Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

[ShareBrewing]

For the WLP090 (Super San Diego) it took two cold crashes to finally stop the yeast. The first racking was done at 1.026. I figured this would only slow the yeast down a little until crashing. My SWMBO likes ciders a little sweeter, so the higher the FG the better. At this point, it was at a perfect 5% and tasted delicious. After a few days, it was cold crashed and racked again at 1.016. After a few days of stabilizing, it had fallen to 1.012. This was crashed another two days and then racked at 1.010. After letting it sit another week, it had finally stopped dropping in gravity.

This yeast is one of my go-to beer yeasts. It ferments much like WLP001 on steroids. It's very clean, fast fermenting, and usually easy to deal with because of its strong flocculation.

The cider tastes delicious, decently sweet apple flavor, nice crisp with some subtle fruity esters. Happy to see that this yeast makes a clean cider, but man it takes some work to stop this baby. It took adding k-meta, two - two day cold crashings and three total rackings.

This yeast is one of my favorites but it displays a totally different behavior in cider than it does in beer. It is quite aggressive and doesn't want to stop, even when held at temps as slow as 35F-40F. This truly surprised me because it's preferred temp range is 64F to about 70F. In the future, using Nottingham or US-05 sounds a bit more appealing because of all the work. I love this yeast and do not mean to discourage its use in cider. If anyone gives it a go, please let us know how it goes.

 

[biggerk]

C'Ville CAMRA expat, now living in Albuquerque here. Question:
Can you repitch onto yeast cake, or wash-rinse/reuse yeast from cider for other cider?

 

[kukubau]

C'Ville CAMRA expat, now living in Albuquerque here. Question:
Can you repitch onto yeast cake, or wash-rinse/reuse yeast from cider for other cider?

Sure you can. Search on YouTube and here on the forum about yeast washing. I've never reused the yeast cake, but here on the forum you can find all the info you want.

 

[chunkychicken]

So I've got 3 different yeasts going at once, has anyone else had experience with S04 fermenting slowly? I wonder if it needs to be warmer or cooler than it currently is. The ambient temperature is typically 18-20c but will get warmer as the summer comes along.

Thinking of buying a big brewing barrel (20+L) to use over the summer since it's going to be pretty hot.

 

[cgrilly]

So I've got 3 different yeasts going at once, has anyone else had experience with S04 fermenting slowly? I wonder if it needs to be warmer or cooler than it currently is. The ambient temperature is typically 18-20c but will get warmer as the summer comes along.

Thinking of buying a big brewing barrel (20+L) to use over the summer since it's going to be pretty hot.

My current S04 fermentation is slow compared to what I had expected after reading (some of) this thread and other sources. Ambient is ~18-20 here as well for the current process.

 

[CvilleKevin]

C'Ville CAMRA expat, now living in Albuquerque here. Question:
Can you repitch onto yeast cake, or wash-rinse/reuse yeast from cider for other cider?

Hey Kirk! - How's things in Albuquerque? Sorry, havent been on the board in a while. Short answer - what kukubau said! Longer answer - yeah, but there is a limit and not sure its worth the time. I once made 14 consecutive gallon batches from a single packet of yeast by splitting into thirds and pouring some of the trub from each old batch into the next batch. That is about as easy as you can get and I got 4-5 generations each time before the batches got funky. I'm sure you could do even better with washing the yeast, but not sure its worth the effort to save a few bucks on yeast.

has anyone else had experience with S04 fermenting slowly? I wonder if it needs to be warmer or cooler than it currently is. The ambient temperature is typically 18-20c

At that temp range, S04 should ferment out 5 gallons of cider within 10 days or so. IMHO, if you are planning to stop the fermentation to leave some residual sugar then ideally you would want a little lower temp - like 16-18c, so that the ferment goes a little slower, like 2-3 weeks

If your ferment is slow then a couple of possibilities. (1) you may have low nutrient juice, which is a plus if you want to stop the cider with some residual sugar. So dont worry, it may take a little longer but will be easier to stop. Unless you want a dry cider, in which case add some nutrient. Or (2) you didnt get a good pitch. I've found that it is best to sprinkle about 1/3 of the pack slowly on top of the juice so that it spreads completely out and can rehydrate slowly on the surface. When it re-hydrates and sinks, pitch another third until the packet is done. That should give you a good start within 6-8 hours. If you just dump it in, it tends to clump together and you can lose cells that way. I dont recommend using starters - its more hassle than it is worth. But if you do use a starter, use the same juice, so that the yeast start up in the same conditions as they will have when you dump it into the primary

 

[chunkychicken]

I started the yeast in the juice and that wasnt a problem. Just that its fermented so much slower than the T58 or S23. All 3 had nutrients and plenty of sugar to work with. I mixed caramel in and it was like meh, so what. I added apricot nectar and that got it going a bit.

