The Extract "twang" - what is it?

[edw6buffalo]

I have had some experience with extract brewing and i have found using a better yeast and controling ferment temps make all the difference. i started using Nottingham yeast and the beer came out cleaner and no twang, I never use the packages that come with kits or that are super cheap at HBS, pay the extra few bucks for the good stuff

 

[gunnyg]

Yep!
Some just can't allow for such opinions, though.

So much for that elusive imaginary..."twang"!
Just Plain Dick
*****


uh-huh!
*****

 

[unionrdr]

I've been using Cooper's ale yeast. Very temp forgiving,attenuates & flocculates quite well when re-hydrated. Even works well in starters for me. I can get very clear beers with it that get down to low FG's too. The lowest I've gotten it was 1.009FG with my English bitter. I can take 1.050 pale ales down to 1.010 with it. And that's just re-hydrating one 7g sachet.
But I've never used the Munton's dry yeast. I have seen on here that it seems to stall out a lot,or just not attenuate very well.
The Safale US-05 was a darn good one. Quite clean as compared to the cooper's,which can produce fruity esters at lower temps by comparison.
I've also noticed that Midwest has the Cooper's ale yeast in 15g packets. I may just try that in my next Burton Ale instead of 4 of the 7g packets.

 

[BigB]

Oh God, this thread has been resurrected. Some people taste it some don't. Obviously taste is subjective and perceptions of taste are even more subjective. So let it die already instead of jumping up and down crying, "I haven't tasted it, so its a myth" or "I have tasted it, so its real." For the love of all things good, let this ridiculous thread die. Sure, I tasted it... that doesn't make it any more or less real than Gunny who hasn't tasted it. SO PLEASE let it go already.

 

[unionrdr]

Aaaaw,we never gidda have any fun....

 

[Rev2010]

So let it die already instead of jumping up and down crying, "I haven't tasted it, so its a myth" or "I have tasted it, so its real." For the love of all things good, let this ridiculous thread die.

Maybe you should consider taking a break from the forum, or the internet as a whole for a short while. This is a forum, these types of threads will ALWAYS occur. There will ALWAYS be threads on:

Extract twang
Fly sparge vs. Batch sparge
IC Chiller vs. Plate Chiller
xxx Brew Kettle vs. xxx Brew kettle
AG makes superior beers compared to extract
Is my beer infected??
Did I just ruin my beer??
Is StarSan foam ok?
Does one Wyeast pack provide a proper pitch rate for xxx?
My airlock isn't bubbling!!!

I could go on and on and on. Why not just shut the forum down?

Relax man. If these threads annoy you so much just don't read them! I never understood how if such a thread bothers someone their first idea is to post in it telling of their frustration. I simply bypass threads I'm sick of repeating myself in. Cheers man, not trying to offend you, just reeeelax and have a homebrew or something


Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

I've been using Cooper's ale yeast.

Just curious, have you tried liquid yeasts yet?


Rev.

 

[BigB]

Maybe you should consider taking a break from the forum, or the internet as a whole for a short while. This is a forum, these types of threads will ALWAYS occur. There will ALWAYS be threads on:

Extract twang
Fly sparge vs. Batch sparge
IC Chiller vs. Plate Chiller
xxx Brew Kettle vs. xxx Brew kettle
AG makes superior beers compared to extract
Is my beer infected??
Did I just ruin my beer??
Is StarSan foam ok?
Does one Wyeast pack provide a proper pitch rate for xxx?
My airlock isn't bubbling!!!

I could go on and on and on. Why not just shut the forum down?

Relax man. If these threads annoy you so much just don't read them! I never understood how if such a thread bothers someone their first idea is to post in it telling of their frustration. I simply bypass threads I'm sick of repeating myself in. Cheers man, not trying to offend you, just reeeelax and have a homebrew or something


Rev.

LOL, You are right... When I typed that I was at work and was having one of those days.... I really needed a homebrew at that point. About 30 minutes later, I talked my boss into cracking open some Fat Tire Amber ales he had stored in the office fridge. After that life was good again.

EDIT: Oh, and I remembered the "Unsubscribe" link!

 

[Rev2010]

LOL, You are right... When I typed that I was at work and was having one of those days.... I really needed a homebrew at that point. About 30 minutes later, I talked my boss into cracking open some Fat Tire Amber ales he had stored in the office fridge. After that life was good again.

EDIT: Oh, and I remembered the "Unsubscribe" link!

Wow, I have to give you kudos! You're awesome man Most people would come back with an attitude, even though I wasn't trying to be rude, but you're totally cool. Cheers man


Rev.

 

[Homebrewtruth]

Hydrometers are not useless at all. They are the only way to KNOW when fermentation is over. Guessing on the amount of time in primary doesn't cut it ime. But,after 3-5 days in primary after a stable FG is reached will allow it to clean up & settle out more. Beyond that,a shot glass & small samples will tell you when it's ready to prime & bottle. I start doing that when a stable FG is reached to see when it's done "cleaning up".

