The Extract "twang" - what is it?

[Beernik]

I think its most likely either insufficient FAN (free amino nitrogen) which is a necessary nutrient for proper fermentation or its cidery/cloying off flavors because the LME has been diluted with sucrose or other adjuncts.

The FAN issue should be easily resolvable by adding yeast nutrient to the boil.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

It is the metallic taste from the can and the canned extract is at least 6 months old before the store gets it. So, it is about 9 months before you brew with it. We sell extract in bulk (150,000 pounds of it per year at last count) and do not have any complaints about twang. We only order extract made in North America so it is really fresh.

Forrest

 

[ChshreCat]

I'm with Forrest on this one completely. The LME I get at my local shop is probably the same stuff he sells (big blue containers, Forrest?) and it's a fresh as it gets. No twang in my beers at all! I'd proudly line my beers up alongside anyone's AG brews and dare people to tell which one is which. I'm sure that twang happens, but it's not just something that automatically comes with using LME. And I don't use nutrient in my brews.

 

[jalgayer]

Move to partial mashing and late extract addition. I had extract twang until I used the method in this article:

http://byo.com/feature/1536.html

That article is down... can anyone give a summary?

 

[GNBrews]

This is the article he was linking to:

http://www.byo.com/component/resource/article/511-countertop-partial-mashing

 

[Beernik]

This gets back to the FAN issue. Steeping and PM grains add more FAN to the wort.

 

[tomheff]

It is the metallic taste from the can and the canned extract is at least 6 months old before the store gets it. So, it is about 9 months before you brew with it. We sell extract in bulk (150,000 pounds of it per year at last count) and do not have any complaints about twang. We only order extract made in North America so it is really fresh.

Forrest

Yes there is a maillard reaction from age but there is also one with boiling the malt extract. It is not the can. It is the age of the can and care of the can.

 

[gunnyg]

VGDS:
See Bader's Boil The Hops; Not The Malt, No.3...

" The advantages to this method are that you can:

1) Make a beer with a lighter color.
2) Make a beer with higher levels of hop bitterness.
3) Minimize the carmelization of the malt extract sugars, giving you more appropriate flavors. Some brewers call this carmelization ¡§malt extract taste¡¨ "

More appropriate flavors = no/less "twang"

VGDS!

 

[CrazyP]

I haven't noticed the LME twang in my own brews yet, but when I think of twang I think of the taste difference between fruits canned in steel cans vs. plastic containers. Acidic fruits like mandarin oranges and pineapple in cans have especially strong metallic flavors. Is this same flavor I should watch out for or is it a different type of twang?

 

[TurboBrew]

I've made many extract beers and have not experienced this. If you search malt extract twang, the only sources you get are forums. I don't think it exists. I think it's just a flaw caused by something else that's being blamed on the malt extract.

 

[withak]

What does the only sources being forms have to do with anything? Anyway, reading those forums results, it sounds like it should more accurately be called "stale old extract twang" or "inexperienced brewer twang".

 

[gunnyg]

Re dictionary.com

Synonyms: acidity, aroma, astringency, bitterness, essence, extract, gusto, hotness, piquancy, pungency, relish, saltiness, sapidity, savor, seasoning, smack*, sourness, spiciness, sweetness, tang, tartness, taste, twang, vim, wallop, zest, zing

 

[TurboBrew]

What does the only sources being forms have to do with anything? Anyway, reading those forums results, it sounds like it should more accurately be called "stale old extract twang" or "inexperienced brewer twang".

Forums aren't legitimate reference. It's just word of mouth. Meaning no one has ever done any accredited research on "extract twang". I completely agree that old gross malt extract will male gross old tasting beer.

 

[gunnyg]

"accredited research "
****************

accredited by whom???

Hilarious!

 

[neovox]

It is the metallic taste from the can and the canned extract is at least 6 months old before the store gets it. So, it is about 9 months before you brew with it. We sell extract in bulk (150,000 pounds of it per year at last count) and do not have any complaints about twang. We only order extract made in North America so it is really fresh.
Forrest

I can't say that I've experienced the "twang", but this explanation makes sense to me. So, are you saying that regardless of age you always experience the "twang" in metal canned LME vs. that stored in say a plastic container?

 

[gunnyg]

Again and again and again:

Don't boil the gd LME/DME for NO twang--to bring yerself to not boil DME/LME, you may very well indeed have to force yerself to refrain from paying attention to "opinions," in print, videos, and on those pesky forums--that simple!


Fino!
*****

 

[TurboBrew]

"accredited research "
****************

accredited by whom???

Hilarious!

http://www.aahrpp.org/www.aspx - totally didn't expect an actual accreditation association to exist. Gotta love google.

But seriously, forums lack the crucial fact checking that a published research work has. It makes it very hard to believe that something I have never witnessed in my own beer is not a mistake being misinterpreted by another brewer.

 

[gunnyg]

http://www.aahrpp.org/www.aspx - totally didn't expect an actual accreditation association to exist. Gotta love google.

But seriously, forums lack the crucial fact checking that a published research work has. It makes it very hard to believe that something I have never witnessed in my own beer is not a mistake being misinterpreted by another brewer.

***********

Yep/agreed!

Just try not boiling the extract--cept for a small amount w/ some hops, then add it to the boiled water after you take it off the burner, stir in the bulk of the extract (dme/lme), add all other sugars/hops as Bader says, and NO further boiling!--that's the only way to prove it to yourself.

I started w/a MrBeer in 97/98 and not boiling came more natural to me, when I learned of this method.

