The Extract "twang" - what is it?

[manticle]

Obviously replying to a resurrected old thread.

The thing I notice now with extract beers is not what I would describe as a twang. Twang reminds me of something sharp like vinegar. What I notice is a lack of complexity (specifically grain complexity). It's less obvious in darker beers. Sometimes there is a sweetness and cloying characteristic. When I made extracts they struggled to finish below 1020 which I put down (going purely on what I've been told rather than being expert) to differing Free Amino Nitrogen levels between grain and extract. That would explain the sweetness. Contrary to malt purists' dogma, adding a touch of dextrose judiciously to your brew can make a difference here.

 

[jaynik]

I agree that "syrupy" and "twang" are distinctly different adjectives. I have described a "twang" in my beers (all are extract) which I can most closely guess is from yeast and the unfiltered nature of home brew. It is more that bite on your tongue (i.e. vinegar) type flavor. I think the internet myth part is true in that people are using the adjective to describe different flavors.

 

[Orfy]

I have feeling it's relating to using poor quality or "stale" extract.
I've made some very good extract brews from quality kits.

It'd be interesting to take AG wort. Brew 50% as normal and boil the remaining 50% down to a syrup then treat as LME and compare the resulting beers.

 

[manticle]

I caramelise (to a thick syrup) some of my wort for some beers (mainly a robust porter recipe of mine). It's nowhere near 50% (around 3 litres in a 22 litre batch) but I'd describe it as delicious rather than twangy.

I think the stale extract explanation is probably the best, followed by yeast health. Most of the kits we get here have 7g of yeast which is stored under the lid of the kit. I'm not sure though - while I've tasted (and made) some less than ordinary kit and extract beers I'm not familiar with the twang.

 

[BigB]

I too only taste the "twang" when using LME. The odd thing is that my LHBS is extremely busy and moves a lot of product, but they do not sell fresh LME... I think they simply do not have enough space in thier building. The only LME they sell is the canned crap (both the plastic Breiss and the metal Coopers or Muntons, or whatever). At any rate, I digress... I switched to using exclusively DME and the twang was gone.

 

[h4rdluck]

This is an absolute myth. I've been brewing some time and have no idea what this twangy taste is....The only weird tastes I've ever gotten are from poor hop balance, weird spice ingredients I was playing around with, or the infected batch I got from using Wild Berries...that even though I pasteurized still managed to get infected (Probably some damn stem leftover or something.

I could see getting an off taste from using a pre-hopped LME and boiling it for an hour though possibly. Maybe that is what is happening to people...

If your gunna add a LME thats pre-hopped you should probably add it 5 minutes before the boil is over...I hate pre-hopped LME. that crap is the devil.

 

[Orfy]

Not sure how you can say it's a myth based totally on your own experience.
Others have stated they have tasted it.

 

[Haputanlas]

I don't have the space/time to do AG

Have you checked out DeathBrewer's Brew in a Bag technique?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Extract twang does exist. However, most of the time (IME) it is not twang but poor process. Often extract brewers do not have quality equipment and do not follow the best brewing practices. Poor aeration, partial boils, under-pitching yeast, suspect sanitation, combined with a slew of other potential problems, then fermenting without temp control.

These things often contribute to problems with extract brews.

Beyond all that, I have experienced extract twang using kits I have brewed with friends. I never buy kits and only brew extract with fresh, high turn over, extra light DME and using steeped grains for my malt profile.

Case in point, I have a keg of Orfy's mild on tap right now that was brewed with DME and it is awesome. No twang at all.

 

[BrewSpook]

BK - I think the majority of this post was about the twang associated with LME, not DME.

While I agree that alot of the off flavors can be associated to poor brewing practices, I know I have had several LME batches have a similar flavor no matter what the style is, and after doing the same batches all grain or with DME that flavor is gone. All things being equal I have not had the pleasure of a real fresh batch of LME, but I would guess this is something that is acquired during the process of making LME.

I dont think I will ever go back to LME given the option.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Yes, the kits I was talking about were LME. I have also used fresh LME and had no problems. If you have a good local store, they should sell their LME out of bulk and if they are doing a lot of business, that vat turns over quickly (I was told a week or less).

