simple control panel

[ccbadd]

mendozer, you could start with one of these:
http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html
and keep it simple and cheap to make the initial switch.
I have one as a backup if my main cp has an issue and it works like using the stove or on propane.

 

[mendozer]

Thats how I was planning to do the boil element with this ssr. For the hlt I could do the same and just switch power cords back and forth. But since I plan to install two elements why not go for two controls? But that is a very cheap baby step

 

[mendozer]

I am willing to make the panel at this point. I just need help double checking my parts list, what to do (wiring, etc) and overall setup tips

 

[humann_brewing]

I am willing to make the panel at this point. I just need help double checking my parts list, what to do (wiring, etc) and overall setup tips

which panel are you building? I am trying to built a simple panel too,
basic on/off capabilities and either a SSVR or PID/SSR combo, not pumps necessary etc.... no fancy light up buttons and volt/amp displays etc...

It seems hard to find a list of what is needed just for this like the kit at http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html seems like it missing quite a few things still such as cables and outlets.

 

[mendozer]

exactly yeah. I just want an enclosure with a Master On/Off button (or Emergency Kill Switch), Basic on/off switches for each element, PID with RTD for HLT, SSVR for BK (PID would be good too, but I think SSVR is enough and hopefully it's cheaper b/c no thermocouple. Both 4500W elements attached via Bobby's tri-clamp fitting unit.

MAYBE I'll add a 120V outlet to power my pump (otherwise my pump box will be powered by ext cord).

 

[mendozer]

Since spa panels seem to be cheaper than actual breakers, I'll go that route, plus I can just unwire it from my fuse panel when I leave this house.
The basic 50A panel was $72 on Home depot's site, but I saw this one for $78

It has 70 amps plus a 4 prong plus a 120V outlet

So my pump's wiring could go into the 120V side and my two elements could go into a single plug into the 4 prong. Less wiring is better for looks.

Thoughts?

 

[mendozer]

OK this is a P-J diagram I found from a thread and modified it to what I THINK I need.

This is what I envision when I think of a control panel I want if I wire a 120 V outlet into it for my pump's AC adapter

 

[humann_brewing]

OK this is a P-J diagram I found from a thread and modified it to what I THINK I need.

This is what I envision when I think of a control panel I want if I wire a 120 V outlet into it for my pump's AC adapter

I am very interested in this, my question is how do you plan on supplying 70 amps to that spa sub panel? Also, you will need a couple SSRs and then heatsinks in there from what I remember.

 

[mendozer]

Yes the SSRs are the white square things above the PIDs in the diagram.
I was going to do just 50 Amps, but since they have that 70 amp panel, why not?

I was thinking the spa panel acts like the breaker, so wouldn't that just be wired into the house circuit? Otherwise I would just wire it into the panel with a 50 (or 70) breaker

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Spa panel is to provide GFCI protection. Panel circuit breaker is to provide circuit protection. You could have the spa panel provide circuit protection too, or have a GFCI circuit breaker in your main panel and only need one or the other.

The circuit breaker needs to be rated to exceed your maximum expected current draw, and your electrical wiring needs to be sized to match your circuit breaker size. If you install 50a rated wire and a 70a rated breaker, and you get a short, you could melt your wire and burn down your house before the 70a breaker trips.

In your hand sketch - the power supply from your spa panel should end in a female end, and your panel must have a male receptical. Just like you'd see on a normal extension cord. Having a male end on that side of your cord coming from the spa panel means you'd have exposed, powered conductors - not safe.

 

[mendozer]

How would I make the spa panel be my panel protection? That way its plug and play and removable

 

[summerofgeorge]

Since spa panels seem to be cheaper than actual breakers, I'll go that route, plus I can just unwire it from my fuse panel when I leave this house.
The basic 50A panel was $72 on Home depot's site, but I saw this one for $78

It has 70 amps plus a 4 prong plus a 120V outlet

So my pump's wiring could go into the 120V side and my two elements could go into a single plug into the 4 prong. Less wiring is better for looks.

Thoughts?

That panel won't work. The 50A breaker isn't GFCI. There's just a 20A GFCI outlet installed in the box. This is the one a lot of people use and it's listed at $66: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Midwest-...el-Disconnect-with-GFI-UG412RMW250P/100686230

To make mine removeable, I had a 50A breaker installed in my main panel and then had a regular 50A outlet installed in the garage. Then I installed another 50A outlet in the spa panel with a 6' cord attached. My control panel will plug into the spa panel and then the spa panel will plug into the garage outlet.

 

[mendozer]

Why not just wire the spa panel straight into the panel? Doesnt the spa panel have a breaker?