Got away from it (brewing)for a few years and forgot about the no boil factor, and ruined a few batches boiling the extract--when I finally found Bader's webpage it dawned on me that I had previously gone to no-boil extract (years prior) and it solved my "twang" (so-called) problem. I then went back to no-boil extract. No problems since.

Amazing that something so simple and basic can elude and confound us so.

 

[AlterCow]

***********

Yep/agreed!

Just try not boiling the extract--cept for a small amount w/ some hops, then add it to the boiled water after you take it off the burner, stir in the bulk of the extract (dme/lme), add all other sugars/hops as Bader says, and NO further boiling!--that's the only way to prove it to yourself.

I started w/a MrBeer in 97/98 and not boiling came more natural to me, when I learned of this method.

Got away from it (brewing)for a few years and forgot about the no boil factor, and ruined a few batches boiling the extract--when I finally found Bader's webpage it dawned on me that I had previously gone to no-boil extract (years prior) and it solved my "twang" (so-called) problem. I then went back to no-boil extract. No problems since.

Amazing that something so simple and basic can elude and confound us so.

I am trying this with the next batch. Wow...I would have never of thought about this.

 

[Beernik]

Darryl Richman talks about it for 4.5 pages in Classic Beer Style Serirs: Bock. He also references a 1991 Journal of American Society of Brewing Chemists titled "Malt Extract: Relationship of Chemical Composition to Fermentability" where one of the conclusions is that some LME manufacturers appear to be diluting their LME with glucose syrup.

Addition of glucose syrup can do two things: increase the probability of off flavors because it ferments cidery and it reduces the nutrients yeast need for fermentation.

 

[Erythro73]

I am trying this with the next batch. Wow...I would have never of thought about this.

You might want to search the forum for "Late extract addition".

 

[Synovia]

http://www.aahrpp.org/www.aspx -
But seriously, forums lack the crucial fact checking that a published research work has.

Definitely. I don't know how many times I've seen a hobby board take some sort of comment like "I mean, theoretically, if you do Y, X could happen", and it gets repeated and twisted and repeated, till its finally "DON'T DO Y BECAUSE X WILL HAPPEN" when no one has actually ever run into the issue.

 

[rayg]

As I've posted before, I don't think there is any such thing as
"extract twang". I've brewed great beer with new and old liquid
malt extract with no problems. Imo if you can't brew a great beer
with two cans of malt extract and some hops, you are doing something
else wrong. The only way old extract could possibly be a problem
is if you are trying to brew a Bud clone with 12 IBU, then you might
be able to taste something. I've brewed porter with 3 year old
cans of LME stored at room temp and I couldn't taste anything
odd or bad.

Ray

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Old extract will develop a cidery taste. Extract in metal cans will develop a metallic taste. It is time and metals fault that you taste something you call "extract twang". If the extract is fresh and from bulk you will not have that problem. It is not the extract's fault.

If you do an all grain batch incorrectly the beer will have a lot of tannins. The astringency because of the tannins shall be called "All-Grain twang" from this point forward.

Forrest

 

[devilishprune]

So if the twang of LME is in part due to it being canned, if you use a plastic jug of the stuff would that (theoretically) reduce the possibility for extract twang?

I just brewed a batch with LME last night and now I'm concerned for the wellbeing of my beer.

 

[gunnyg]

Since the word "twang" itself has a wide range of meanings...

*****
ref dictionary.com

Definition: odor and taste
Synonyms: acidity, aroma, astringency, bitterness, essence, extract, gusto, hotness, piquancy, pungency, relish, saltiness, sapidity, sapor, savor, seasoning, smack, sourness, spiciness, sweetness, tang, tartness, twang, vim, wallop,
*****

...it is easy to see how this term has become the whipping boy for whatever taste/flavor (actual or perceived) by anyone who finds something unwanted in his/her brew.

Many tastes, many explanations, and yet it has been only extract brewing/brewers who take the rap, and further, it gets pinned on malt extract, and beyond that even LME over DME!!!!!

Come on now....



The jig is up--there is no "twang."

 

[Revvy]

since the word "twang" itself has a wide range of meanings...

*****
ref dictionary.com

definition: Odor and taste
synonyms: Acidity, aroma, astringency, bitterness, essence, extract, gusto, hotness, piquancy, pungency, relish, saltiness, sapidity, sapor, savor, seasoning, smack, sourness, spiciness, sweetness, tang, tartness, twang, vim, wallop,
*****

...it is easy to see how this term has become the whipping boy for whatever taste/flavor (actual or perceived) by anyone who finds something unwanted in his/her brew.

Many tastes, many explanations, and yet it has been only extract brewing/brewers who take the rap, and further, it gets pinned on malt extract, and beyond that even lme over dme!!!!!

Come on now....



the jig is up--there is no "twang."

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000

 

[cheezydemon3]

In my brews I noticed the TWANG more with dark beers, and it seemed to be a PH problem.

Adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), a tbsp or so (varying depending on your water and how much dark grain is used) has fixed this problem.

BYO had an article explaining that the base grains used for AG somehow fix the PH of dark beers, where as DME or LME do not.

 

[BigB]

Gunny... Now if people can narrow it down to LME and for the most part specify that it is only present with the canned crap, how can you possibly discount that? Is it because you never personally tasted it? Do you extract brew? Do you make lighter brews or heavier brews like stouts? Have you tried different brewing methods? And no offense, although Revvy is an experienced brewer, this is the same guy who brewed with old corn chips...I think his tounge is fried.

 

[gunnyg]

Has anyone heard the one about adding one drop of olive oil to your wort just before fermentation?