Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

[CvilleKevin]

I can stop fermentation by racking into a secondary with s04 or nottingham while using pasteurized cider? Or would I need to cold crash as well?

It depends on the juice. If it has a low enough nutrient level (mature standard rootstock trees with no fertilizer), then you can often stop either pasteurized or unpasteurized juice with S04 and Nottingham just by racking. Cold crashing is more reliable though and can be used to shut down a more vigorous ferment. Even cold crashing is not 100% reliable though. I crash and let sit in secondaries at room temp for about a month afterwards, to get some extra clearing and also to make sure the ferment does not start back up. If it does, I crash or rack again. Some of the commercial guys crash and sterile filter afterwards, so that the yeast are 100 percent removed following the crash.

Any idea how long it would take in the primary to get this drop? Say temp around 65.

At 65F, it should take you 10 to 20 days, depending on the nutrient level in the juice. Commercial juice tends to have a higher nutrient level, ferments fast and is harder to stop. Fresh pressed from older orgainic (no/low fertilized) orchards is easier to work with.

I would sulfite and sulfate to get the maximum likelihood that the yeasts are knocked out

That works, but the downside is that your cider will taste like sorbate. Some people dont mind the taste. Before you add sulfite and sorbate, I would recommend putting a little bit of sorbate on your tongue and taste it. That taste will remain in your cider and unlike sulfite, will not dissipate over time. If you dont mind the taste, then sulfite/sorbate is fairly reliable.

 

[brewski09]

This cider says the contents contains 100% juice from pressed apples. No preservatives no sugar added. When reading through the beginning of the post it says that stopping fermentation can be done by racking alone. But it also talks about cold crashing and racking. So I am trying to figure out if it is one or the other or both to stop fermentation. I am not familiar with sulfite or sulfate except in brewing chemistry for sulfate and sulfite a I see on wine labels. Original poster says you are able to stop fermentation and avoiding the need to back sweet.

Okay, I have a lot of non-cider experience with these two yeasts. I would never trust racking of the yeast came to stop either of them as they will still be in suspension. Cold crashing to below about 50f should stall them, but not all of the yeast will drop out of suspension so it could and likely would restart fermentation if brought back above 60f with any fermentable sugars in the mix. If you chill it and keep it cold then you will be fine. I personally have used potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulphite for still meads. I don't have a keg for carbonation so I do dry carbonated meads like champagne. Look into stove top pasteurization for sweetened carbonated cider. Just know there are risks to doing this too.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[brewski09]

That works, but the downside is that your cider will taste like sorbate. Some people dont mind the taste. Before you add sulfite and sorbate, I would recommend putting a little bit of sorbate on your tongue and taste it. That taste will remain in your cider and unlike sulfite, will not dissipate over time. If you dont mind the taste, then sulfite/sorbate is fairly reliable.

A better method is to blend an appropriate amount into a cider as putting it directly on your tongue will not give the same sensory experience. I don't find that the flavor stays in my products when used in appropriate amounts. Just my opinion though.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[hankyba]

Quick update - day 9, and now at 1.038, so fermentation is continuing, albiet slowly. Taste-wise, still very sweet but can now start tasting the very slight apple 'tang' introduced from the fermentation. Lovely fresh apple aroma and flavour.
So I'm assuming unless I have a complete halt in fermentation, i'll just keep letting it work away slowly.

 

[CvilleKevin]

So I'm assuming unless I have a complete halt in fermentation, i'll just keep letting it work away slowly.

Sounds like a plan. A 27 point drop in the first 9 days does seem a little slow for S04 at 68F, but not slow slow enough to worry about. I wish I could get my early season ferments to go that slow, as it makes it a lot easier to hit a good target FG when its not fermenting quite so fast. Its possible that your orchard uses even less fertilizer than the place where I get my juice, which would make for a slower ferment. If that is the case, you should have an easier time than most, getting the ferment to stop where you want it.