I prefer to use DME anyway though, even if the LME is fresh.

 

[h4rdluck]

Well I can only re-iterate my stance if in fact "Extract Twang" is a lack of following basic principles its not the "Extract" causing the twang. Anyone can make crappy beer if you don't follow basic rules extract OR AG... So again Extract twang is still a myth in my book. And the fact that many are blaming it on inexperience and not following the rules only strengthens my argument...

imo that is.

 

[jaynik]

As luck would have it, I went to my LHBS to buy the stuff for a blond, and they were fresh out of the LME I needed, so they subbed for DME at the same price. I'll now get a chance to brew the same beer and see if my results are different!

 

[jmancuso]

What is the latest into the boil you can add extract (liquid or dry)?

 

[ChshreCat]

In some of my recipes, I add LME at flameout. It's already been boiled once, so all you have to do is heat it up to make sure it's sanitary. And that's even debatable, IMO. We're talking about concentrated wort here. If there was anything living in it, you'd probably know about it as soon as you opened it up. But better safe than sorry... might as well at least get it hot.

 

[brett]

I have feeling it's relating to using poor quality or "stale" extract.
I've made some very good extract brews from quality kits.

I'm convinced this is the case. I have made many batches, AG, PM, and extract, using both DME and LME. I have found that if you use LME, it needs to be fresh.

A very concentrated boil seems to be connected also. DME is great, and I use it, but LME is not the enemy. Stale LME is the enemy.

 

[jrc]

After reading this thread (and hundreds of others on this site and others), my question is whether it is worthwhile jumping straight to all grain brewing for a beginner if the money is there to buy the proper equipment/supplies? I've brewed a couple of kits with friends in the past few years, and recently stumbled across some Russian River Pliny clone recipes while reading IPA reviews for a beer bet I'm putting together with a friend. The clone recipes are all grain recipes, and I have been looking into spending the money and goodwill my wife is willing to put toward my birthday toward buying the basic equip/ingredients needed for the clone recipe. Is there any reason (other than the obvious financial/time commitments) not to jump straight into all grain, brewing as opposed to first going through an extract brewing period? This seems especially feasible for me based on the Deathbrewer article on stovetop, all grain brewing in a bag. Now, after reading about extract "twang" or even the possibility of it (I don't recall our beer having a "twang" when brewing with a kit that included extract, but I was also just happy to have homebrewed beer), it seems like even a better choice to go straight for all grain. Any reason not to?

 

[rayg]

After reading this thread (and hundreds of others on this site and others), my question is whether it is worthwhile jumping straight to all grain brewing for a beginner if the money is there to buy the proper equipment/supplies? I've brewed a couple of kits with friends in the past few years, and recently stumbled across some Russian River Pliny clone recipes while reading IPA reviews for a beer bet I'm putting together with a friend. The clone recipes are all grain recipes, and I have been looking into spending the money and goodwill my wife is willing to put toward my birthday toward buying the basic equip/ingredients needed for the clone recipe. Is there any reason (other than the obvious financial/time commitments) not to jump straight into all grain, brewing as opposed to first going through an extract brewing period? This seems especially feasible for me based on the Deathbrewer article on stovetop, all grain brewing in a bag. Now, after reading about extract "twang" or even the possibility of it (I don't recall our beer having a "twang" when brewing with a kit that included extract, but I was also just happy to have homebrewed beer), it seems like even a better choice to go straight for all grain. Any reason not to?

You can always go back to extract if you have poor results with
AG, not so the other way around. But AG introduces a whole other
set of variables that can go wrong, one of the more common problems
I had was astringency. You are going to have to control water
chemistry and temps carefully with AG to avoid that kind of problem.
I don't think the chance of extract "twang" is more worrisome
than astringency with AG, but I never had any problem with any
of the extracts I used once I had learned to pitch starters and
control temps.