My spiced brew smells excellent, cant wait!

 

[kukubau]

I'm about to start fermenting 13 gallons of fresh farm pressed apple juice (cider for you over the pod) from normal dessert apples, using WLP7705, but the juice comes unpasteurized.
Regarding this, will it be better not to sulfite the juice at all? How will that turn out? Will it improve the final taste if I'll add yeast nutrient?
Thank you.
Merry Christmas!

 

[MarkKF]

I use Camden (K Meta) 24 hours before pitching yeast while it's coming up to basement (ferment.) temp.

It keeps wild yeast from starting before the pitched yeast. Don't know what flavor it imparts.

 

[kukubau]

CamPden not Camden is overpriced KMeta, I can buy the powder form very cheap over here. My question is regarding the nonpasteurized juice, will make such a big difference?

 

[ten80]

Campden (sodium metabisulfite) will keep the juice from oxidixing (darkening) after it is pressed in addition to inhibiting wild yeasts and bacteria. I've used campden in about 10 5-gallon batches of cider with no noticeable downsides or flavor impacts. I think that campden use post-fermentation to stabilize cider has a greater potential for "sulfite" flavor impacts as there is no more fermentation to scrub out the potential off flavors.

Use approximately 1 tablet campden per gallon for juice with a pH of 3.3-3.5.

 

[MarkKF]

OK. Use the powder. I just think the non pasteurized juice might have wild fermentation start spontaneously while coming up to temp before I pitch the commercial yeast.

 

[kukubau]

Campden (sodium metabisulfite) will keep the juice from oxidixing (darkening) after it is pressed in addition to inhibiting wild yeasts and bacteria. I've used campden in about 10 5-gallon batches of cider with no noticeable downsides or flavor impacts. I think that campden use post-fermentation to stabilize cider has a greater potential for "sulfite" flavor impacts as there is no more fermentation to scrub out the potential off flavors.

Use approximately 1 tablet campden per gallon for juice with a pH of 3.3-3.5.

What ph meter are you using, or do you use the pH stripes?

 

[Evan55]

Kevin,

Have you tried Cider House Select yeast?
Ive had good results with it, and Im curious with all of your experience with various yeasts what your thoughts on it are.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Man this threads huge, @CvilleKevin you should add a link to your sig the most up to date complete list of all yeasts you've tried post. Stuffs hard to find.

 

[stamasd]

Thank you for this thread, it is very useful. Yes, I sat and read through most of it yesterday and today. And since I have had one carboy just liberated (bottled the English Ale that was in it this morning) I decided to make cider. I've made wine, beer and mead but not cider so far.
Picked 6 gallons of apple cider from a local orchard. It's preservative-free, but also pasteurized. For some reason they won't sell non-pasteurized cider to me.
Well, anyway. Tested the SG, it's pretty low at 1.043. I calculated that I need to add about 55g/L of fermentable sugars to get it to around 1.065. For 6 gallons, that's over 3lbs of honey. I picked 2 jars of Trader Joe's Turkish honey, that's 3lbs together. Added them to the cider - used only 5.5 gallons plus the honey that does have its own volume, filled my 6gal carboy nicely with a little head space (maybe 1qt or so). The SG with the honey added is 1.062, pretty good I think.
I added a Campden tablet, that's 0.4g of K-meta, put the airlock on and will let it stand until tomorrow to see what happens. Ideally I won't see any fermentation going on at 24h.
If all goes well, tomorrow I'll add a packet of Nottingham Ale and let'er rip. My local brewer's supplies shop still carries the Nottingham at old prices, dunno how but it's current stock. Can't complain.
Now I realize that with so low an OG and so much honey added (1/3 of the fermentable bill) I will probably end up with something closer to a cyser than cider. That's OK with me.
I plan to crash and rack it around SG 1.010.

Picture: right: bucket-o-mead, left: carboy-o-cider-to-be

 

[CvilleKevin]

Have you tried Cider House Select yeast

Yes, I made a gallon batch of it in 2014. Wasnt crazy about it though. It tasted yeasty, even after a year in the bottle. I dont think it crashes very well. It stopped fermenting OK, but seemed to leave a yeasty taste behind. I might have just got unlucky on that batch though, or it just didnt work well with my juice.

You should add a link to your sig the most up to date complete list of all yeasts you've tried post. Stuffs hard to find.

Sorry. There's a link to the yeast list on the first page. I need to update it though. I've been having really good results with Abbaye Ale yeast for the past few years. Brupaks is still my go-to though.

