need to take steps to get to the end result and by doing so they aren't disrespecting the scientists/brewers that helped pave the way for this.

 

[h22lude]

Back on topic, I want to keep NaMeta use low. I also want to try Brewtan while I have my cooper chiller. I plan on using 10mg/l of NaMeta (.3g for my mash). This puts SO4 to 10 and Na to 2.5. How do I figure how much Brewtan B to use and does that affect anything in the water?

 

[newuser12345]

I understand that. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying a lot of people need to take steps to get to low oxygen brewing. Not everyone can afford to replace everything all at once. If cooper is the only thing keeping someone from brewing a true low oxygen beer, I'd say they are well on their way to low oxygen. This is why I made the last comment in my last post...call it lower oxygen brewing. If I change my process to low oxygen but still use a cooper chiller, my beers will still have less oxygen than they did before....lower oxygen.

Having a negative attitude (or at least coming off that way) will keep people away from these types of posts. I understand what you are trying to say but I think you need to realize that people need to take steps to get to the end result and by doing so they aren't disrespecting the scientists/brewers that helped pave the way for this.

this is true, but the polyphenols that give these beers the elusive taste we're in search of will not be present and you certainly wont be brewing to the specs of the very brewing scientists that brought forth this method of brewing.

 

[Big Monk]

Back on top, I want to keep NaMeta use low. I also want to try Brewtan while I have my cooper chiller. I plan on using 10mg/l of NaMeta (.3g for my mash). This puts SO4 to 10 and Na to 2.5. How do I figure how much Brewtan B to use and does that affect anything in the water?

What system changes have you made? We recommend 20-30 ppm to start depending on what your equipment upgrades have been.

BTB doesn't affect water composition or pH like Meta does. The recommended values listed on Wyeast's site for the mash is 0.25 g/gal.

 

[Big Monk]

this is true, but the polyphenols that give these beers the elusive taste we're in search of will not be present and you certainly wont be brewing to the specs of the very brewing scientists that brought forth this method of brewing.

There are plenty of people tasting the characteristic Low Oxygen malt flavor coming out of the mash tun. Whether it persists is the question.

That's what people are working on. People using copper and Brewtan B are experiencing persistent Low Oxygen malt flavor. It's a learning process for sure and those who pick it up are eager to preserve the flavor from the tun into the finished and packaged beer.

 

[newuser12345]

Ultimately we adhere strictly and fully to the tenants of Low Oxygen brewing (we being Beerery and I and a good number of regulars on our own forum). We blog about a great number of topics and always clearly state where there is an opportunity for departure from the generally accepted and acknowledged techniques. We also let people know what they may lose by deviating.

Advocating that people take a step-wise approach is a compromise we are willing to endure if it means that people try the method and report back results. Many people have stated that were it not for their initial shortcomings (and the subsequent advice they got from others on improving) they wouldn't be brewing such quality beer as they do now.

Believe me when I say this: We have a great respect for Kunze, Narziss, Fix, De Clerck, etc. I don't think anyone that deviates from the process feels they are disrespecting great brewing scientists by doing so. Many have an even greater admiration for them after they begin using the techniques. They are merely doing what they can with their time and equipment to try the process. Most find that after they taste Low Oxygen wort coming from the mash tun that they are more than willing to make improvements toward making that flavor last.

What has your experience with Low Oxygen brewing shown you? Do you have any insights that you'd like to share? We are always looking for opinions on the process and how people are making it work in their setup. What is your setup like? People are always looking for setup descriptions so that they can use it as a reference.

Please share!

to the first highlighted text, this method does not afford "departure". This is a precise scientific method of brewing, and at the homebrewing level there is even less of a margin of error that allows for "departure".

to the second, your compromise is destroying the very thing you're after. Science doesn't compromise. You are consenting to let new brewers volatize the very compounds that you are purporting to seek. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

to the third, claiming to have great respect for brewing scientists, and quoting them at every turn, then admittedly allowing deviation from their scientific methods is disingenuous at best. You can respect them by following their discoveries and scientific methods and not compromise their work to placate the homebrewing masses.


