The Extract "twang" - what is it?

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pacebrew said:
But my beers went from good to phenomenal when i switched from extract to All grain.
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I would contend it's a good bet your beers got better as you went from extract to all grain because you became a better brewer as that time went.

Oh crap! Someone woke this thread up! Some things are better left dead! :drunk:
 
haha, RIIGGHT. i think reallly it depends on the malt being used, and its age. plain and simple.

Ive never encountered it in the darker extract brews. only the lighter ones, for what its worth.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
I'm not so sure this one's a myth. Plenty of experienced brewers claim the same thing regarding an improvement in their beer when moving from LME to DME or AG. I only brewed one batch with LME, so I'm not much of an authority, but that batch was one of the worst I've made (kit+kilo brew).

Just because it's not on Snopes doesn't mean it's an invalid discussion...
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DME is made from LME. The "twang" is from the metal can the extract was in. I am sure you have tasted the difference between fresh pineapple and one from a can. In that example the can is blamed. It is not the extract giving the off flavor. Order extract from a place that sells it in bulk. Many places sell LME in bulk.

Forrest
 
When i first started brewing, I noticed a strange flavor in my beers. I figured it was the extract twang everyone seems to talk about. As soon as I started paying more attention to the rest of my brewing process (specifically wort cooling after the boil, and fermentation temperatures) that flavor disappeared.

I brew lighter beers, and darker beers. I only do partial boils out of necessity, and I use the late extract addition method, with LME and/or DME, and they don't have that flavor anymore.

As long as your extract is fresh and your process is sound, you can brew excellent beer with extract.
 
I'm still pretty new at this guys, so don't beat me down for putting in my 2 cents. I'm 4 batches in to home brewing and my 2nd/3rd batches were Brewer's Best kits (my first was a Mr. Beer kit years ago), one was an American IPA and the other an English Brown Ale. Both batches contained large cans of LME and smaller amounts of DME, along with steeping grains, the hops, dry Safale 04 yeast, and priming sugar. Now, I am a "by the book" kind of guy and my sanitizing routine is overkill to say the least (SWMBO thinks I'm neurotic). Both of these batches went off without a hitch (except the airlock clogged with the IPA and blew the lid off of my primary showering our laundry room with krausen, but that's another story). I was able to cool both batches in under 20 minutes to pitching temp. with an ice bath. My OG's and FG's were spot on and everything was followed to a T. Bottles were cleaned, sanitized, and rinsed. They carbed nice without problems. My fementation temps. were constant at the recommended 68 to 70 degrees. etc., etc., etc.

Both batches have the same subtle off after taste that his hard to describe, but sort of a bitter/metallic twang in the finish. The flavor is not overly offensive, but there is no doubt that there is a twang with the finish. Otherwise both beers are good, but just not great. I have had a lot of feedback about the potential causes on HBT and many people feel it is the LME out of the can. Some think that it could be from old hops and a few think that it could have been the dry yeast. I'm convinced that it was the LME or at least from the aluminum can that it was in.

I just tasted my 4 batch, which was a Gumballhead Clone and it was awesome! I used fresh DME, hops straight out of the refrigerator from the HBS, a Wyeast smack pack, and freshly milled specialty grains. This beer puts my others from the BB kits to shame. There is no hint of twang or funny after taste. It is absolutely great. I don't believe that this batch is so much better, because I am becoming a better home brewer, I truly think it has to do with fresher ingredients and not using something stored in a can or out on a shelf at the HBS for who knows how long. My 2 cents.

I will say...What a relief! I was a little discouraged when the BB beers were not perfect and was sort developing a mindset that I had to go all grain to get better beer. Thankfully, my last batch has totally changed my mind. I plan on continuing with extract brewing (fresh DME only!) for several more batches before I start exploring the all grain route. :tank:
 
Austinhomebrew said:
DME is made from LME. The "twang" is from the metal can the extract was in. I am sure you have tasted the difference between fresh pineapple and one from a can. In that example the can is blamed. It is not the extract giving the off flavor. Order extract from a place that sells it in bulk. Many places sell LME in bulk.