 

[hankyba]

CV, thanks again for the info. I do know that the orchards in this area tend to particularly focus on being organic as much as possible, so you may well be right, they might not introduce many fertilizers etc
I'll provide another update later, purely out of interest of how this particular juice behaves.

 

[MoonDawg]

I know i'm getting in on this thread about 6 years too late, but for anyone who is still listening: Acetobacter causes vinegar production, NOT pasteurized juice. Acetobacter(as afore mentioned, the bug that takes over dominance after saccharomyces dies out, and produces vinegar.) infections are caused by a handful of things: Poorly sanitized and sterilized brewing equipment- SO, clean your crap thoroughly. Also, Acetobacter requires oxygen to survive. There is 1 good way to ensure your serving bottles are oxygen free: Bottle a bit before you have reached your target FG(Dont bottle at too high a gravity or the bottles could inadvertantly explode.) The yeast left in suspension will metabolize any free dissolved O2 and create a sophisticated, sparkling appearance. :rockin:

 

[MoonDawg]

YYEEAAHHH, I think...... I just posted to the wrong thread. Sorry.

 

[RonD]

CvilleKevin,

I looked back to check but cannot find any mention of why you started using K-met. So, why did you?
I have been using the cold crashing method for over a year and only had minor problems. What kind of storage times are you getting on bottled cider (what temp are your bottles at)? Have you had any problems with secondary fermentation or bacterial infection. Have you been able to limit the oxygen in your system to limit Acetobacter action?

Thanks for any answers you can provide.

Ron

 

[CvilleKevin]

I looked back to check but cannot find any mention of why you started using K-met. So, why did you?

I started using k-meta again on about half of my keg batches, to get better longevity. With no k-meta, the ciders taste a lot better in the first three months, but would often get a little too acidic in the 9-18 month range.

What kind of storage times are you getting on bottled cider (what temp are your bottles at)?

I usually keep bottles for 6-24 months. A few that are 36 months or more. I just finished one from 2008 that was pretty good. Storage temp is room temp in a basement with no air conditioning, so varies throughout the year from 50 to 90 degrees.

Have you had any problems with secondary fermentation or bacterial infection.

Not in a while. If I am trying something new, I will use clear square swing top bottles, because those break more easily. That may seem a bit counter intuitive, but if a secondary fermentation does start up, I'd rather have it break the bottle sooner than later. I havent had one break in a long time though. Last winter, I moved my bottle crates up against a wall, so there was no way they could get direct sun. Where I had them before, they could get sun if I didnt keep them covered, and I lost a few on hot days when I forgot to put the cover back on.

Have you been able to limit the oxygen in your system to limit Acetobacter action?

Mostly. I'll use my CO2 tank to blow some CO2 into the empty carboy before a rack, will blow a little into the previously full carboy when it is on its way down, and top off with CO2 if there is any headspace. Not quite as good as a completely sealed system, but seems to do the job fairly well and is easy enough.

For the past couple seasons, my main problem hasnt been Acetobacter, but what is probably a wild yeast or bacteria, which after 9-18 months will give the cider more of an acidic bite over time. Its not the acetic acid from Acetobacter though, more of a malic or citric taste, and it usually fades after another year (but who has time for that?). I'm pretty sure that it is some organism that the ale yeast is not killing during the main fermentation, as it seems to be associated with only some pressings (usually later season) and using k-meta before pitching seems to keep it from happening. Its also an individual taste thing. I brought a few 18 month bottles to a party last night and one of them was too sharp for me. Other folks liked the extra tang, which was like an exaggerated granny smith taste, so the bottle was gone in no time, but I prefer something smoother.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Last Sunday, I had some friends over to check out some ciders from this year and previous years. We made it through 20 bottles, plus a few growlers from what's currently on tap. 24 folks stayed coherent enough to both fill out rating sheets and remember to leave them here, which I believe is a record!