The truth is, trying this approach with traditional homebrewing equipment (copper, poor or non existent trub separation, poor grain crush, the list goes on and on) is not possible. If brewers want to do this, they need to concede to the science that already exists and do it right.

Heres a very simple analogy: I want to make a yeast starter, but I only have boiling water available, do I concede and compromise to throw my yeast into boiling water because my limitations dictate I do so? No, of course not, in my quest for what I'm after (more yeast) I destroy the very thing I'm hoping to accomplish.

 

[Big Monk]

to the first highlighted text, this method does not afford "departure". This is a precise scientific method of brewing, and at the homebrewing level there is even less of a margin of error that allows for "departure".

to the second, your compromise is destroying the very thing you're after. Science doesn't compromise. You are consenting to let new brewers volatize the very compounds that you are purporting to seek. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

to the third, claiming to have great respect for brewing scientists, and quoting them at every turn, then admittedly allowing deviation from their scientific methods is disingenuous at best. You can respect them by following their discoveries and scientific methods and not compromise their work to placate the homebrewing masses.


The truth is, trying this approach with traditional homebrewing equipment (copper, poor or non existent trub separation, poor grain crush, the list goes on and on) is not possible. If brewers want to do this, they need to concede to the science that already exists and do it right.

Heres a very simple analogy: I want to make a yeast starter, but I only have boiling water available, do I concede and compromise to throw my yeast into boiling water because my limitations dictate I do so? No, of course not, in my quest for what I'm after (more yeast) I destroy the very thing I'm hoping to accomplish.

You seem passionate. That leads me to believe you have tried the process. That's a good thing. We (the royal we) would love to hear about your experiences using low oxygen methods.

You also seem to be itching for a fight, which is alright too. That comes with passion. Just don't expect much constructive conversation.

Again, I hope you'll share your thoughts on your process, experiences and equipment choices here. We would love to hear how you've implemented the process and would love to see your equipment.

Our thoughts and ideas are documented here if you are interested in reading:

http://www.********************/

 

[newuser12345]

I have shared my thoughts. If people want to do low oxygen brewing, then read the classic texts, get the proper tools and equipment to do so and do it.

 

[Big Monk]

I have shared my thoughts. If people want to do low oxygen brewing, then read the classic texts, get the proper tools and equipment to do so and do it.

I meant share your thoughts on your process. You seem to have adopted the technique and must surely have some insights on how you integrated them into your setup and process.

 

[newuser12345]

And stop compromising and calling is low oxygen. It simply isn't. When oxidize your beer, it is no longer low oxygen. this isn't a difficult concept to understand.

 

[Big Monk]

And stop compromising and calling is low oxygen. It simply isn't. When oxidize your beer, it is no longer low oxygen. this isn't a difficult concept to understand.

So your main beef is with people using copper without a chelating agent such as Brewtan B/gallotannin? Is that correct?

They represent a small subsection of the people trying it and are more than willing to rectify it as soon as they are able.

 

[newuser12345]

I meant share your thoughts on your process. You seem to have adopted the technique and must surely have some insights on how you integrated them into your setup and process.

sure. Dial in your cold side completely. closed transfers, 100% flushed kegs, spunding and proper fermentation management. Pitching rates, temps and most of what homebrewers consider good practice are out the window with this. Eliminate copper, develop a way to preboil and chill to pitching temps rapidly. mind your ph. Stop crushing your grain to flour. Small adjustable SS wine fermenters with adjustable fermentation caps make an easy mash tun with a proper fitting mash cap. Get your water chemistry right. To call commercially avaialbe co2 of dubious purity is an understatement. The truth is, most of it is impure as hell and will oxidize your beer. Theres plenty more I'm just thinking on the fly here.

 

[Big Monk]

sure. Dial in your cold side completely. closed transfers, spunding and proper fermentation management. Pitching rates, temps and most of what homebrewers consider good practice are out the window with this. Eliminate copper, develop a way to preboil and chill to pitching temps rapidly. mind your ph. Stop crushing your grain to flour. Small adjustable SS wine fermenters with adjustable fermentation caps make an easy mash tun with a proper fitting mash cap. Get your water chemistry right. To call commercially avaialbe co2 of dubious purity is an understatement. The truth is, most of it is impure as hell and will oxidize your beer. Theres plenty more I'm just thinking on the fly here.