I didn't advocate guessing the time in the primary. If you read it carefully you would've read that I advocate tasting it to see when it's finished. And I think you implied that I like to cut time. Absolutely not, I'm arguing the point of leaving it in the primary for weeks after the initial fermentation has 'stopped'. You've disregarded my comments and then repeated what I've said.

 

[Homebrewtruth]

Oh God, this thread has been resurrected. Some people taste it some don't. Obviously taste is subjective and perceptions of taste are even more subjective. So let it die already instead of jumping up and down crying, "I haven't tasted it, so its a myth" or "I have tasted it, so its real." For the love of all things good, let this ridiculous thread die. Sure, I tasted it... that doesn't make it any more or less real than Gunny who hasn't tasted it. SO PLEASE let it go already.

It reads like the only one jumping up and down crying is you my friend. Slappet av.

 

[dregus]

This discussion is interesting to me because I never made the connection between LME and DME. I used to brew only extract and I used either depending on what was available. When I had my friends try my beer they always loved it (because it was free) but they always talked about an "twang" in most of the beers. When I moved to AG two years ago it was gone.

I never made the connection between LME and DME but now I have gone back through my journals and all the better extract beers that friends liked were LME.

I am sold.

 

[Homebrewtruth]

The throw out the hydromete comment is a bit absurd. Not even just for telling when one's beer has reached full attentuation or if a fermentation has stalled, but I like to KNOW what my beers actual ABV is and you aren't going to know that without your OG and FG. Of course it won't make your beer better or worse, but it gives information a lot of people like to know. I for one sure do.

I also found the comment about switching to AG as "jumping ship" a bit odd. If someone wants to switch to AG what's the problem? I'm going to be trying my hand at AG soon. I've loved my extract beers and they are fantastic, most of them I think even better than many commercial counterparts. I have no "extract twang" in my brews that I know of, but my reasoning is for far more options and tweaking, less cost per batch, probably better overall beers, and to not have to deal with whisking in sticky powders and syrups.

I'd probably still do some extracts here and there, and I'm wondering how long it will take me to match my extract Belgian Wit with AG, but I can't see extract as being some camp of people that are being abandoned.


Rev.

All I meant by the 'jumping ship' comment is that a lot of people brew a few extract beers that taste unpleasant and then decide it's because of this 'extract twang' they've been reading about on this very forum. A lot of these beginners subsequently buy the equipment for AG and then find that their beer still tastes the same. I've read it on here on numerous occasions. Of course, you going AG will most probably be a positive thing in regards to the quality of your home brew - because you have the basics right. In short, changing method to AG (jumping ship) will not solve the problem many people are experiencing with extract brewing.

 

[cosmo]

I don't really care if this is a myth or not. I just want to find a way to make it dissapear. I have been brewing extract and partial mash for about 4 years. and had the twang on every batch with the exception of one or two in the beginning when I didn't know what the hell I was doing and didn't take any notes. Every one of the last 100+ batches had the twang. I have been avoiding going all-grain due to space considerations. I finally broke down and did an all-grain batch about a month ago and OMG what a difference! It went from barely drinkable to F***ing fantastic!!!! No more twang. I would still like to figure out how to make great extract beer since it is much more convenient for me. Believe me, I have tried everything; LME, DME, different suppliers, late extract addition, impecable sanitation, large starters on stirplate, fermentation temperature control, dozens of different types of yeast, dry and liquid yeast, aeration, pure O2, secondaries, no secondaries, long primaries, long conditioning, etc., etc. I'm about out of ideas.

Has anyone that actually had this problem solved it (without going all grain)?

 

[Rev2010]

Have you tried different water too? There's a possibility the combined mineral content from your water paired with the minerals from the extract producers water is causing this.

If you have and still find this twang then it's simply a factor of extract that you can perceive, even if some others can't.


Rev.

 

[unionrdr]

oooh boy,...I've tried so many ways to say it,I'm running out. Yes,good water is important,not to mention the most important-a good process that works for you. Not using too much,if any added sugar def helps. I switched to adding DME's to the boil,LME's at flame out. High flocculation/attenuating yeast. Keeping initial fermentation temps within the yeast's preferred range is tantamount to good,clean beer flavors. Watch how much bittering is used to style. Hop bursting gives great flavors. Using enough malt extract(s) to maintain a good balance & mouth feel are important as well. Particularly in light pale ales,less room for off flavors to hide. So good practices are paramount here. I guess that's about all I can think of atm. My head's startin to hurt... ...must...get...beer...anylize errrroooorrr....eeerrrrooorrrr...!!