EDIT: If you have to plug the spa panel into another 50A outlet then wire that into a 50A breaker in the panel, wouldn't it be cheaper just to wire an outlet to a GFCI breaker in the panel? Otherwise it seems redundant

 

[jeffmeh]

Why not just wire the spa panel straight into the panel? Doesnt the spa panel have a breaker?

EDIT: If you have to plug the spa panel into another 50A outlet then wire that into a 50A breaker in the panel, wouldn't it be cheaper just to wire an outlet to a GFCI breaker in the panel? Otherwise it seems redundant

For some unexplained reason the cost of a 50a regular breaker plus a 50a GFCI spa panel (that has a 50a GFCI breaker) usually runs less than a 50a GFCI breaker. Also, the "pluggable" solution is portable, not part of your permanent house wiring, and technically then does not require a permit or an electrical inspection.

 

[mendozer]

Oh so you NEED both a regular 50A breaker in the panel plus the GFCI breaker in the spa panel?

I was thinking you only needed one breaker between control panel and house panel

 

[mendozer]

I'd like to get this started in the next week or two. Can anyone explain why some people have random fuses between here and there? Also, what is the "coil" in the wiring diagram? A resistor?

 

[jhobson]

I'd like to get this started in the next week or two. Can anyone explain why some people have random fuses between here and there? Also, what is the "coil" in the wiring diagram? A resistor?

I'm not an electrician so take this for what it's worth.

The fuses are intended to protect the components (i.e. your PIDs). The breakers like a 50A GFCI are there to protect your wiring. GFCI adds some additional protection when working in wet locations like a brewery.

The coils act as relays for high current. Think of it this way, the heating elements require significant amounts of electricity. In a traditional light switch you make a physical connection from open to closed to turn on the light. With a coil/relay/contactor you run a smaller amount of current from your source through a switch into the coil to activate the "coil" for your high current device. Activating the coil causes the circuit to close and provide power to your element. One benefit of a coil/relay/contactor is that you can use a switch that isn't designed to carry all of the current required for your heating elements. If you look at the switches commonly being used on e-builds they are usually rated for 1A of current. However, a 5500W element will draw roughly 23A. In order to use the 1A switch, you need to use coil/relay/contactor that can handle the applicable load.

 

[mendozer]

Ok thats clear now. Do these coils come from auber or are these hardware store buys?

 

[jhobson]

I'm not sure you'll find contactors at your local Home Depot. You can get them from Auber, Amazon, or a number of other places. I wouldn't endorse any specific vendor. You need to make sure that it is rated to carry enough current for your heating elements and that the coil side of it is applicable to your circuit. The contactors that you find vary in how much voltage is applied in order to close the circuit.

 

[humann_brewing]

Is there anything wrong with using the SPA panel as the box to place everything else in?

By that I mean, you could have your PID/SSR, heatsink out the side etc.... then your main on/off would be the spa panel shutoff right?

 

[jeffmeh]

Is there anything wrong with using the SPA panel as the box to place everything else in?

By that I mean, you could have your PID/SSR, heatsink out the side etc.... then your main on/off would be the spa panel shutoff right?

You would have to have very few components for the spa panel to be large enough to accommodate them. More importantly, though, you would have hot lines into the spa panel even if the GFCI breaker were to trip, or you were to manually switch it off. I would recommend against it.

 

[humann_brewing]

You would have to have very few components for the spa panel to be large enough to accommodate them. More importantly, though, you would have hot lines into the spa panel even if the GFCI breaker were to trip, or you were to manually switch it off. I would recommend against it.

point taken, so what about this combo

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-240VAC-...719?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8f55eeaf

Seems like this would add up to ~90 from auber

seems like this would cut costs quite a bit in parts but the question if it would work

 

[mendozer]

dang that's a deal!

I'm nervous about cheap chinese electronics. Although for all I know Auber is made in China in the factory down the street. But it's a more expensive factory!

 

[mendozer]

This is a parts list I put together today with cost. So far it's a little over $600 without shipping.
1) I feel like I'm forgetting stuff. The electricians here would be able to tell me EXACTLY what I'm missing. Like in the diagram there are small fuses. don't know how many I need from that.
2) I have this planned with SSRs because, well everyone else seems to use them. What about contactors? does one have an advantage over the other (I read that contactors go off for sure where SSRs don't). do you need both?
3) What kind of wire do I use within the box to connect stuff together? Obviously I don't need thick stuff right?
4) The plugs from Auber cap out at 30A. That's fine for my element <> CP connection. But I was planning on having a line running from CP <> Spa panel, 50A. I'm assuming it's a no-no to have a 30A plug carrying voltage to a 50A spa panel. Even though with one element running it should be fine. But WHAT IF I use both?

These are questions I have for the electro whizzes on the forum