This is all stuff that we are well aware of.

I'm looking for less of a retread of the German Brewing Forum's paper content and our website content and more of your personal experience.

How did you get into it? Was it the original "Helles" paper that inspired you?

 

[newuser12345]

So your main beef is with people using copper without a chelating agent such as Brewtan B/gallotannin? Is that correct?

They represent a small subsection of the people trying it and are more than willing to rectify it as soon as they are able.

my main "beef" are compromises being made to placate homebrewers that negate and destroy the thing you're actually after. For some this is a hobby, for others its an obsessive passion. This method simply isn't for hobbyists.

 

[z-bob]

And stop compromising and calling is low oxygen. It simply isn't. When oxidize your beer, it is no longer low oxygen. this isn't a difficult concept to understand.

So, trying to improve my dough-in technique to reduce air entrainment, and the use of oxygen scavengers is a waste of time if that's all I do. Got it. I'm out. I'll check the lodo thread again in a couple of years when I have the rest of my brewing science down. Meanwhile, I don't want to be a branded a heretic by the True Believers just because I'm trying to learn something by incremental changes.

 

[Big Monk]

my main "beef" are compromises being made to placate homebrewers that negate and destroy the thing you're actually after. For some this is a hobby, for others its an obsessive passion. This method simply isn't for hobbyists.

Other than copper with no chelating agent, what compromises are you talking about?

 

[newuser12345]

This is all stuff that we are well aware of.

I'm looking for less of a retread of the German Brewing Forum's paper content and our website content and more of your personal experience.

How did you get into it? Was it the original "Helles" paper that inspired you?

what inspired me were tasting certain beers and being completely unable to replicate or produce anything that came close to their flavor. At first it was an annoyance, then a challenge, then something I thought about a lot and made the requisite steps towards the knowledge and technique necessary to make them.

 

[Big Monk]

So, trying to improve my dough-in technique to reduce air entrainment, and the use of oxygen scavengers is a waste of time if that's all I do. Got it. I'm out. I'll check the lodo thread again in a couple of years when I have the rest of my brewing science down. Meanwhile, I don't want to be a branded a heretic by the True Believers just because I'm trying to learn something by incremental changes.

This person is NOT associated with us.

We want you to stick around!

It's important to filter out the noise here. newuser12345 doesn't speak for us at ********************. Let's keep the conversation moving forward in order to help those who want to try out the methods.

 

[newuser12345]

So, trying to improve my dough-in technique to reduce air entrainment, and the use of oxygen scavengers is a waste of time if that's all I do. Got it. I'm out. I'll check the lodo thread again in a couple of years when I have the rest of my brewing science down. Meanwhile, I don't want to be a branded a heretic by the True Believers just because I'm trying to learn something by incremental changes.

this technique is doesn't allow for incremental changes.

 

[Big Monk]

this technique is doesn't allow for incremental changes.

It's important to note that whether someone uses copper or not, or force carbonates, or does anything else that may compromise the lingering malt flavors you get from Low Oxygen brewing, it does not change the fact that if they follow procedure up to and including coming out of the mash tun they will taste the vast difference between traditional wort and Low Oxygen wort. There is no disputing that.

Compromises after that will affect the longevity of these flavors. No one disputes that, but the most important point is that they have tasted it and often work very hard to preserve that through to packaging. If you are losing it after the boil, then use Brewtan B or sub SS for copper. If you are losing at packaging, then improve your cold side process. Even those who followed procedure to a T and made immediate process changes still had a learning curve. You have to start somewhere.

I can't see anything wrong with that, especially considering that I follow the procedures to a T. If you don't make room for people who want to improve then no one is ever going to try it.

 

[h22lude]

What system changes have you made? We recommend 20-30 ppm to start depending on what your equipment upgrades have been.

BTB doesn't affect water composition or pH like Meta does. The recommended values listed on Wyeast's site for the mash is 0.25 g/gal.