Looking at ratings and comments, it appears that the tastes break down into (roughly) three groups. The first group (which is the smallest) likes the dry ciders the best and will tolerate sweetness up to about 1.008, as long as there is a lot of apple flavor going on. The next largest group (which is where I fall in) likes the semi-sweet ciders better, as long as the finish isnt too acidic. The largest group prefers a sweeter cider with a tangy finish.

The highest scoring cider of the evening was the last one - Number 20. It got an average score of 8.6. Part of this score was no doubt due to the "drank 19 bottles of cider previously" effect, but also the apple flavor was really intense on this one. I thought it was a little too sharp in the finish and so did a couple of other folks - but the majority of folks liked the tartness.

The next highest score was number 10. It got an average score of 7.9 (which being in the middle of the evening was probably a more sober evaluation). It didnt get any rave reviews, but seemed to hit the spot for most everyone and didnt turn anyone off.

Number 16 was a close third behind #10. This was from a keg from last season that had got a little sharp. Last August, when I tapped the keg, I added 14oz of maple syrup to the keg. Being an alkaline sweetener, the maple really takes the edge off a sharp finish without adding too much sweetness. It was 1.010 when I originally crashed it, probably more like 1.012 now, after the extra sugar bump.

The Danstar BRY97 West Coast Ale yeast (new yeast that I tried this season) held up well. The unsulfited version scored the best, with an average score of 7.7, putting it in the top third. Given that this yeast was pretty easy to work with, I'll be doing some keg batches with it next season. Folks did not like the sulfited version as much, with an average score of only 6.3. for identical juice and yeast.

As usual, the dry ciders did not have very high average scores, although a few peopled liked them. The best overall score was the one that I stopped at 1.004 - which was dry enough for people who like them really dry, but did not completely turn off those who like a sweeter cider. Of the ones that I purposely fermented completely dry this season (D47, 71B, Premier Curvee and Cotes de Blanc), the folks who liked dry ciders gave the Lalvin D47 the best ratings, even though the average score was only 5.6 and some others scored higher on average. I also had one from over 5 years ago - Jonathan apples, pressed 9/18/08 with S04 ale yeast fermented to 0.996. That one scored an average of 6.4, which is not great, but not bad for a crowd that is generally pretty tough on a dry cider. Over the years, its developed a floral sort of taste, which is interesting.

Full results - with average scores in []:

Dry ciders - Spitzenburg, Arkansas Black, Ashmead's Kernal, Calville Blanc - pressed 11/23/13
1 Lalvin D47 yeast – fermented dry [5.6]
2 Lalvin 71B yeast – fermented dry [4.3]
3 Red Star Premier Curvee yeast – fermented dry [6.5]
4 Red Star Cotes de Blanc yeast – fermented dry [6.5]
5 Fermentis S04 yeast - stopped at 1.000 [6.0]
6 Brupaks Ale yeast – stopped at 1.004 [7.1]

7 Jonathan Apples, pressed 9/18/08, SO4 Ale yeast, very dry (0.996) [6.4]

Cortland, Gala Jonathan - pressed 9/19/13
8 Weihenstephan Wheat yeast, Sweet (1.018) [7.4]
9 WLP005 British Ale yeast, semi sweet (1.012) [7.3]
10 WPL041 Pacific Ale yeast , semi sweet (1.010) [7.9]

Stayman, Albemarle Pippen, Winesap - pressed 2/12/14
11 Danstar BRY97 west coast ale yeast yeast, semi sweet (1.012) [7.7]
12 Danstar BRY97 west coast ale yeast yeast, killed wild yeast before pitching, semi sweet (1.012) [6.3]

13 Stayman, Gala, Winesap apples, pressed 10/24/13, US05 Ale yeast, semi sweet, (1.008 ) [7.7]
14 Cville Cider pressing party (mostly Winesap), pressed 11/2/14, Brupaks Ale Yeast [7.8]
15 Stayman, Pink Lady, Gold Rush, Winesap, pressed 12/23/13, Nottingham Ale Yeast, semi sweet (0.010) [7.5]

