Homebrewtruth
Active Member
It reads like the only one jumping up and down crying is you my friend. Slappet av.
The Extract "twang" - what is it?
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It reads like the only one jumping up and down crying is you my friend. Slappet av.
dregus
Well-Known Member
This discussion is interesting to me because I never made the connection between LME and DME. I used to brew only extract and I used either depending on what was available. When I had my friends try my beer they always loved it (because it was free) but they always talked about an "twang" in most of the beers. When I moved to AG two years ago it was gone.
I never made the connection between LME and DME but now I have gone back through my journals and all the better extract beers that friends liked were LME.
I am sold.
I never made the connection between LME and DME but now I have gone back through my journals and all the better extract beers that friends liked were LME.
I am sold.
Homebrewtruth
Active Member
All I meant by the 'jumping ship' comment is that a lot of people brew a few extract beers that taste unpleasant and then decide it's because of this 'extract twang' they've been reading about on this very forum. A lot of these beginners subsequently buy the equipment for AG and then find that their beer still tastes the same. I've read it on here on numerous occasions. Of course, you going AG will most probably be a positive thing in regards to the quality of your home brew - because you have the basics right. In short, changing method to AG (jumping ship) will not solve the problem many people are experiencing with extract brewing.
I don't really care if this is a myth or not. I just want to find a way to make it dissapear. I have been brewing extract and partial mash for about 4 years. and had the twang on every batch with the exception of one or two in the beginning when I didn't know what the hell I was doing and didn't take any notes. Every one of the last 100+ batches had the twang. I have been avoiding going all-grain due to space considerations. I finally broke down and did an all-grain batch about a month ago and OMG what a difference! It went from barely drinkable to F***ing fantastic!!!! No more twang. I would still like to figure out how to make great extract beer since it is much more convenient for me. Believe me, I have tried everything; LME, DME, different suppliers, late extract addition, impecable sanitation, large starters on stirplate, fermentation temperature control, dozens of different types of yeast, dry and liquid yeast, aeration, pure O2, secondaries, no secondaries, long primaries, long conditioning, etc., etc. I'm about out of ideas.
Has anyone that actually had this problem solved it (without going all grain)?
Has anyone that actually had this problem solved it (without going all grain)?
Have you tried different water too? There's a possibility the combined mineral content from your water paired with the minerals from the extract producers water is causing this.
If you have and still find this twang then it's simply a factor of extract that you can perceive, even if some others can't.
Rev.
If you have and still find this twang then it's simply a factor of extract that you can perceive, even if some others can't.
Rev.
oooh boy,...I've tried so many ways to say it,I'm running out. Yes,good water is important,not to mention the most important-a good process that works for you. Not using too much,if any added sugar def helps. I switched to adding DME's to the boil,LME's at flame out. High flocculation/attenuating yeast. Keeping initial fermentation temps within the yeast's preferred range is tantamount to good,clean beer flavors. Watch how much bittering is used to style. Hop bursting gives great flavors. Using enough malt extract(s) to maintain a good balance & mouth feel are important as well. Particularly in light pale ales,less room for off flavors to hide. So good practices are paramount here. I guess that's about all I can think of atm. My head's startin to hurt...
...must...get...beer...anylize errrroooorrr....eeerrrrooorrrr...!!
...must...get...beer...anylize errrroooorrr....eeerrrrooorrrr...!!Yep tried all that. Thanks for posting the suggestions though. I actually tried tap water, reverse osmosis, bottled spring water, and bottled distilled water. I even got my tap water tested by Ward Labs and it's fine. Didn't notice any difference with any of the waters. After the stellar results on the all grain batch (tap water) I went ahead and ordered ingredients for a few more all grain batches. But I'm not giving up on extract. Maybe it is the full boil that got rid of the twang. I don't know. I don't mind the mashing, it's the full boil that's a PITA. I have a small stove and it's over 95F outside for 9 months out of the year in FL. Massive amounts off bugs too. Any other suggestions/experiences welcome. I have scoured the boards and have not found one instance where someone actually had the twang and got rid of it without going to all-grain or full boils.
I got some of that on my first one. Then started developing the things I've mentioned,it's gone & that's it. I now concentrate on better flavors & aromas while I try to figure out how to afford low hassle temp control. That's a big one.
ChshreCat
Well-Known Member
Cosmo,
What kind of extract are you using? I don't mean light, dark, etc. Is it canned? Bulk? What kind of container does it come in?
I find that the biggest wildcard when you use extract is the freshness of the extract. If it's old and stale (and you don't control that all the time... it can be old when it leaves the brew shop) it's going to more likely taste bad.
I get my extract from bulk barrels at my LHBS that I know only last a couple days, at most, before they're empty and a fresh one is opened.