Forrest
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That's simply not true. While the metal can may add additional off flavors, I had "twang" issues in my first 10-12 beers, and they were all made from Midwest Supplies kits with the LME supplied in LDPE jugs. I've since switched to all grain and filtered/pH adjusted water, and that problem completely disappeared. I have a feeling that extremely alkaline water (mine was 8.9-9.6 from the tap) is the culprit. Soda kits had a similar off-flavor to them as well. I don't think people give their water enough credit for the flavor of their beers.
 
Austinhomebrew said:
DME is made from LME. The "twang" is from the metal can the extract was in. I am sure you have tasted the difference between fresh pineapple and one from a can. In that example the can is blamed. It is not the extract giving the off flavor. Order extract from a place that sells it in bulk. Many places sell LME in bulk.


I thought I read that dme was made from spraying cold wort on a hot sheet of metal? And that lme was just boiled down wort until most of the liquid was removed?
I only tasted a couple beers that had this twang. 1 made by me and a couple made by a friend. The only common thing between the 3 beers was they were partial boils. About 2.5 gallons of concentrated wort and then topped off with water after the boil. While I was still doing extract,once I started doing full boils using the same extract I never noticed the twang again.
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jmancuso said:
I only tasted a couple beers that had this twang. 1 made by me and a couple made by a friend. The only common thing between the 3 beers was they were partial boils. About 2.5 gallons of concentrated wort and then topped off with water after the boil. While I was still doing extract,once I started doing full boils using the same extract I never noticed the twang again.
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Very, very interesting to me that you posted this. I've been thinking about this a lot -- I have only 2 brews under my belt so far. One has a funny taste, and the other tastes great. The funny-tasting one I topped off with a bit of boiled tap water.

The reason I've been thinking about this is because the funny "twang" aftertaste flavor is sort of bandaid-ish or adhesive-like, which is supposedly attributable to chlorine. So I looked it my water report, and my water does have chloramine, which according to apparently common brewer's wisdom, doesn't boil off like plain chlorine. However, I talked to other local brewers (mostly all-grain) I know who use our tap water without problems, and they told me not to worry about the water, that it's probably something else. Our tap water tastes fantastic, and I know they make good beer, so if they tell me they don't specially treat their water then I would take their word for it. So I even thought for a while that it was just a "green" or "young" beer flavor that would go away (it has a little bit, but not completely).

The interesting part: a guy on another board sent me a .pdf from an article in Brewing Techniques that is essentially a research paper on chloramine removal in brewing water. They performed experiments on water with chlorine and chloramines, and tested the concentrations under different methods of removal. They measure the "half-life" of the compounds. Chlorine in standing water breaks down and goes away with a half-life measuring a handful of hours. The half-life of chloramine is something like 155 hours in standing water. So indeed, it doesn't "evaporate" off overnight like chlorine. The interesting result was from boiling. Chlorine goes away very quickly due to boiling, we know this...however, the half-life of chloramine in boiling water was 10-20 minutes. Meaning, if you boil water for 60 minutes, it will break down and dissipate most or all of the chloramine! This is contrary to what I keep reading, that chloramine doesn't evaporate or boil away (for the record, campden does it in minutes, which we do know and people often recommend). So the thing is, this strikes me a reason that people would see this flavor go away after simply switching to all-grain. Nobody does an all-grain partial-boil (if such a thing is even possible). Even if you boil your top-off water for an extract batch for 5 minutes (I, and probably most people, only boiled for a minute or two to kill anything), that's far less than the 10-20 minutes required to get rid of just half the chloramine -- leaving a significant amount still in the water. Further, it could also be why so many extract brewers never have the problems -- lots of us do full boils, lots of water systems still use chlorine instead of chloramine, some of us use bottled or spring water, etc.