Cortland, Grimes Golden, Empire, Gala, Summer Rambo, Jonathan - pressed 9/13/12
16 Brupaks Ale yeast, maple sugar, semi sweet (1.010) [7.9]
17 Brupaks Ale yeast, semi sweet (1.010) [7.3]
18 Weihenstephan Wheat yeast , semi sweet (1.010) [6.5]
19 German Wheat yeast, Orange Blossom honey, semi sweet (1.012) [7.3]

Stayman, Empire and Winesap - pressed 10/15/12
20 Bavarian Wheat yeast, semi sweet (1.008) [8.6]

 

[hankyba]

Great tasting rundown CV, sounds like another successful night.

Update on my cider, have bottled it today! Took over 3 weeks to ferment.
Ended up cold crashing at 1.014 for 48hrs, then racked and left for another 6 days. Fermentation appears to have pretty much stopped, can see an occasional bubble so the S04 might still be slightly active.
However I racked yet again at bottling time, and i've bottled into PET bottles (with No added sugar) and will leave in the cellar, coming up to winter here soon, so should stay cool and dormant, or at least maybe add a slight carbonation.

The taste is great, can still taste that original fresh apple juice flavour, but with a nice tangy after taste, while maintaining some sweetness due to not fermenting right out. It is nice and smooth, and should mellow further over time i'd imagine.
The blackberry infused batch actually has an almost Rose'/Lambrusco wine (very light red wine) flavor to it up front, finishing up with a definite blackberry and apple aftertaste.

Thanks for all the info CV, i've learned a whole new process for making cider.

 

[takeoff_eh]

Hi Guys,

I am a very new cider maker, in fact, i am currently on my first ever batch. I started a 5 gallon batch of cider using fresh pressed unpasteurized cider from a local cidery and used whyeast 4766 sweetened to 1.70sg with brown sugar.
my issue is, i wanted to crash the cider at 1.10 but was on vacation and the cider fermented quicker than expected. I caught it at 1.00 and have crashed and racked to a secondary carboy.
i am concerned that i went to far with the cider as i was hopping for a sweeter cider. what can i do to impart apple flavour and sweetness if it tastes too dry and weak?

 

[PRE66_6TART]

I like my cider sweet and apple-y. Almost like drinking apple juice. I ferment it out all the way and then add one can of apple juice concentrate per half gallon at bottling.

 

[smyrnaquince]

I like my cider sweet and apple-y. Almost like drinking apple juice. I ferment it out all the way and then add one can of apple juice concentrate per half gallon at bottling.

Doesn't that concentrate just ferment right back out to a dry cider? Does it actually leave more apple taste than what you had before?

 

[PRE66_6TART]

Doesn't that concentrate just ferment right back out to a dry cider? Does it actually leave more apple taste than what you had before?

After I add the concentrate I bottle and pasteurize to halt fermentation. Maybe I should have mentioned that. I just throw the bottles in the dishwasher on the heated dry setting.

 

[takeoff_eh]

I like my cider sweet and applely as well so i will definitely try your method.

thank you for the reply.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I've heard about pasteurizing in the dishwasher as well, is this typically safe to do on older models or only with ones that have a "sterilize" feature? Mine is probably about 15 years~ old but does have a hi-temp wash?

 

[brewski09]

You would likely have to measure the peak temp on the dishwasher.

 

[mattmmille]

I have heard that there is a type of thermometer that can go through the dishwasher cycle and it displays the highest temperature that it attains until you shake it back down or reset it. I don't know a source, though. Maybe someone else here has a source? +1 from me on needing to verify it gets hot enough.