What kind of extract are you using? I don't mean light, dark, etc. Is it canned? Bulk? What kind of container does it come in?
I find that the biggest wildcard when you use extract is the freshness of the extract. If it's old and stale (and you don't control that all the time... it can be old when it leaves the brew shop) it's going to more likely taste bad.
I get my extract from bulk barrels at my LHBS that I know only last a couple days, at most, before they're empty and a fresh one is opened.
Also,not darkening/caramelizing LME in the boil. DME used in the boil comes out cleaner,so that's another reason I don't get any twang anymore. LME goes in at flame out. Cleaner,lighter colored beer is the result.
+100.
My first few batches have that 'twang' where I boiled the LME for 60-90 minutes. Now I do maybe 5%-10% of the LME for the full boil time and the rest goes in at flame out. Greatly improved the flavor.
As far as extract, I've used dry and liquid. I mostly do about a pound in the boil and the rest at flameout. That makes the beer lighter for sure, but I havn't noticed a difference in the twang flavor. I used to get my extract from LHBS, plastic Briess jars. I mostly get my LME and DME from Brewmaster's warehouse. I have also tried Northern Brewer a few times. Just to be clear, the twang flavor I'm talking about is kind of a sharp tart flavor like asparin or wine that was left open all night on the counter. I get it just as much from a porter as I do from a Kolsch. Like I said, I did one all grain batch and it had no twang. The difference was huge.
EarthBound
Well-Known Member
Sig worthy!
this is the exact reason i move to ag as well.. all though i'd like to dry a extract brew again with just dme and see how it turns out
I still say it's some minor fault in the brewing process at the vary least. You just don't get that twang merely because of it's being malt extract. It's likely boiling to hard for too long that's doing it. The grain process may likely be able to take the heat longer making malt out of them.
Putting malt through that a 2nd time seems to be stressing it,particularly with LME.
Putting malt through that a 2nd time seems to be stressing it,particularly with LME.
Homebrewtruth
Active Member
Well put, a lot of people seem to be writing about boiling the LME before brewing. This seems crazy to me, and completely unnecessary.
Thanx,took quite some time to put my thoughts on the subject into words. I use DME in the boil & LME at the end. Problem gone.
pjcampbell
Well-Known Member
Hi - Why do so many recipes use majority LME if there are the issues with LME?
Is there any reason not to do an all DME recipe?
Is there any reason not to do an all DME recipe?
No reason at all not do an all DME recipe. I just happen to like the aroma/flavor/color qualities I get from combining both. I guess many give LME in their recipe kits because it's cheaper?
I have done many all DME batches and I don't see a difference between LME and DME as far as the twang flavor. Maybe there is something in the process that is causing the twang. The only process change I made when going to all-grain was a full boil. Everything else was exacly the same after that. I have not done an extract full boil. I don't see how that could make a difference compared to adding most of the extract at flame out, but I'm willing to try just to eliminate it as a possibility. Anyone else have experience with extract full boils and it's effect on twang?
The twang comes from a lot of heat & time,that's it. Especially boiling all of it. The difference I can't seem to get across is when you mash,sparge,etc the grains,you're making wort. When you use extract for the same amount of time,it's like you're trying to make wort twice. That's where the twang comes from.
That may be a contributing factor, but get twang when I boil only one pound of extract and add the remainder at flameout. I have been doing that for about the last 30 batches. I think there are other factors also. I don't know what else could be different with my process that would cause it. I'm looking into temperature profiles (raising / lowering temp near the end of fermentation, crash cooling, etc.). I got the idea from this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/b...on-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/b...on-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/
Some also associate the twang with that cidery off flavor. I think it's more than that.
CrookedTail
Well-Known Member
I brewed several hefe-weizens this past summer (requests from friends for BBQs and parties). When I used the late addition method, the resulting brews were light-colored and excellent-tasting. Craft brew quality. In early September I brewed another batch for my wife (I'm sick of them, but she loves them). The day was kind of a blur, and I sort of rushed through it. Without realizing it until after the fact, I had added all of the extract at the beginning of the boil. The resulting beer was a lot darker (it almost resembled a dunkelweizen), and it had an aftertaste that I'm convinced is what people blame on the extract. The so-called "twang."
Extract does not need to go through a full 60 minute boil. Add a little for your hops at the beginning, but then add most of it towards the end. If you do a partial mash, don't add any extract until late in the boil.
Extract does not need to go through a full 60 minute boil. Add a little for your hops at the beginning, but then add most of it towards the end. If you do a partial mash, don't add any extract until late in the boil.
GNBrews
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I think CrookedTail nailed it. The caveat with late extract additions is that your hop utilization is going to be much higher with the lower gravity (and hence, less break material for hop acids to be taken from the boil). Either add the hops later in the boil, or cut-back on the recipe amount to account for the increase in IBU.
manticle
Well-Known Member
Prehopped kit tins suffer from 'twang' too, so I'm not convinced about the double boil.