This summer when I have some time, I might design an experiment to split a small batch (since half of it would likely suck, if the hypothesis is correct) -- build a recipe for a gallon batch or so, brew it up in 1/2 gallon or so of water; split that wort evenly amongst two growlers (as fermenters); top off with water prepared as follows: one growler topped off with water boiled for two minutes, the other topped off with water boiled for 60 minutes; split the same yeast packet between the two batches. This should, I think, ensure that all ingredients and conditions are the same with the only variable being the boil length of the top-off water. If both batches have a problem, it could still be the water or the extract used. If only one batch has a problem, though, that would be a pretty clear indicator in favor of chloramine involvement in light of the BT article on the half-life of the compound in boiling water. EDIT: oh, and if neither batch sucks...well, I guess I'll just go about my life pretending I never wasted the time on the stupid experiment :)
 
I've been brewing extract for 3 years now. Some of my brews do have the extract twang but I have just tried two different beers that did initially have the twang but after a couple months after kegging/bottling it was gone. So don't give up. Put it in the cellar and try it again later
 
Interesting to me that some people attribute it to the metal in the can. My 3.3lb Briess LME all comes in plastic, and I don't have a problem with extract "twang", and judges don't seem to notice anything of the sort either. I DO partial mash in a cooler, and I DO use yeast nutrient, but I do partial boils. I've used extract at the start of 90 minute boils (typically to control hops utilization), and I have also mixed it right into the fermenter.

Only thing I'd describe as "twang" was the product of crappy temp control during fermentation. But then again, everybody seems to describe twang differently and it seems clear that they're describing totally different things. Bottom line... I have no clue if such a twang exists, but when I've never tasted it in my beers, and never received feedback about any off-tastes remotely resembling "twang", I'm pretty sure it's not the LME itself. Though if you're really using extract and NOT using yeast nutrient, I really can't think of a good reason not to.
 
Gropo said:
LME..DME...doesn't matter. If you boil your entire wort, that "twang" will go away.
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I disagree. I do full boil with LME, temperature controlled ferments, and I still notice that underlying extract taste. I don't' know, maybe my twang is just bigger than your twang :ban:
 
SirBC said:
I disagree. I do full boil with LME, temperature controlled ferments, and I still notice that underlying extract taste. I don't' know, maybe my twang is just bigger than your twang :ban:
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You have to know how to use your twang. I guess I've learned how to burry my twang deeper...and push it further into the flavor profile, which brings out gushes of flavor.
 
Gropo said:
You have to know how to use your twang. I guess I've learned how to burry my twang deeper...and push it further into the flavor profile, which brings out gushes of flavor.
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Lol don't kid yourself. And good luck with burying it into a beer meant to be light, crisp, and very clean tasting, especially among the layers. I could see getting away with it in very rich ales where people often label faults as complexity, but it's very unlikely that a trained palate wouldn't notice it to be a serious problem.

Assuming, of course, that extract even IS imparting such flavors to your beer in the first place.
 
You two may want to taste each others "twang" to see what the difference is...


the_finger.gif
 
I know a few people who brew exclusively extract on the stovetop and have made competition winning beers.

I know that I have tasted a "twang" in my beers when I first started brewing, but looking back on it I would attribute it more to poor temperature control and other factors than blaming extract. Since I have become more experienced and have a much better, more consistent process I haven't had anything like that regardless of whether I made AG or extract.
 
Extract twang is a myth. The off-flavours that brews can be tainted with could be caused for a number of reasons. I too, have tasted that putrid, bitter after-taste after drinking a brew made from LME and DME. To eliminate this read and follow the subsequent bullet points (the following tips are for people storing there beer in PET bottles):

1) Use quality PET bottles and caps. If your bottle walls are too thin you will get oxygen ingress into your beer causing the above described off-taste to develop. Inspect your caps; some have a thin plastic layer that isn't attached to the cap itself. Remove this and you can sanitise these properly when it comes to bottling. Coopers brown PET bottles are recommended. I live in Norway and they plastic bottles are very robust here. I noticed that the beer stored in thin plastic bottles developed an off-taste after time and the beer in the robust, Norwegian carbonated beverage bottles stayed as a fresh as the day it was bottled.

2) Eliminate the chlorine out of your water with Campden tablets before using it for your brewing. This is a very cheap and effective way of eliminating chlorine out of your tap water.

3) Do not aerate your wort until it is below ~27oc. Aeration before this point can result in off-flavours in your beer. Be careful when mixing your kit and other sugars in your boiled water.

4) Leave you beer fermenting in the primary for at least two weeks. Throw away your hydrometer, they're pretty useless. Yes, they will tell you about the amount of sugar left in your wort, but do they really tell you when your beer is ready to be bottled? Absolutely not. Give your beer a taste after two to three weeks in your primary and taste the difference.

