Reusing Star San

[Clint Yeastwood]

I saw some Youtube dude saying he used his Star San solution over and over. He fills a keg with it, pumps it out to fill the keg with CO2, and sends it to a new keg. Next time he has to keg something, he does the same thing with the same batch of solution, moving it from keg to keg. I did this a couple of times, but I'm thinking of pouring the solution out tonight. It costs around 75 cents to make 5 gallons of solution, but I am concerned about using dead sanitizer and ruining a batch of beer.

So does anyone have any FACTS about how many times you can pump Star San into clean kegs without risking infection?

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I just learned that Five Star recommends throwing the solution out after an hour. At that rate, one brew day would cost several dollars.

 

[Yesfan]

Here's a current discussion of "How Old Is Your Star San?"

How Old Is Your Star San?


I can't provide facts, but just going by my experience, a 5 gallon made batch lasts me a few brew sessions. A spray bottle usually a few months. As long as your ph is around 3, you should be good. I used to keep my batch in a 6 gallon bucket. Now, I use a spare keg for storage. That way I can sanitize a cleaned empty keg and transfer lines before kegging.

I've been brewing for 11 years and I'm on my second bottle of Star San. The first bottle was a 32oz bottle that got years of use. I got down to 4 oz left before buying a 16oz bottle. The first bottle starting getting a weird smell to it, so I chucked it.

 

[day_trippr]

Five Star wants to sell their chemicals.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

The solution is supposed to be thrown out in a hurry if it's open to the air.

While reading about this, I found a guy on Ebay selling Star San for $40 per gallon. The catch is that you have to buy 4. He says the jugs don't have dates, but he says they are new.

 

[SFC Rudy]

I mix star san with RO water and keep it in a bucket with a gamma lid. Use it for about three or four months. I don’t get infections in my beer so it must still work .

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I had to look up Gamma2 lid. Neat invention.

 

[whoaru99]

I've reused the same batch several times. No problems came of it.

 

[Skeeter686]

I've listened to a couple of interviews of Charlie Tally, the guy from 5 Star who invented the stuff, and he said that if it's mixed with deionized water, it should be fine for a few months. Once the pH climbs up to 3.5, it ceases to be effective. Mixing with regular tap water will neutralize the phosphoric acid more quickly.

I'm not a chemist. This is just what I heard on the Internet, but it did come from the head guy (at the time) at 5 Star.

 

[HM-2]

If whatever you're sanitising is properly cleaned beforehand and the solution pH is 3 of below, you should be able to reuse without issues.

I've run the same 19L of chemisan through my fermzilla, two kegs, then my fermzilla again over about 6 weeks. One of those kegs had a Brett blend in it for 6 months, and despite storing beer over the summer in that leg at ambient temperatures I've had no signs of infection.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

I had to look up Gamma2 lid. Neat invention.

I use those gamma lids on five gallon buckets to store un-milled grain. When I open a bag of grain the leftovers are kept in one or two buckets then marked what's inside. I also use a bucket for smaller bags of leftover grains. Just make sure they are marked and dated.

The gamma seal buckets can be stacked three high too. I've got a dozen of them.

 

[wepeeler]

FWIW, I make a fresh 24oz spray bottle every brew day. 1ml for 24oz is the dosage rate, and that's peanuts for assuring I'm using effective Star San on brew day. That said, I use the spray bottle for about a week. I spray my taps, check for leaks on keg PRVs and use it on my beer glasses, after I clean and rinse.

 

[gonpce]

I use mine for several months. Never had infections

 

[MaxStout]

I call shenanigans on that "Five Star recommends throwing the solution out after an hour" thing. And throw out quickly if exposed to air? Got a link to whomever is making those claims?

If the pH of the mixed solution remains <3, its antimicrobal properties are still good. If mixed with filtered water, it should last months.

 

[Yesfan]

I call shenanigans on that "Five Star recommends throwing the solution out after an hour" thing. And throw out quickly if exposed to air? Got a link to whomever is making those claims?

If the pH of the mixed solution remains <3, its antimicrobal properties are still good. If mixed with filtered water, it should last months.

Like @day_trippr mentioned...."Five Star wants to sell their chemicals"....

 

[MaxStout]

Starsan is basically phosphoric acid + some surfactant. I don't see how either of those would be so chemically unstable as to degrade in matter of hours.

