simple control panel

[danb35]

You could use something like this for power control:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=332

 

[mendozer]

I made a....sad....diagram of what I'm looking for. I used the image from BadNews and modified it, sloppily.

 

[mendozer]

http://www.ebrewsupply.com/ebrew-kits/bcs-2-element-2-pumps-30a-kit-85.html

Saw this, most likely similar option. Where else are you guys getting your electrical components so I can price it out?

 

[brewmcq]

Pretty much everything I ordered from auberins.com. The thread I posted the link to above has the info.

 

[mendozer]

oh and for what it's worth My utilities are:

Gas $.39 per Therm delivery charge and cost is $.56 per Therm.
Electricity $.089 per kwh.

Whatever that means in terms of comparisons.

 

[brewmcq]

It means "let's have a beer".

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

It's manual brewing, just like stove-top or propane, I just use electric elements for heat. I don't understand why it can't be this simple...? It has worked well for me for a year now. Again, one guy turns on the stove and watches his thermometer, another fires up the burner and watches his thermometer, I flip two light switches and watch my thermometer. I'm no different than them, just using a different heating source.

Unless your stove only has an "ON" and "OFF" feature, then it's nowhere near the same. When I brewed on a stove, and then when I upgraded to a dedicated propane burner - both had the option to throttle the amount of heat being applied via the entire range of ON or OFF. Using a switch and an element, your options are just that - ON or OFF. This may work fine for you, but you can't claim there's no difference.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Where else are you guys getting your electrical components so I can price it out?

AuberIns.com, Mouser.com, Amazon.com, mcmaster.com, ebrewsupply.com, and Radio Shack... I did a lot of shopping around when I got stuff, to try and find the exact component I wanted at the right price. Once you develop your idea a bit more - which will come from reading a lot more of what other people built and deciding what is important to you and not - you'll be able to narrow down the parts you want, and people can give you suggestions on where to get them.

Also noticed in your drawing (if you want any of the original PDFs / Power Points, just send me a PM), you have 2 pumps. While I personally use 2 pumps, you could get away with 1 as a cost savings. You'd be limited to either using gravity to help with your sparge if you fly sparge, or you'd have to go to batch sparging and switch the outputs of the pump back and forth for each batch sparge, but it could be done. That's a definite cost savings there, depending on the type of pump you go with.

 

[tre9er]

Unless your stove only has an "ON" and "OFF" feature, then it's nowhere near the same. When I brewed on a stove, and then when I upgraded to a dedicated propane burner - both had the option to throttle the amount of heat being applied via the entire range of ON or OFF. Using a switch and an element, your options are just that - ON or OFF. This may work fine for you, but you can't claim there's no difference.

I suppose in that sense you're right, but I've never needed any adjustment. My boils boil perfectly. The only way I can imagine they wouldn't is if I had WAY too much heat and very little head space. In terms of heating strike water, I have no idea why any adjustment would be needed there. The goal is to get up to strike temps as quickly as possible, then cut heat and rack to the mash tun.

Oh well. Maybe I lucked out...but it works for me.

Sometimes it seems like people are adamant that you MUST have control elements or that it would be "foolish" not to...I just like to point out that it's not required. People are daunted by the costs of the big fancy control panels, pumps, probes, camlocks, etc. but they're not required. If you want to brew indoors with greater efficiency than most stoves, no noxious gasses, etc. you can do so very inexpensively. That's all I'm saying.

 

[theknub]

one of the differences i think is that many of us recirculate in our MLT and have a HEX coil. you are doing a modified version of what i used to do on the stove (heat to 178 or something, account for heat loss to grain, and dough-in in a cooler.

back to the OP, why not go biab? you can get many of the benefits, easier to justify cost, and do it for 1/3 the price or so of a 3 pot system. it's approximate obviously

 

[tre9er]

back to the OP, why not go biab? you can get many of the benefits, easier to justify cost, and do it for 1/3 the price or so of a 3 pot system. it's approximate obviously

That's what I would do if on a budget but wanting some control elements.

 

[mendozer]

bad news: I only am planning on one pump. I fly sparge now, because I have two coolers (one sparged into the other while I heat my pot). I am thinking of trying Bobby's NMODBS method, in which case I would switch the connections for the pump. Everything will be camlock, so it won't be that inconvenient.

knub: I thought about BIAB, but since I'm used to a 3 stage system, I'm comfortable that way, plus I haven't experimented with BIAB enough to fully commit to it. Although, I am sewing a bag for my mash tun just to see how that is, even though my manifold works great. Without my manifold I would get EVERY last drop from my tun. And If i went BIAB, I'd definitely need PID controls to monitor the temps as I mash. I've also heard that hoisting grain bags out of kettles doesn't always fare well due to the smaller opening, although I think I cut cut that out. If I did any sort of BIAB, I'd do he Brutus 20 style with two pots. Keggle as mash tun holding grain bag and my 40 qt pot as HLT/BK. Recirculate HLT into MT then at mash out, Pump from MT to HLT/BK. But dammit now you're piquing my interest.