5) Get your brewing temperature right. Ales - 20oc and lagers -14 oc (obviously, this is generalised advice, I'm assuming you're using a Coopers kit)

6) Do not aerate beer when syphoning it out into your bottles. Be very careful, like a surgeon almost, to ensure that the beer has a smooth transition from the primary to the bottles. Purchase a bottle aid to ensure beer is moved around as less as possible when bottling. Fill almost to the brim to reduce the amount of oxygen in the beer. About a cm or two is ideal (do not follow this advice with glass bottles).

7) And of course, sanitisation is key to clean tasting beer.

Don't jump ship to AG before trying these tips. I myself have drunk litres upon litres of beer that tastes nice in the mouth but then 'twangs' the back of the mouth once swallowed. After analysing my technique and doing research I know brew beer from Coopers beer kits that is fantastic.
 
Hydrometers are not useless at all. They are the only way to KNOW when fermentation is over. Guessing on the amount of time in primary doesn't cut it ime. But,after 3-5 days in primary after a stable FG is reached will allow it to clean up & settle out more. Beyond that,a shot glass & small samples will tell you when it's ready to prime & bottle. I start doing that when a stable FG is reached to see when it's done "cleaning up".
 
Yeh, right--people accept all kinda "professional"..."stuff"...the ordinary man, not full of himself and others can get along quite nicely with the basic knowledge and common sense...

Semper Watching!
*****
 
The throw out the hydromete comment is a bit absurd. Not even just for telling when one's beer has reached full attentuation or if a fermentation has stalled, but I like to KNOW what my beers actual ABV is and you aren't going to know that without your OG and FG. Of course it won't make your beer better or worse, but it gives information a lot of people like to know. I for one sure do.

I also found the comment about switching to AG as "jumping ship" a bit odd. If someone wants to switch to AG what's the problem? I'm going to be trying my hand at AG soon. I've loved my extract beers and they are fantastic, most of them I think even better than many commercial counterparts. I have no "extract twang" in my brews that I know of, but my reasoning is for far more options and tweaking, less cost per batch, probably better overall beers, and to not have to deal with whisking in sticky powders and syrups.

I'd probably still do some extracts here and there, and I'm wondering how long it will take me to match my extract Belgian Wit with AG, but I can't see extract as being some camp of people that are being abandoned.


Rev.
 
Personally, I have no problem with neither that poster nor his opinion.a
He's entitled, and I saw no hostility toward the opinions of others, although tht is quite common online. But many here might not have noticed that.
 
gunnyg said:
Personally, I have no problem with neither that poster nor his opinion.a
He's entitled, and I saw no hostility toward the opinions of others
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Who's accusing him of being hostile? I don't see that anywhere. :confused:


Rev.
 
I wasn't being hostile at all. Just stating the facts as I currently see them. But it did seem off that it was said to throw the hydrometer away as useless. Not an accurate statement. So chill out a lil there,gunny. Just passing along info...imo sort of thing from my own experiences.
 
Hey, everybody! I just came across this thread, and I felt I gotta add my two cents. I've been brewing for about 22 years, all extract, except for the last three batches. I've never tasted anything I can describe as a "twang". I did have one infection, but comparing my extract and AG experiences, I don't notice all that much difference.
 
I have had some experience with extract brewing and i have found using a better yeast and controling ferment temps make all the difference. i started using Nottingham yeast and the beer came out cleaner and no twang, I never use the packages that come with kits or that are super cheap at HBS, pay the extra few bucks for the good stuff
 
Yep!
Some just can't allow for such opinions, though.

So much for that elusive imaginary..."twang"!
Just Plain Dick
*****

;)
uh-huh!
*****
 
I've been using Cooper's ale yeast. Very temp forgiving,attenuates & flocculates quite well when re-hydrated. Even works well in starters for me. I can get very clear beers with it that get down to low FG's too. The lowest I've gotten it was 1.009FG with my English bitter. I can take 1.050 pale ales down to 1.010 with it. And that's just re-hydrating one 7g sachet.
But I've never used the Munton's dry yeast. I have seen on here that it seems to stall out a lot,or just not attenuate very well.
The Safale US-05 was a darn good one. Quite clean as compared to the cooper's,which can produce fruity esters at lower temps by comparison.
I've also noticed that Midwest has the Cooper's ale yeast in 15g packets. I may just try that in my next Burton Ale instead of 4 of the 7g packets.
 