As mentioned upthread, the inventor himself claimed useability measured in months when mixed with filtered water.

 

[IslandLizard]

Starsan is basically phosphoric acid + some surfactant. I don't see how either of those would be so chemically unstable as to degrade in matter of hours.

As mentioned upthread, the inventor himself claimed useability measured in months when mixed with filtered water.

I did notice over time, say after 1-4 weeks, the foaming of the working solution is less dense, and not sticking as much to the surface as it does with a fresh solution less than a week, and possibly up to 2 weeks old.

It seems to work the same, haven't had any infections in many years, but for ease of mind I do prefer the slightly thicker, sudsier, fresher solution.

My water is quite soft, I can brew every light beer with it, most will need some minerals added.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I just learned that Five Star recommends throwing the solution out after an hour. At that rate, one brew day would cost several dollars.

This “best practice“ come from the FDA and when asked it is the proper answer from anyone at the company. However, sometimes they will add that as long as the PH is 3. Something it is still actively sanitizing. Just register to hear some podcasts and hear it for yourself.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Does anyone here use cheap pH strips to check their solution?

 

[IslandLizard]

While reading about this, I found a guy on Ebay selling Star San for $40 per gallon. The catch is that you have to buy 4. He says the jugs don't have dates, but he says they are new.

I purchased a one gallon jug of StarSan concentrate 6-7 years ago. It's still nearly half full...
IIRC, I paid around $40-50 for it at the homebrew store (there was a special Big Brew sale).

They are typically sold in a box of 4 (gallons), yup.
Don't forget shipping these boxes can kill "a deal" instantly.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Amazon's current price for a gallon: $83.45. Four gallons at $160 is a big discount.

The Ebay guy offered free shipping, and he was open to offers.

I don't know what to do with four gallons, though. No one near to split it with.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Does anyone here use cheap pH strips to check their solution?

I’ve checked with a PH meter. Haven’t had to dump it for being too high.

 

[Airborneguy]

I’ve been using the same 5gal bucket of star san mix since March. I’m about halfway through it (lose some every batch). It still foams as if brand new and I’ve not had even a hint of an issue.

 

[ncbrewer]

I’ve checked with a PH meter. Haven’t had to dump it for being too high.

I've checked with pH strips - also got good pH every time I checked.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I was asking because some people say the cheap strips aren't reliable.

 

[Beerstein]

I use mine for several months. Never had infections

Ditto this. Once transferred star san between six keg transfers to purge of O2. Zilch problems.

Open air is different. My problem is flies

 

[Jeroen79]

I read that it is not the ph thats degrades, its the dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid, and that is there to break down the cell walls of the bacteria, it that is gone the acid won't be that effective.

 

[day_trippr]

Citation?

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Citation?

I'm just impressed that a beer drinker managed to type "dodecylbenzenesulfonic."

 

[balrog]

If there's stuff (hop or grain debris) floating in the part I'm using, it doesn't go back in the gallon jug I mix it up in. If it's cloudy, same thing, If it strongly smells of hops, same thing. So I end up making a gallon about 3x a year. I do not make 5gal and purge a keg with it (I route the fermentation CO2 through the keg I'll be using for that batch, then on to a jar of StarSan -- which incidentally quite often makes the solution smell strong hoppy). I have NEVER measured >3pH, and I often check just to see before I toss. Because I can't help myself. It's a thing.

 

[IslandLizard]

I read that it is not the ph thats degrades, its the dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid

That's the inkling I had too, the surfactant breaking down with time. I noticed the foaming character changes with time, say after 14-30 days the foam is not as thick anymore. No exact data on that.

Makes one wonder how it fares at the super high concentrations in the stock bottle... Haven't noticed any issues when using those, even being 7 years old, some were even older.

 

[bwible]

Here's a current discussion of "How Old Is Your Star San?"

How Old Is Your Star San?


I can't provide facts, but just going by my experience, a 5 gallon made batch lasts me a few brew sessions. A spray bottle usually a few months. As long as your ph is around 3, you should be good. I used to keep my batch in a 6 gallon bucket. Now, I use a spare keg for storage. That way I can sanitize a cleaned empty keg and transfer lines before kegging.

I've been brewing for 11 years and I'm on my second bottle of Star San. The first bottle was a 32oz bottle that got years of use. I got down to 4 oz left before buying a 16oz bottle. The first bottle starting getting a weird smell to it, so I chucked it.