I e-BIAB full mash volume. Boil mash water then chill (with cooper).
Recirculating mash through a Locline which is underneath the level of the mash. Mash cap and kettle lid. Boil wort with a boil off of 15% but I'm going to test lower power and less lid gap to get it closer to 10%. Whirlpool using a whirlpool arm about half way down so now splashing. Chill to pitch temp. Transfer to my fermentor, pitch a large starter and aerate with pure O2 at .5LPM for 2 minutes. I haven't decided if I will let this ferment out and then add priming sugar or keg with 4 points left. Right now it is hard for me to test gravity without getting O2 into the fermentor. I have a bucket w/o a spigot, carboy and bottling bucket to use. I usually use the bucket w/o spigot but no way to get a reading without opening it. Carboy is good for closed transfers but still hard to get a reading. This is way I'm thinking I'll let it ferment out before transferring. I'll match some priming sugar and inject it through the carboy cap with a syringe. I purge my kegs with StarSan. I'm going to try a new way of getting everything out that someone posted in another thread. Fill it with StarSan, tip it upside down and fill the rest through the gas post. The O2 will come out the beer dip tube. Once StarSan comes out, the keg is completely O2 free. I'll use my spunging valve on the keg until it is ready to serve.

 

[Bilsch]

my main "beef" are compromises being made to placate homebrewers that negate and destroy the thing you're actually after. For some this is a hobby, for others its an obsessive passion. This method simply isn't for hobbyists.

There are a lot of levels of obsessive. I am passionate about low oxygen brewing but I don't think you need to be hardcore to make it work. A little study, some attention to detail and almost anyone should be able to pull it off. It might not be exactly like the professionals do it but there is always more then one way to skin a cat.
I respectfully disagree with your last assertion. The methods we are talking about here are exactly for hobbyists.

 

[MSK_Chess]

the bastardization of all the research and work done by people prior to the homebrew scaling and dumbing down of Low oxygen brewing drives me nuts. The truth is, the threshold of DO is very low. This is one area where the pros have it better than us. Mash tun geometry, automation, more high tech oxygen stripping tech and precision engineering gve the pros an upper hand.

I cringe for Kunze when I hear concessions being made that render the entire process pointless.

Sure but even at homebrew level I have noticed significant improvement on my beers pre "pseudo LODO" attempts, remarkably better results infact as I suspect have others. How are we to account for it? Delusion? Wishful thinking? or empirical evidence in our glass?

 

[fuzzy2133]

Well it is at total bummer I can not even attempt a LODO brew session with my copper IC and current equipment.
Yea like that is really going to stop home brewers from attempting a new process.

 

[Big Monk]

Well it is at total bummer I can not even attempt a LODO brew session with my copper IC and current equipment.
Yea like that is really going to stop home brewers from attempting a new process.

 

[newuser12345]

Sure but even at homebrew level I have noticed significant improvement on my beers pre "pseudo LODO" attempts, remarkably better results infact as I suspect have others. How are we to account for it? Delusion? Wishful thinking? or empirical evidence in our glass?

some of the things that these two guys are advocating are good regardless of your methods being low oxygen or not. Spunding is good, better ph management is good, fermentation control is good know matter the style of beer (with a couple obvious exceptions). The thing is, all the science and groundwork has already been laid out for this type of brewing. Its all there, albeit sometimes in German haha but this is an all encompassing technique. Pre boiling your water then saturating it with copper and then coupling it with the massive surface area most homebrew mash tuns employ will prevents you from brewing according to the science of this method. Not wanting it to be so because copper is cheap and plentiful and igloo coolers are easy to find doesn't change science. Its true whether you want it to be or not.

 

[Big Monk]

some of the things that these two guys are advocating are good regardless of your methods being low oxygen or not. Spunding is good, better ph management is good, fermentation control is good know matter the style of beer (with a couple obvious exceptions). The thing is, all the science and groundwork has already been laid out for this type of brewing. Its all there, albeit sometimes in German haha but this is an all encompassing technique. Pre boiling your water then saturating it with copper and then coupling it with the massive surface area most homebrew mash tuns employ will prevents you from brewing according to the science of this method. Not wanting it to be so because copper is cheap and plentiful and igloo coolers are easy to find doesn't change science. Its true whether you want it to be or not.