Oh God, this thread has been resurrected. Some people taste it some don't. Obviously taste is subjective and perceptions of taste are even more subjective. So let it die already instead of jumping up and down crying, "I haven't tasted it, so its a myth" or "I have tasted it, so its real." For the love of all things good, let this ridiculous thread die. Sure, I tasted it... that doesn't make it any more or less real than Gunny who hasn't tasted it. SO PLEASE let it go already.
 
BigB said:
So let it die already instead of jumping up and down crying, "I haven't tasted it, so its a myth" or "I have tasted it, so its real." For the love of all things good, let this ridiculous thread die.
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Maybe you should consider taking a break from the forum, or the internet as a whole for a short while. This is a forum, these types of threads will ALWAYS occur. There will ALWAYS be threads on:

Extract twang
Fly sparge vs. Batch sparge
IC Chiller vs. Plate Chiller
xxx Brew Kettle vs. xxx Brew kettle
AG makes superior beers compared to extract
Is my beer infected??
Did I just ruin my beer??
Is StarSan foam ok?
Does one Wyeast pack provide a proper pitch rate for xxx?
My airlock isn't bubbling!!!

I could go on and on and on. Why not just shut the forum down?

Relax man. If these threads annoy you so much just don't read them! I never understood how if such a thread bothers someone their first idea is to post in it telling of their frustration. I simply bypass threads I'm sick of repeating myself in. Cheers man, not trying to offend you, just reeeelax and have a homebrew or something :mug:


Rev.
 
Rev2010 said:
Maybe you should consider taking a break from the forum, or the internet as a whole for a short while. This is a forum, these types of threads will ALWAYS occur. There will ALWAYS be threads on:

Extract twang
Fly sparge vs. Batch sparge
IC Chiller vs. Plate Chiller
xxx Brew Kettle vs. xxx Brew kettle
AG makes superior beers compared to extract
Is my beer infected??
Did I just ruin my beer??
Is StarSan foam ok?
Does one Wyeast pack provide a proper pitch rate for xxx?
My airlock isn't bubbling!!!

I could go on and on and on. Why not just shut the forum down?

Relax man. If these threads annoy you so much just don't read them! I never understood how if such a thread bothers someone their first idea is to post in it telling of their frustration. I simply bypass threads I'm sick of repeating myself in. Cheers man, not trying to offend you, just reeeelax and have a homebrew or something :mug:


Rev.
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LOL, You are right... When I typed that I was at work and was having one of those days.... I really needed a homebrew at that point. About 30 minutes later, I talked my boss into cracking open some Fat Tire Amber ales he had stored in the office fridge. After that life was good again.:tank:

EDIT: Oh, and I remembered the "Unsubscribe" link!
 
BigB said:
LOL, You are right... When I typed that I was at work and was having one of those days.... I really needed a homebrew at that point. About 30 minutes later, I talked my boss into cracking open some Fat Tire Amber ales he had stored in the office fridge. After that life was good again.:tank:

EDIT: Oh, and I remembered the "Unsubscribe" link!
Click to expand...

Wow, I have to give you kudos! You're awesome man :mug: Most people would come back with an attitude, even though I wasn't trying to be rude, but you're totally cool. Cheers man :tank:


Rev.
 
unionrdr said:
Hydrometers are not useless at all. They are the only way to KNOW when fermentation is over. Guessing on the amount of time in primary doesn't cut it ime. But,after 3-5 days in primary after a stable FG is reached will allow it to clean up & settle out more. Beyond that,a shot glass & small samples will tell you when it's ready to prime & bottle. I start doing that when a stable FG is reached to see when it's done "cleaning up".
Click to expand...

I didn't advocate guessing the time in the primary. If you read it carefully you would've read that I advocate tasting it to see when it's finished. And I think you implied that I like to cut time. Absolutely not, I'm arguing the point of leaving it in the primary for weeks after the initial fermentation has 'stopped'. You've disregarded my comments and then repeated what I've said.
 

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