I started the “how old is your Star San” thread and the question at the time was not regarding mixed Star San but rather your bottle of unmixed Star San. I had a very old bottle of unmixed Star San, (16 years old?) I was having some contamination issues at the time and I was wondering if my really old bottle of unmixed Star San was no longer effective. I later got some ph test strips and proved it was still good.

 

[bwible]

I’ve been using the same 5gal bucket of star san mix since March. I’m about halfway through it (lose some every batch). It still foams as if brand new and I’ve not had even a hint of an issue.

That and I also read if its clear. Some seem to believe if its cloudy then its no longer effective.

I also re-use mixed Star San when its reasonable. I keep a carboy full and I syphon the Star San from one carboy to another to sanitize my auto syphon and tubing, for example.

 

[balrog]

Some seem to believe if its cloudy then its no longer effective

I believe that if you have high carbonate water it will be cloudy the instant you make some up; so that the cloudy metric is not necessarily foolproof, while pH is much better indicator of effectiveness.

 

[mac_1103]

I don't really see how it could be ineffective if the pH is below 3 and it still foams, but I always make up a little bit fresh on brew days for the FV.

 

[Yesfan]

I started the “how old is your Star San” thread and the question at the time was not regarding mixed Star San but rather your bottle of unmixed Star San. I had a very old bottle of unmixed Star San, (16 years old?) I was having some contamination issues at the time and I was wondering if my really old bottle of unmixed Star San was no longer effective. I later got some ph test strips and proved it was still good.

But the link I provided to your thread is relevant, is it not? How else would a bottle of Star-San last 16 years if one isn't reusing made up batches?

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't really see how it could be ineffective if the pH is below 3 and it still foams, but I always make up a little bit fresh on brew days for the FV.

It's not just the Phosphoric Acid (pH) that makes Starsan work, it's the acid in combination with a soap-like detergent/cleaner, dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid in Starsan's case.

The pH could still be well under 3 (2.5-2.7 from what I've measured), but it's rendered mostly ineffective by itself when the soapy substance, that accompanies it, has degraded beyond a certain threshold for it to do its work.
@Jeroen had mentioned this, above, in #27:

I read that it is not the ph thats degrades, its the dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid, and that is there to break down the cell walls of the bacteria, it that is gone the acid won't be that effective.

 

[mac_1103]

It's not just the Phosphoric Acid (pH) that makes Starsan work, it's the acid in combination with a soap-like detergent/cleaner, dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid in Starsan's case.

That's why I said "and it still foams." The acid doesn't make Starsan foamy. The surfactant does,

 

[IslandLizard]

That's why I said "and it still foams." The acid doesn't make Starsan foamy. The surfactant does,

I know you said that.
We can measure the acid's activity level (pH), but we can't measure the soap's activity that easily. IOW, there's no easy way to determine how much the surfactant has degraded over time, which can hamper Starsan's overall effectiveness as a sanitizer. Longer submersion/contact time may help getting adequate sanitation, overcoming a potentially less active soap function, as the product degrades over time.

I have reported a noticeable change in a Starsan working solution's foaming character over time, when mopping Starsan onto a surface. Over time the foam becomes less thick in its coverage, sticking less to the surface.

With time (several days to weeks) a Starsan working solution becomes more watery and less foamy, so to speak.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just a current data point.

Hello, I'm hoping you can clear up some confusion. I only recently happened to notice you recommend using a prepared Star San solution immediately, and discarding within an hour. You used to recommend going by a pH benchmark - so long as the pH remained below a certain threshold, the solution is still viable. In this way, in a sealed (gamma-lidded) container, I was able to use the solution for quite some time.
I use RO water to prepare the solution. Can you please advise as to why the information has changed?"

Here's directly from Five Points:

Hi Paul

Thanks for reaching out about our products. If your solution of Star San is at a PH of 3.5 or below and you are using RO water the sanitizer is still good to use. I apologize about the confusion but these are the guidelines from the EPA for a sanitizer to actually sanitize. I would recommend storing the solution in a sealed container or 32oz spray bottles. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Which is what I suspected. There inclusion of "EPA" in the description led me to believe it was a regulatory thing, not a true reflection of the product's sanitizing ability over time.