Strong British Ale with Caramelized Honey Recipe Discussion

[bellatorius]

Hi All,

This is one of my first posts here, so apologies if I'm not formatting this correctly.

I'm trying to build a Strong British Ale Braggot Bochet. So made with caramelized honey essentially. Last brew was a pilsener style with honey (not caramelized) and it was lovely but finished way too dry, hence caramelizing this time and making it in an ale style for a sweeter finish with toffee notes complimenting the style nicely. Unsure about my fermentables however, so please critique me! My concern is that I could simplify the malts by maybe removing the crystal or the chocolate but not sure of the impact of that. Here's what I have:

Fermentables
Pale Malt: 3KG
Munich I: 2KG
Caramelized Honey: 2KG
Abbey Malt: 1KG
Crystal Malt 240 - 90L: 0.25KG
Chocolate Malt: 0.2KG

Hops
Nugget: 30g 60 mins
Fuggles: 30g 60mins

Batch Breakdown
Batch Size: 26 L
Losses: 2.12 L
Boil Time: 60 mins
Mash Efficiency: 78%
Mash Volume: 24.42 L
Sparge Volume: 9.87 L
OG (SG): 1.076
FG (SG): 1.021
IBU: 48.3
Colour (EBC): 39.9
ABV: 7.12%

What would you do? Thanks in advance!

 

[Miraculix]

The honey will lower the final gravity quite a bit. You can mash very high to counter it, mashing in at 72c would be a good option. You could also increase the crystal malt amount a bit, I'd go probably up to 15% of the weight with a medium to darker one. Also, you can choose a yeast that will finish a bit higher naturally. Something like Windsor.

I like the idea btw.!

 

[bellatorius]

The honey will lower the final gravity quite a bit. You can mash very high to counter it, mashing in at 72c would be a good option. You could also increase the crystal malt amount a bit, I'd go probably up to 15% of the weight with a medium to darker one. Also, you can choose a yeast that will finish a bit higher naturally. Something like Windsor.

I like the idea btw.!

Thank you! I didn't even consider raising the mash temp! I might do both your suggestions halfway and increase temp to 70c while increasing the crystal to 8% or so?

 

[odie]

caramelized honey? how do you make it?

 

[bellatorius]

caramelized honey? how do you make it?

Boil honey in a large pot for about 20 mins or so depending on how dark you want it!

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you! I didn't even consider raising the mash temp! I might do both your suggestions halfway and increase temp to 70c while increasing the crystal to 8% or so?

You have about 1/3 of the total sugar as simple sugar by default because of the fully fermentable honey (I doubt that caramelisation will change this significantly but it will certainly bring flavour and colour!). This means that your fg will be 2/3 of the fg you would expect with the same grainbill without the honey (amounts increased to the same og as with honey included). So just reverse engineer this.

What is your desired fg?

 

[bellatorius]

You have about 1/3 of the total sugar as simple sugar by default because of the fully fermentable honey (I doubt that caramelisation will change this significantly but it will certainly bring flavour and colour!). This means that your fg will be 2/3 of the fg you would expect with the same grainbill without the honey (amounts increased to the same og as with honey included). So just reverse engineer this.

What is your desired fg?

I was hoping caramelisation would reduce the fermentable sugar in the honey, so maybe I'm off on that - very hard to find anything online on the effects of caramelisation on fermentable sugars. Desired FG around 1.018.

 

[Miraculix]

When I hack in your grain bill into brewers friend with your stated 78% efficiency, I get an OG of 1.097. Without the honey it's 1.069.

This means that you should get your desired fg even without any tweaking. With the suggested tweaking, you probably maybe even end up above 1.02. Which wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion.

 

[bellatorius]

When I hack in your grain bill into brewers friend with your stated 78% efficiency, I get an OG of 1.097. Without the honey it's 1.069.

This means that you should get your desired fg even without any tweaking. With the suggested tweaking, you probably maybe even end up above 1.02. Which wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion.

That's perfect then, 1.02 would be even better - the style can go up to 1.022. I'll lock in the tweaks then, thank you so much!!

 

[JohnA]

Boil honey in a large pot for about 20 mins or so depending on how dark you want it!

A crock pot also works. It takes a little longer, but it seems more forgiving.

 

[Miraculix]

That's perfect then, 1.02 would be even better - the style can go up to 1.022. I'll lock in the tweaks then, thank you so much!!

I'll tell you a little secret. The style can go up to wherever you want it to go. It's your beer, you're in charge.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

I was hoping caramelisation would reduce the fermentable sugar in the honey

Caramalizing honey won't reduce the fermentability of it, at least not any bochet I've made. I caramelize in the oven, set it for 275 and go for about 4 hours. You can go as long or short (i.e. dark or light) as you want. I would also limit the upper temp end of the mash to 158-159.

 

[G_robertus]

I've made a few bochet braggots and I agree that caramelisation doesn't really affect FG too much. Just increase your crystal, maybe use two and mash high. Depending on the style I mash between 69-72°C. Yeast can help with residual sugar, but somehow Nottingham and honey go together reaaaaally well. I've made three braggot (RI)S's and the two with Nottingham just fit together perfectly.