 

[cosmo]

Yep tried all that. Thanks for posting the suggestions though. I actually tried tap water, reverse osmosis, bottled spring water, and bottled distilled water. I even got my tap water tested by Ward Labs and it's fine. Didn't notice any difference with any of the waters. After the stellar results on the all grain batch (tap water) I went ahead and ordered ingredients for a few more all grain batches. But I'm not giving up on extract. Maybe it is the full boil that got rid of the twang. I don't know. I don't mind the mashing, it's the full boil that's a PITA. I have a small stove and it's over 95F outside for 9 months out of the year in FL. Massive amounts off bugs too. Any other suggestions/experiences welcome. I have scoured the boards and have not found one instance where someone actually had the twang and got rid of it without going to all-grain or full boils.

 

[unionrdr]

I got some of that on my first one. Then started developing the things I've mentioned,it's gone & that's it. I now concentrate on better flavors & aromas while I try to figure out how to afford low hassle temp control. That's a big one.

 

[ChshreCat]

Cosmo,

What kind of extract are you using? I don't mean light, dark, etc. Is it canned? Bulk? What kind of container does it come in?

I find that the biggest wildcard when you use extract is the freshness of the extract. If it's old and stale (and you don't control that all the time... it can be old when it leaves the brew shop) it's going to more likely taste bad.

I get my extract from bulk barrels at my LHBS that I know only last a couple days, at most, before they're empty and a fresh one is opened.

 

[unionrdr]

Also,not darkening/caramelizing LME in the boil. DME used in the boil comes out cleaner,so that's another reason I don't get any twang anymore. LME goes in at flame out. Cleaner,lighter colored beer is the result.

 

[rhamilton]

Also,not darkening/caramelizing LME in the boil. DME used in the boil comes out cleaner,so that's another reason I don't get any twang anymore. LME goes in at flame out. Cleaner,lighter colored beer is the result.

+100.

My first few batches have that 'twang' where I boiled the LME for 60-90 minutes. Now I do maybe 5%-10% of the LME for the full boil time and the rest goes in at flame out. Greatly improved the flavor.

 

[cosmo]

As far as extract, I've used dry and liquid. I mostly do about a pound in the boil and the rest at flameout. That makes the beer lighter for sure, but I havn't noticed a difference in the twang flavor. I used to get my extract from LHBS, plastic Briess jars. I mostly get my LME and DME from Brewmaster's warehouse. I have also tried Northern Brewer a few times. Just to be clear, the twang flavor I'm talking about is kind of a sharp tart flavor like asparin or wine that was left open all night on the counter. I get it just as much from a porter as I do from a Kolsch. Like I said, I did one all grain batch and it had no twang. The difference was huge.

 

[EarthBound]

You have to know how to use your twang. I guess I've learned how to burry my twang deeper...and push it further into the flavor profile, which brings out gushes of flavor.

Sig worthy!

 

[AleFred]

As far as extract, I've used dry and liquid. I mostly do about a pound in the boil and the rest at flameout. That makes the beer lighter for sure, but I havn't noticed a difference in the twang flavor. I used to get my extract from LHBS, plastic Briess jars. I mostly get my LME and DME from Brewmaster's warehouse. I have also tried Northern Brewer a few times. Just to be clear, the twang flavor I'm talking about is kind of a sharp tart flavor like asparin or wine that was left open all night on the counter. I get it just as much from a porter as I do from a Kolsch. Like I said, I did one all grain batch and it had no twang. The difference was huge.

this is the exact reason i move to ag as well.. all though i'd like to dry a extract brew again with just dme and see how it turns out

 

[unionrdr]

I still say it's some minor fault in the brewing process at the vary least. You just don't get that twang merely because of it's being malt extract. It's likely boiling to hard for too long that's doing it. The grain process may likely be able to take the heat longer making malt out of them.
Putting malt through that a 2nd time seems to be stressing it,particularly with LME.

 

[Homebrewtruth]

I still say it's some minor fault in the brewing process at the vary least. You just don't get that twang merely because of it's being malt extract. It's likely boiling to hard for too long that's doing it. The grain process may likely be able to take the heat longer making malt out of them.
Putting malt through that a 2nd time seems to be stressing it,particularly with LME.

Well put, a lot of people seem to be writing about boiling the LME before brewing. This seems crazy to me, and completely unnecessary.

 

[unionrdr]

Thanx,took quite some time to put my thoughts on the subject into words. I use DME in the boil & LME at the end. Problem gone.

 

[pjcampbell]

Hi - Why do so many recipes use majority LME if there are the issues with LME?

Is there any reason not to do an all DME recipe?

 

[unionrdr]

No reason at all not do an all DME recipe. I just happen to like the aroma/flavor/color qualities I get from combining both. I guess many give LME in their recipe kits because it's cheaper?

 

[cosmo]

I have done many all DME batches and I don't see a difference between LME and DME as far as the twang flavor. Maybe there is something in the process that is causing the twang. The only process change I made when going to all-grain was a full boil. Everything else was exacly the same after that. I have not done an extract full boil. I don't see how that could make a difference compared to adding most of the extract at flame out, but I'm willing to try just to eliminate it as a possibility. Anyone else have experience with extract full boils and it's effect on twang?