Ray

 

[rexbanner]

After reading this thread (and hundreds of others on this site and others), my question is whether it is worthwhile jumping straight to all grain brewing for a beginner if the money is there to buy the proper equipment/supplies? I've brewed a couple of kits with friends in the past few years, and recently stumbled across some Russian River Pliny clone recipes while reading IPA reviews for a beer bet I'm putting together with a friend. The clone recipes are all grain recipes, and I have been looking into spending the money and goodwill my wife is willing to put toward my birthday toward buying the basic equip/ingredients needed for the clone recipe. Is there any reason (other than the obvious financial/time commitments) not to jump straight into all grain, brewing as opposed to first going through an extract brewing period? This seems especially feasible for me based on the Deathbrewer article on stovetop, all grain brewing in a bag. Now, after reading about extract "twang" or even the possibility of it (I don't recall our beer having a "twang" when brewing with a kit that included extract, but I was also just happy to have homebrewed beer), it seems like even a better choice to go straight for all grain. Any reason not to?

I just brewed my second batch using his stovetop method and here's MY (keyword MY, not anyone else's) opinion.

AG brewing on the stovetop is a pain in the ass. It's produced my best beer yet, but it adds over an hour on to an already long process, and that hour involves work. Getting the grain and water into that pot sucks. It takes forever to stir up the grains. It's easy for water to overflow, or for wort to drip, and it just makes a mess overall. I have not had much luck maintaining a steady temp. It's difficult to take accurate hydrometer readings due to the suspended particles that slip through the bag.

That being said, most of that's due to me being a noob and not preparing and working out all the little bumps yet. I love his method for giving me the confidence to try AG brewing, but I will be constructing my own cooler mash tun ASAP, because I feel its worth it.

I have never experienced extract twang. I believe that as long as you sanitize, follow directions, and keep fermentation temp at proper range, barring acts of God, you will have a decent beer. The only batch I've ever had that sucked was due to my dad shutting the AC off each day without my knowledge.

If you're confident, go straight into AG. I do both, and use extract brews to experiment, and AG to make beers I know will kick ass.

 

[ChshreCat]

I just brewed my second batch using his stovetop method and here's MY (keyword MY, not anyone else's) opinion.

AG brewing on the stovetop is a pain in the ass. It's produced my best beer yet, but it adds over an hour on to an already long process, and that hour involves work. Getting the grain and water into that pot sucks. It takes forever to stir up the grains. It's easy for water to overflow, or for wort to drip, and it just makes a mess overall. I have not had much luck maintaining a steady temp. It's difficult to take accurate hydrometer readings due to the suspended particles that slip through the bag.

That being said, most of that's due to me being a noob and not preparing and working out all the little bumps yet. I love his method for giving me the confidence to try AG brewing, but I will be constructing my own cooler mash tun ASAP, because I feel its worth it.

I have never experienced extract twang. I believe that as long as you sanitize, follow directions, and keep fermentation temp at proper range, barring acts of God, you will have a decent beer. The only batch I've ever had that sucked was due to my dad shutting the AC off each day without my knowledge.

If you're confident, go straight into AG. I do both, and use extract brews to experiment, and AG to make beers I know will kick ass.

I don't do AG yet, but I've done some pretty big partial mashes and moved from doing it a pot to a converted cooler. I can state without any hesitation that the cooler is WAY easier to deal with than a pot on the stove. It can take some work to get your mash temp right, but beyond that it's a lot easier.

 

[Beernik]

I did an AG on my stove using a cooler to do the mash without any significant issues. It increased my brew day by 2 hours though. In a couple weeks I'm considering attempting a decoction mash. That might be a bit tougher on the range.

 

[Pivzavod]

I also think a lot of it has to do with the quality of the extract. I did 95% of my extract brewing with extract from morebeer.com. When I went to my “local” supply store (an hour drive in each direction); I used the standard “can” LME – and was astounded by the results. For the first time ever; I actually tasted the “twang”. Note the twang beer was also a partial all grain …. Which I believe supports my thesis even better.

Essentially; fresh extract = great. Old / canned extract = I will never touch again. Obviously, I didn’t run any numbers and my sample size (n=1) is very small. But its enough to changer my habits …. And now I am an AG brewer.