 

[theknub]

understood. what is the current system?

one thought, take a look at this http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Electric-Kettle-Controller-306p3084.htm

all you need then is to install elements in your kettle, run some cable, voila (assuming you have gfci and all of that in place)

 

[mendozer]

understood. what is the current system?

one thought, take a look at this http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Electric-Kettle-Controller-306p3084.htm

all you need then is to install elements in your kettle, run some cable, voila (assuming you have gfci and all of that in place)

hmm. I''m assuming that knob is a PWM to control the rate of heating, would take some getting used to compared to PID on/off cycles. Interesting though.

Current system is this:
two 36 qt coolers, HLT and MT. HLT has a 90 elbow and valve drains into silicone tube to MT manifold in lid. Manifold on bottom of MT drains via silicone into pot. My pot is the smaller one on the left burner, aluminum 40 qt behind the stainless one. This was a 10 gallon day at my friend's house. We doubled up on burners for water but his keggle handled the whole boil.

thought occurred to me after your last post... Keep my pot as HLT/BK, keep my MT cooler with grain bag (not yet made) and use the manifold on the pot for recirculation of wort for a two vessel system. I'd need a coil in my pot (or use my immersion chiller) but my one pump system (still need to decide on pump) would work that. I figure IF I go into BIAB, might as well go RIMS since I'll have a pump. This way, I only need one element/housing, one outlet (so maybe this time spring for a 220V) and an uber simple CP with one PID for maintaining HLT temp and one button for on/off.

That might be a simple parts list than making a three stage system. My friend is giving me a blank keg, so I was going to make that into my system as well, but that's one more thing to drill into, plus its 15 gallons.

am I missing anything?

View attachment 2013-05-12 14.18.17.jpg

 

[theknub]

mendozer,
i think the big thing is deciding exactly what you want and then lay out a plan. for example, when talking about biab, you wouldn't have it as rims. the two techs are different and if doing biab, you would have a single pot setup. i know there is a lot, but decide exactly what you want and we'll help.

as for what i linked, yes, that is a pwm. what do you mean 'get used to' vs a pid? the pwm will simply function like your stove and you will have to use a thermometer to monitor mash temp and/or boil. a pid you literally set the temp and forget about it. the two techs are very different but have the same result.

 

[theknub]

let me correct myself a little, you could do a rims for biab, but idk why you would. i'd just install an element in the kettle and if you want to recirculate, install a valve in the lid...

 

[mendozer]

Hmm I was just going to upgrade my 3 pot setup with a pump, but now all these ideas are making me hesitate about it. I like my setup b/c I hit 70-80% every time. I could use a little more clarification with my beer, sure, but it's still damn good beer. Since RIMS sometimes take a hit with efficiency, maybe I could RIMS, but also batch sparge after to get the last of the sugars out.

 

[tre9er]

I still don't understand how you'll fly sparge single-tier with only one pump. You have to move liquid from HLT to MLT, and simultaneously from MLT to BK. That's two pumps if you fly sparge. Batch sparging, sure, 1 pump. I batch sparge, hit 80% every. single. time.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Just going to leave this here as the discussion has been touched a few times - http://gnipsel.com/beer/software/calculators/electric-heat.xls

Should help you figure out what size element you need, at a minimum.
-Kevin

 

[tre9er]

Just going to leave this here as the discussion has been touched a few times - http://gnipsel.com/beer/software/calculators/electric-heat.xls

Should help you figure out what size element you need, at a minimum.
-Kevin

I use that all the time!

 

[theknub]

I still don't understand how you'll fly sparge single-tier with only one pump. You have to move liquid from HLT to MLT, and simultaneously from MLT to BK. That's two pumps if you fly sparge. Batch sparging, sure, 1 pump. I batch sparge, hit 80% every. single. time.

maybe everything is on a table and just stacked? it seems impossible to me as well.

 

[theknub]

Hmm I was just going to upgrade my 3 pot setup with a pump, but now all these ideas are making me hesitate about it. I like my setup b/c I hit 70-80% every time. I could use a little more clarification with my beer, sure, but it's still damn good beer. Since RIMS sometimes take a hit with efficiency, maybe I could RIMS, but also batch sparge after to get the last of the sugars out.

i had a very similar setup and while i wasn't concerned about efficiency, my problem was consistency. it was the variability from batch to batch that bothered me. if i always hit 60%, at least i can account for it. however, 65% on one and 80% on another was driving me nuts and was a big motivator for me as well.

a 10% range is pretty big and is a decent reason to change your method.

 

[tre9er]

I've been hitting 80.0% every time the last several months. I crush my own grain and haven't changed it at all, nor my mash tun. Mash temps, sparge temps, speed of runoff, these things change all the time for me but my efficiency never does. I grind VERY fine and do have some slow runoffs, but I keep doing what I'm doing because of the consistency.