Saturating it with copper? We’ve researched the concept of the Fenton reaction extensively and we advocate using Brewtan B or another similar gallotannin based substance if using metals other than SS. With that said, we still want people to try it. You mentioned before that people not 100% complying was like “throwing the baby out with the bath water...”. I think excluding them on those grounds is a better representation of that idiom.

You’re going to have to do better than vaguely regurgitating something you got second hand if you want to have a serious discussion about this with us. We’ve referenced everything we discuss and out “bastardizing” of Low Oxygen has tons of study, experimentation and documentation behind it.

Surface area is mitigated with a mash cap. Not hard to do or expensive.

The humor of being chastised by someone that is advocating I’m not being Low Oxygen enough is not lost on me. Escpecially since most who know me will remember I was on the other side of the argument on April 2016.

All those who are trying the methods out: keep doing what you are doing. “Rome wasn’t built in a day” and when you get your process down you’ll be happy you came along for the ride.

Now back to actually talking about methods and process!

 

[newuser12345]

Well it is at total bummer I can not even attempt a LODO brew session with my copper IC and current equipment.
Yea like that is really going to stop home brewers from attempting a new process.

I think I like the term lower oxygen, this is just not compatible with the methods and science. The delicate polyphenols will be gone.

 

[newuser12345]

Saturating it with copper? We’ve researched the concept of the Fenton reaction extensively and we advocate using Brewtan B or another similar gallotannin based substance if using metals other than SS. You’re going to have to do better than vaguely regurgitating something you got second hand if you want to have a serious discussion about this with us. We’ve reference everything we discuss and out “bastardizing” of Low Oxygen has tons of study, experimentation and documentation behind it.

Surface area is mitigated with a mash cap. Not hard to do or expensive.

The humor of being chastised by someone that is advocating I’m not being Low Oxygen enough is not lost on me. Escpecially since most who know me will remember I was on the other side of the argument on April 2016.

you've advocated for food grade tannins to mitigate the fenton reactions while simultaneously telling people it's ok to take a tiered approach and not. Its double speak and not scientifically correct.

I agree, food grade tannins are cheap, a mash cap is cheap, and SS equipment is out there if you seek it, but please stop telling people that its ok not to use them if they cant or don't want to. You're wasting their time, your time and ignoring the science and teachings of Kunze.

 

[mabrungard]

This worry over copper seems overblown to me. Unless your copper components are bright and shiny, the oxide layer and any organic layer on the copper surface should help keep ionic copper out of your wort. My brewing system has a number of copper tubes and I've used copper test strips to check copper levels in wort and found none. With that said, I recall that the reporting limit is about 10 ppm, so the result isn't all that valuable.

 

[newuser12345]

This worry over copper seems overblown to me. Unless your copper components are bright and shiny, the oxide layer and any organic layer on the copper surface should help keep ionic copper out of your wort. My brewing system has a number of copper tubes and I've used copper test strips to check copper levels in wort and found none. With that said, I recall that the reporting limit is about 10 ppm, so the result isn't all that valuable.

With the threshold as low as it is, I wouldn't trust something as notoriously inaccurate as paper test strips. Same goes for sulfite test strips. You need to fork out the money for a sulfite tester.

 

[Big Monk]

you've advocated for food grade tannins to mitigate the fenton reactions while simultaneously telling people it's ok to take a tiered approach and not. Its double speak and not scientifically correct.

I agree, food grade tannins are cheap, a mash cap is cheap, and SS equipment is out there if you seek it, but please stop telling people that its ok not to use them if they cant or don't want to. You're wasting their time, your time and ignoring the science and teachings of Kunze.

For the record, we advocate that people DON’T use copper without a chelating agent. You are conflating our not chastising people for doing so with us promoting it. We don’t want to turn people off the methods for missing a single piece.

There is more to the Fenton reaction than instantaneous oxidation. We have plenty of academic and technical material on our site if you are interest. Check the brewing references page.