 

[bellatorius]

A crock pot also works. It takes a little longer, but it seems more forgiving.

Oh nice might try that! How long does it take roughly? And do you do it on high or low?

 

[bellatorius]

Caramalizing honey won't reduce the fermentability of it, at least not any bochet I've made. I caramelize in the oven, set it for 275 and go for about 4 hours. You can go as long or short (i.e. dark or light) as you want. I would also limit the upper temp end of the mash to 158-159.

Ok thanks for the advice! I'll limit the mash temp so!

 

[bellatorius]

I've made a few bochet braggots and I agree that caramelisation doesn't really affect FG too much. Just increase your crystal, maybe use two and mash high. Depending on the style I mash between 69-72°C. Yeast can help with residual sugar, but somehow Nottingham and honey go together reaaaaally well. I've made three braggot (RI)S's and the two with Nottingham just fit together perfectly.

Oh good stuff! I didn't think there would be too many people having done a braggot bochet before so great to have found some people! Nice one, I'll increase crystal and mash at 70!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Anyone brewed Waggledance, a strong bitter with honey?

Waggledance​

British Strong Ale
6.2% / 14.1 °P
Recipe by
David Edgeley
All Grain

Klarstein Mundschenk 30 L​

75% efficiency
Batch Volume: 19 L
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 22.05 L
Sparge Water: 4.27 L
Total Water: 26.32 L
Boil Volume: 23.83 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046

Vitals​

Original Gravity: 1.057
Final Gravity: 1.010
IBU (Tinseth): 39
BU/GU: 0.68
Colour: 8.7 SRM

Mash​

Temperature — 65 °C — 60 min

Malts (4.3 kg)​

3.8 kg (88.4%) — Crisp Finest Maris Otter® Ale Malt — Grain — 3.3 SRM
300 g (7%) — Cargill (Gambrinus) Honey Malt — Grain — 25 SRM
200 g (4.7%) — Crisp Extra Light Crystal 100 — Grain — 56 SRM

Other (300 g)​

300 g — Honey — Sugar — 1 SRM — Boil — 10 min

Hops (80 g)​

30 g (26 IBU) — Bramling Cross 6.5% — Boil — 60 min
25 g (8 IBU) — East Kent Goldings (EKG) 4.1% — Boil — 15 min
25 g (5 IBU) — Cascade 7.2% — Aroma — 20 min hopstand

Hopstand at 85 °C

Miscs​

2.46 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
0.99 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
3.69 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
2 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Mash
0.69 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Sparge
0.28 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Sparge
1.04 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Sparge
0.57 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Sparge

Yeast​

1 pkg — Crossmyloof CML Midland 78%

 

[Miraculix]

Anyone brewed Waggledance, a strong bitter with honey?

Waggledance​

British Strong Ale
6.2% / 14.1 °P
Recipe by
David Edgeley
All Grain

Klarstein Mundschenk 30 L​

75% efficiency
Batch Volume: 19 L
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 22.05 L
Sparge Water: 4.27 L
Total Water: 26.32 L
Boil Volume: 23.83 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046

Vitals​

Original Gravity: 1.057
Final Gravity: 1.010
IBU (Tinseth): 39
BU/GU: 0.68
Colour: 8.7 SRM

Mash​

Temperature — 65 °C — 60 min

Malts (4.3 kg)​

3.8 kg (88.4%) — Crisp Finest Maris Otter® Ale Malt — Grain — 3.3 SRM
300 g (7%) — Cargill (Gambrinus) Honey Malt — Grain — 25 SRM
200 g (4.7%) — Crisp Extra Light Crystal 100 — Grain — 56 SRM

Other (300 g)​

300 g — Honey — Sugar — 1 SRM — Boil — 10 min

Hops (80 g)​

30 g (26 IBU) — Bramling Cross 6.5% — Boil — 60 min
25 g (8 IBU) — East Kent Goldings (EKG) 4.1% — Boil — 15 min
25 g (5 IBU) — Cascade 7.2% — Aroma — 20 min hopstand

Hopstand at 85 °C

Miscs​

2.46 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
0.99 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
3.69 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
2 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Mash
0.69 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Sparge
0.28 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Sparge
1.04 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Sparge
0.57 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Sparge

Yeast​

1 pkg — Crossmyloof CML Midland 78%

This small amount of honey is very likely just disappearing taste-wise. You'd really need to get a bigger percentage of the fermentables as honey to be able to taste it in the final product.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

This small amount of honey is very likely just disappearing taste-wise. You'd really need to get a bigger percentage of the fermentables as honey to be able to taste it in the final product.

Agreed, how much would you suggest in a 19 litre batch?

 

[Miraculix]

Agreed, how much would you suggest in a 19 litre batch?

Probably about 50% of the fermentables. Depending on the OG, maybe 40% if it's high OG. Be sure that you somehow manage to remain a higher fg as this residual sweetness is crucial for the honey flavour to come through.