 

[mattmmille]

Hey CV, have you tried doing what I call "Super Easy Cider"? This may be addressed somewhere in the thread? I grew up drinking Murray's apple cider from Roanoke, Va. It is pasteurized and has no additives/preservatives. It's made from whole apples sourced from Virginia and West Virginia and it comes in a 1/2 gallon glass carboy. I sanitize around the cap, an airlock, scissors and yeast package, open the cap, pitch about 3 grams of safale s-04 and replace the cap and shake to mix. Replace the cap with the airlock. Ferment until around 1.010-ish and bottle. I get 5 bottles plus a hydrometer sample I stick in the fridge and drink later. The sugar level is just enough to add a little carb, but not need pasteurization. I've done this 3 times and have liked the results in all for a basic cider with a nice apple flavor, I just found some White's "Fresh Pressed" on sale that I am trying now with 1/4 c. honey added, because the SG was 1.048. Murray's has been around 1.050 to 1.054.

I have also used Murray's as a back sweetener. I have to use more than a concentrate, but I like that I know where the apples come from. I looked at a concentrate one time and it said the juice could come from Argentina or China!

I've heard that Murray's is available in gallons also. I emailed the company and one of the Murray family responded and said if I couldn't find it, I could come to their place in Roanoke! A closer drive for you than me! Anyway, I think it would be a great way to kind of standardize your experiments

 

[brewski09]

I have heard that there is a type of thermometer that can go through the dishwasher cycle and it displays the highest temperature that it attains until you shake it back down or reset it. I don't know a source, though. Maybe someone else here has a source? +1 from me on needing to verify it gets hot enough.

My thermometer is supposed to be able to measure peak dishwasher temps. Here's a link on amazon. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0021AEAG2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[smyrnaquince]

Hey CV, have you tried doing what I call "Super Easy Cider"? This may be addressed somewhere in the thread? I grew up drinking Murray's apple cider from Roanoke, Va. It is pasteurized and has no additives/preservatives. It's made from whole apples sourced from Virginia and West Virginia and it comes in a 1/2 gallon glass carboy. I sanitize around the cap, an airlock, scissors and yeast package, open the cap, pitch about 3 grams of safale s-04 and replace the cap and shake to mix. Replace the cap with the airlock. Ferment until around 1.010-ish and bottle. I get 5 bottles plus a hydrometer sample I stick in the fridge and drink later. The sugar level is just enough to add a little carb, but not need pasteurization. I've done this 3 times and have liked the results in all for a basic cider with a nice apple flavor, I just found some White's "Fresh Pressed" on sale that I am trying now with 1/4 c. honey added, because the SG was 1.048. Murray's has been around 1.050 to 1.054.

Is the fermentation "gentle" enough that it doesn't come up the airlock?

Just so I understand correctly, you ferment until 1.010, then bottle and let the fermentation finish? I take it that the cider finishes fermenting out dry, but not enough C)2 is produced to make bottle bombs?

 

[mattmmille]

Is the fermentation "gentle" enough that it doesn't come up the airlock?

Just so I understand correctly, you ferment until 1.010, then bottle and let the fermentation finish? I take it that the cider finishes fermenting out dry, but not enough C)2 is produced to make bottle bombs?

Yes...I have not had airlocks fouled and the yeast and residual sugar usually are just enough to carbonate without creating bottle bombs. I cannot guarantee it, though! I'm sure it depends on the yeast you use and measuring your specific gravity correctly.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Definitely depends on your yeast, don't do this with something like a champagne or wine yeast as it could go as low as .995 or so if you give it enough time but should be okay if you're using an ale yeast like nottingham or S04/S05.

 

[mattmmille]

Definitely depends on your yeast, don't do this with something like a champagne or wine yeast as it could go as low as .995 or so if you give it enough time but should be okay if you're using an ale yeast like nottingham or S04/S05.

I absolutely agree! With my last batch, I went from 1.055-ish with no added sugar down to 1.006, a little more than I expected. So, I may not get much carb on it, but that's okay. I could have tried to back sweeten it a little, but I didn't bother. I usually do stick to s-04. I tried Champagne yeast with crab apples last Fall...my first couple of attempts at hard cider and it was VERY dry. Like a brut champagne.