Freshness of extract and yeast health seem to be the biggest contributors in extracts I taste that I can pick as extract. Haven't brewed one myself for several years but I have had some that I couldn't pick (usually involved some spec grain additions but were just fermented and conditioned very well).
Freshness of extract and yeast health seem to be the biggest contributors in extracts I taste that I can pick as extract. Haven't brewed one myself for several years but I have had some that I couldn't pick (usually involved some spec grain additions but were just fermented and conditioned very well).
Homebrewtruth
Active Member
I think the twang comes from not aerating the wort properly before pitching yeast and/or unhealthy yeast prior to pitching (if the taste I experienced during the first 7 or 8 batches I produced was the taste you're associating with extract twang). And of course, now you're screaming at your computer screen: 'But why don't people who brew AG experience it?'. And my answer to that is it simply isn't true. I've heard complaints by people on this website whom have complained about switching to AG and getting the same 'TWANG'. People who brew AG experience it less, simply because they tend to be more experienced and pay more attention to aeration of wort, and most importantly have a decent aeration strategy in place. People don't associate lack of aeration of wort with off flavours, but not paying attention to this can produce a plethora of off flavours that people associate with other problems in their process, e.g. bad sanitation or oxidation.
If you don't want to invest in an air stone and pump, or go to the extravagance of an O2 canister, simply use a whisk for about 3 minutes to whip your beer in a frenzy before pitching your yeast. When pitched, leave your yeast to sit on the foam that you've created (this is a perfect environment for the initial stage of fermentation to take place) and make sure that you leave your brew for at least a week after fermentation has 'stopped' (the specific gravity readings are steady) before bottling your beer.
If you don't want to invest in an air stone and pump, or go to the extravagance of an O2 canister, simply use a whisk for about 3 minutes to whip your beer in a frenzy before pitching your yeast. When pitched, leave your yeast to sit on the foam that you've created (this is a perfect environment for the initial stage of fermentation to take place) and make sure that you leave your brew for at least a week after fermentation has 'stopped' (the specific gravity readings are steady) before bottling your beer.
I would agree myself it's more than aeration,but the late extract additions def help. I also like late hop additions. But I chill the wort in about 20 minutes,Then pour that & the top off water through a fine mesh strainer into the FV,but not too fast. It aerates it to where I get 3-5 inches of thick foam on it. Then stir roughly for 5 minutes straight. My yeast is dry,so I re-hydrate it. No off flavors there.
But you def have to keep ferment temps in check,or many off flavors can result. So you may be right there insomuch as folks calling those extract twang...
But you def have to keep ferment temps in check,or many off flavors can result. So you may be right there insomuch as folks calling those extract twang...
It's this all the way IMO. It just doesn't need a 60 minute boil, let alone some recipes that call for a 90 minute boil, like when converting an AG to extract. I add maybe a 3rd or less of the extract at the beginning, and the rest at 10 minutes or flameout. Also, when creating my own recipes using extract, a lot of times, I'll make up some of the gravity with corn sugar, maybe 5-8 % which really seems to help dry the beer out when recipes call for a low mash temp or a low FG. Subbing extract for straight two row is a little tricky because most extract was made with some carapils.
But what if you're not using pre-hopped extract? You need some bittering,& that's typically 60 minutes. But I agree on adding only part of the extract in the boil. I ude half the DME for that part. I've never used it for a full 60 minute boil,though. I use the cooper's pre-hopped (bittering only) cans as a base,adding that at flame out. Works rather well. But when using plain (un-hopped) extract malt,it seems to me you'd need a 60 minute boil for the bittering stage.?...
You do need the boil for bittering that's correct, but what you DONT need is to boil the entire amount of extract for the 60 minutes. Just boil about a 1/3 rd of it for the 60 then dump in the rest somewhere from 10 minutes to flameout - flameout. Less caramelization (which is probably what twang is) and truer color.
I knew it had to be 60 minutes,unless there was some new magical wizardry afoot. And yes,that's how I avoid the twang. Over cooking the extract (LME anyway) is what does it in my understanding. I also get cleaner flavors with the late additions.
It's also my belief as well that lighter wort gravity in the boil gives better utilization. I use 1.5lbs of DME in the boil,if that happens to be half the total. If I'm using only 2lbs in the recipe,I throw in both pounds.
It's also my belief as well that lighter wort gravity in the boil gives better utilization. I use 1.5lbs of DME in the boil,if that happens to be half the total. If I'm using only 2lbs in the recipe,I throw in both pounds.
Homebrewtruth
Active Member
I believe the wizardry you might be referring to is called isomerised hop solution; you can add this for bittering with no boil, and flavouring hops can be boiled with dextrose.