Just picked up 220 gallons of juice today for myself and friends. Cortland, Gala and Jonathan. Started 8 carboys. Wy3068, WY3056, BRY97, Abbaye and 4 Brupaks

For some reason they won't sell non-pasteurized cider to me

Did you tell them you were going to ferment it? I'm not sure what the law is in Connecticut, but in VA, the orchards are only allowed to sell unpasteurized juice for brewing purposes.

 

[stamasd]

Did you tell them you were going to ferment it? I'm not sure what the law is in Connecticut, but in VA, the orchards are only allowed to sell unpasteurized juice for brewing purposes.

I went back later to buy some pies (the missus loves their key lime pies - it's not just an orchard, but a full country store) and asked - basically they do the processing off-site and all the juice goes from the press straight into the pasteurizer, they don't keep any unpasteurized juice. It's a fairly small operation and I think they use someone else's equipment for that.

Regardless it should be fine. There is no active gas formation at 24h, just some tiny bubbles stuck to the sides which I think were there yesterday after I poured all in. I pitched the yeast, expecting to see signs of life in the next few hours.
(edit) 7h after pitching it's bubbling merrily away.

 

[stamasd]

After fermenting for about 10 days it has slowed down considerably. I wanted to crash and rack it a couple of days ago but couldn't, was stuck at work over the week-end. Anyway, I checked the SG today and it's 1.005, not too bad. I have moved the fermenter outside as it's going to get in the mid-40s tonight. Will rack tomorrow morning.

 

[ten80]

...basically they do the processing off-site and all the juice goes from the press straight into the pasteurizer, they don't keep any unpasteurized juice...

I'd hazard a guess that they are using a flash-pasteurizer which heats the juice very briefly (1-2 minutes at 160f or so), then cools it. The rapid pasteurization has little effect on the flavor of the juice compared to the much slower stove-top pasteurization which tends to lend a "cooked" flavor.

1.004 might not be quite finished out, most yeasts will go to 1.000 or even slightly below. Beware if bottling. Maybe take a small amount and put it in a 12-oz bottle in a warm place with an airlock to see if it keeps fermenting. Essentially a "forced ferment" test to determine your maximum final attenuation.

 

[stamasd]

I don't plan on bottling it yet. I just want to cold-crash it and take it off the lees into a secondary. I know it's still fermenting. My original plan was to crash it when it was at 1.010 but I just didn't have the time to do it. Today was the first day in a week when I didn't leave home at 6AM and came back at 9PM.

(edit) Next day the yeast had settled nicely to the bottom, the liquid is still turbid (I didn't use any pectic enzyme but that's not a problem, I don't necessarily want my cider crystal clear). I siphoned it into a secondary, put the airlock back on and moved the secondary to the garage where temperatures are in the mid-50s to 60s this time of the year. Will let it sit there for a few weeks.
I took another SG in a better setting, it's actually 1.002. It tastes very apple-y, a bit acidic, ABV is "decent" according to my taste buds. There's a bit of a bitter overtone which wasn't in the original apple juice, or maybe it was drowned in the sweetness. It's not an aftertaste, you can feel it as soon as you sip. It's not unpleasant though, the cider is quite drinkable right now. It has already received the mother-in-law seal of approval, which is the highest distinction any of my concoctions can ever aspire to get.

 

[VasDeferensly]

Any idea where to get Brupaks ale yeast in America? There are some archived ebay listings but nothing current. I'd like to get 3 packets to have on hand, right now I have S-04 and K1V-1116 as backup yeast.

 

[CvilleKevin]

AFAIK - Brupaks is not available from America. I get mine from Hop and Grape in the UK

 

[taith]

Greetings! I'm pretty new in cider brewing and this thread is massive, may I ask you Kevin if you made more yeast experimentation? Have you given second chance to other yeasts?
From yeast experiment made by friend in Poland Lalvin 1116 yielded best result for him, Wyeast 4766 and Gozdawa given him good results as well.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

AFAIK - Brupaks is not available from America. I get mine from Hop and Grape in the UK

Given that it's a 6g pack, that immediately makes me think of Munton's, and Brupaks have a close relationship with Munton's for eg malt extract. So I'd compare it closely with both of the Munton's dry yeasts. It's possible that it's a unique strain but Occam suggests that you'd want to definitely discount both of the Munton options before calling on a third strain.

 

[venatorscribe]

FYI after juicing I had a some pear juice start naturally fermenting on me. I extracted about 2 litres and bottled immediately into plastic drink bottles that were able to handle the pressure. The rest of my pear juice (approx 60 litres) i treated with K-Meta and left for a few days before innoculating with the Mangrove Jacks MO2 cider yeast. Anyway - I have since tried the naturally fermented product. Sadly it wasn't as stunning as I thought it might be. It tasted ok but not as good as the ciders made with MO2.