 

[billdotjr]

Hello from Pilsen, the capital of Pilsner lager!

After reading CvilleKevin's research, I have decided to make some cider too. Having a very limited experience with brewing beer, I think the cider is much better for trial and error learning.

During this time of the year I have decided to start with supermarket pasteurized apple juice (juice OG 1.048).

First batch I did was 5L. I have added few tbsp of sugar, boosting it somewhere near 1.050. I have used whole pack of S-04 and after 6 days at 25°C I had FG 1.005. I have bottled 0.45L of the final cider with 0.05L of the original juice. I have left the bottles rest for 5 days at 21°C to carbonate and then cold crashed in fridge. The final product was great, but way too dry and it had yeasty aftertaste. "Backsweetening" in glass in 1:4 ratio created an optimal product.

For the second batch I have decided to make some changes to fix the yeasty aftertaste (and the dryness):

1) I have used only 1/4 of the S-04 package for 5L. (1 package is for 20L)
2) I have boosted the OG to 1.060.
3) I have tried to keep the primary at 21°C maximum. (lowest I can get this time of the year)
4) I have decided to rack it after a week, after the most violent fermentation, to get rid of the dead yeast.

Just to note, I have made two times 5L batch, one is cider with sugar and the other one is cyser with honey, both 1.060 OG.

I have racked the primary to secondary after 5 days, cider at 1.036 and cyser at 1.028.

The problem: I have checked the cyser after 5 days in secondary and measured 1.025, then I have checked the cider after 9 days in secondary and measured 1.032. This means that while in primary, the yeast ate 0.032 for cyser and 0.024 for cider. However in the secondary, they have only eaten 0.002 in 5 days and 0.004 in 9 days!!! I can see the yeast are not dead, I can see them bubling, but the secondary is way too slow. :-( Nothing even close to 8-10 days in total publicized by CvilleKevin's post on S-04.

Any ideas, what is the problem with my process? I guess it is the racking what slowed the colony of yeast, but that much, really? Or should I keep it only in primary and then bottle? How do I get rid of the yeasty aftertaste then?

Thanks for your advice!

 

[CvilleKevin]

I guess it is the racking what slowed the colony of yeast, but that much, really?

Yes, racking will slow the yeast a lot. If you have a low nutrient juice, it can even stop fermentation

Or should I keep it only in primary and then bottle? How do I get rid of the yeasty aftertaste then?

I wait until the cider has reach the desired SG, then crash. That gets rid of the yeast and the yeasty aftertaste. You will still want to keep the bottles cold after this, particularly if you are using store bought juice (which typically has higher nutrient levels so its harder to shut the yeast down completely). Keep in mind that if you cold crash successfully with S04, you will have removed nearly all of the yeast and wont be able to bottle carbonate, so the cider will be still unless you force carbonate it. Since you are using store bought juice, you could probably get away with crashing a couple points higher than your target, then bottle and leave at room temps for a few days until they carb up. Use plastic bottles or at least one plastic test bottle if you do this, so you dont overcarb and burst bottles. Then at the desired carb level, put them back in the fridge

 

[lolznrofls]

Did you add any nutrient at the 1/3 break?.. I tend to add a little on small batches if I rack to a secondary...im currently running an experiment of one gallon racked to a secondary and the other gallon will remain in the primary till I bottle..both batches from the same split batch..OG 1.080 using red star pasture champaign yeast which I will ferment dry and backsweeten and carb it..not sure which method I want to use yet..

 

[billdotjr]

CvilleKevin:

So you basically ferment only in the primary, then cold crash and then bottle? Do the bottles still carbonate? I cold crashed the cider while already in bottle. Is that the problem?

I do the trick with the plastic bottle. I do only the bottle carbonation.

lolznrofls:

No I did not add any nutrient.