I agree. Bought 4 kits of French Petite Saison from NB last year and kept them for a few months. I am fermenting the very last one right now and I've noticed twanginess at its fullest. Age of LME is key in twang taste in your home brewing. Case closed

 

[rayg]

There are about a million things that can cause an off taste
in homebrew, and I think this "twang" that people claim to
taste is probably due to something else. I brewed many light
extract beers, using old, new and mixed batches using
various brands and types (ale, lager) of light liquid extract,
and I have never noticed a thing. I think the only possible
problem it could cause is if you are trying to brew some
super light ale, and some old DME may be too dark. But the
off flavor should be of caramelized malt, because aged
malt extract is essentially "cooked" slowly and there are
therefore more melanoidins in it.

Ray

 

[AlterCow]

This is an absolute myth. I've been brewing some time and have no idea what this twangy taste is....The only weird tastes I've ever gotten are from poor hop balance, weird spice ingredients I was playing around with, or the infected batch I got from using Wild Berries...that even though I pasteurized still managed to get infected (Probably some damn stem leftover or something.

I could see getting an off taste from using a pre-hopped LME and boiling it for an hour though possibly. Maybe that is what is happening to people...

If your gunna add a LME thats pre-hopped you should probably add it 5 minutes before the boil is over...I hate pre-hopped LME. that crap is the devil.

Then I must be living in a fantasy world because it is quite real to me. Even the Unicorn Bob and the God Thor agree with me.

This has been a great thread and there is a lot to consider. I am particularly interested in partial boils vs full boils and DME vs LME. SO far I have been doing partial boils with LME. I could use the step up to an 8gal pot to do a full boil and make use of my newly acquired bulk DME's.

 

[h4rdluck]

well i'd certainly give us an update after you try your new DME! Hopefully this expunges your twang effect. If so I'd become even more leary of LME. I only used that stuff on my first batch. It was good. That was all. And frankly I just never saw syrup as being better than powered.

There does seem to be something going on with LME...but whether its an age issue, a storage issue, brand issue, or pre-hopped issue, or just plain should never be used issue. I don't know. But I'll stick with my DME because its never been a problem for anyone so far as I know.

 

[rayg]

I agree. Bought 4 kits of French Petite Saison from NB last year and kept them for a few months. I am fermenting the very last one right now and I've noticed twanginess at its fullest. Age of LME is key in twang taste in your home brewing. Case closed

Double-blind taste test, anyone?

Ray

 

[ChshreCat]

Some time when I feel like wasting the time and money to do an experiment, I'll brew one of my recipes using fresh bulk LME and then rebrew it using a dusty can and see if any twang shows up in the second batch. It certainly hasn't bee appearing in my brews with fresh LME.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Just think of fresh pineapple versus pineapple from a can. Which one has a twang? Is it the pineapple's fault? It is the can.

Forrest

 

[brewagentjay]

Just think of fresh pineapple versus pineapple from a can. Which one has a twang? Is it the pineapple's fault? It is the can.

Forrest

"Sure I can learn alot about a steak by sticking my head up a bulls a$$ but in this case I'll take the butchers word for...."

They sell the stuff so they should know what the issue would be...:rockin:

 

[Nugent]

Just think of fresh pineapple versus pineapple from a can. Which one has a twang? Is it the pineapple's fault? It is the can.

Forrest

+1. Found a bottle of extract IPA in the fridge (ca. 6 mo. old) and compared it to the same IPA recipe, but all-grain, that a friend brewed. Both were certainly IPAs, but the difference was a thinness in the extract brew (presumably partially caused by age-induced hoppiness decline), plus, more importantly to this discussion, the extract IPA had that twang.

It was hard to describe, but I knew that quality exactly the minute I tasted it. The extract brew was made with LME, so ...

I'm not wanting, in any way, to sound like a nose-up, 'all-grain is god' d-bag, (I have made a quite a few AG beers that sucked a**) but that twang is not something that I have specifically noticed in any all-grain beers that I have brewed. Oh yeah, don't worry. There are a whole array of new weird flavours that come out when brewing all-grain.

Would love to know what the twang is, though. Awesome thread.