 

[mendozer]

yup i have that chart thanks. I'm thinking one BK 3500-4500K with a PWM or PID, whatever ends up being cheaper

 

[mendozer]

i had a very similar setup and while i wasn't concerned about efficiency, my problem was consistency. it was the variability from batch to batch that bothered me. if i always hit 60%, at least i can account for it. however, 65% on one and 80% on another was driving me nuts and was a big motivator for me as well.

a 10% range is pretty big and is a decent reason to change your method.

sorry for vague info. I was batch sparging and hitting 77-80% on LHBS grain crush. I switched to fly sparging once I equipped the second cooler with hopes of increased efficiency. I either didn't figure the flow rate right or sparge with enough water (always seemed like too little with 5 gallon batches)
but I was getting 70-75% with erratic results. So for simplicity's sake, I'm going back to batch sparging, possibly Bobby's double sparge method. I'll try that out one batch and see how it goes. As for crush, I've been having the LHBS grind it twice and I'm going to line my MT with a grain bag just to make cleaning and draining easier.

 

[mendozer]

Reviving the thread here:

after much thought, I'm sticking with three stage system because I like my batch sparges. I recently received a keg and am receiving another from a friend. Despite the keg's 15 gallon limit, I'll use these for my 5 gallon (and rare 10 gallon batches).
Because now I want two, I'll be using two elements (my current rental has two spare 220 fuses) one on each fuse (30 A fuse?)

I think something like 4500W should be sufficient (about 21 A draw) for each the BK and HLT.

So with this in mind, could the electrically inclined offer a helping hand for making a wiring diagram? What I'll do is make a double outlet box on the wall next to the fuse panel so it can be removed when i leave this place. So for a brew box, I would need two outlets and let's just say we'll use a PID for the hell of it with simple lighted buttons to turn on/off (one button's fine).

I'll mount this box to the frame when I make it.

 

[mendozer]

bump. any plans, even simple. never used a PId before. I can figure out setting up the boxes probably connecting basic three wires. Would it be power -> PID -> button?

 

[mendozer]

This is almost EXACTLY what I want for a panel, copied the pic from Tiber Brew's build. two elements (Bad news convinced me to go 220) each with a PID and simple on/off switches. I like the emergency kill switch. I don't understand the HLT switch AND the HLT element switch though. Does one act as a failsafe? I'll only have one pump at first, but that simple panel does it all.
And since I'm a noob at this, I have to get this right:
from breaker panel, reserve two 220V slots (30A) and make connections to a "spa panel" which is basically a two outlet box with GFCI features (getting warm?).

Then my control panel, whether wall or brew stand mounted acts as the 220 "middle man" to the spa panel and the keggles in terms of connections.


Also, ebrewsupply has DIY kits for 180 bucks for 2 element kits here
Can the individual parts be had for less? I don't need the 20 or so buttons the kit comes with. All i need (assuming I'm right) are 5 on/off switches assuming I do it just like Tiber's without an extra pump, 2 PIDs, 2 SSRs, one kill switch, and 2 thermocouple hookups.

 

[mendozer]

I'm reviving this thread because after days of agonizing over my current propane setup and me wanting to do NG as a stepping stone over to electric (bc it's in my garage) I just said F it after hours of looking at burners and said "I'LL GO ELECTRIC ALREADY!!!!"

I've been fighting it for so long but today I got a nice fat check from Uncle Sam for my tax return and it's going towards this.

I still want to keep it simple though.

to review: 3 stage brewing process (and it's staying that way because I love my little cooler and all it's wonders). I mainly brew 5 gallons, once in a blue moon a 10 gallon.
Equipment has changed a bit:
10 gallon aluminum HLT (soon to be outfitted with sight glass and therm, thanks Bobby)
10 gallon cooler MT with manifold (soon to be grain bag to take advantage of pump and double ground grain)
15 gallon keg BK
One 12v DC pump in a box with PWM to control flow
Brewspace will be in the middle of the garage maybe 10 feet from my wall (fuse panel)

My thoughts for the panel are:
Simple enclosure with on/off switches for elements.
PID for HLT, SSVR for BK
RTD to HLT. Manual therm with sightglass on keggle
Emergency stop

After thought, I'll go with a 4500W element. The difference heating x gallons for me was like 3-5 minutes, but this keeps me under 40A. Since the 50A spa panel is pretty universal here, that gives me 10A of wiggle room in case I want to put my pump's power through this CP, or whatever else

pdf shows my gear projections (ignore the gas stuff on the left)

So because I'm no electrician, am I missing any parts (ANY AT ALL) or the theory behind what I want to do?


Questions:
If a SSVR controls voltage, how can I do that with a switch? I was thinking it'd be like my PWM with rotates. I couldn't find a switch like this on Auberins.

View attachment Gear.pdf

 

[mendozer]

bump. Perhaps a wiring diagram from the electric whizzes (psst, P-J!)