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So you basically ferment only in the primary, then cold crash and then bottle? Do the bottles still carbonate?

I ferment only in the primary, then cold crash and then force carbonate in a keg. The only time I cold crash and bottle is with one gallon experimental batches, and those bottles generally dont carbonate

I cold crashed the cider while already in bottle. Is that the problem?

That is probably where the yeasty taste is coming from
 
Cold crashing in the bottle is where the yeast taste is I totally agree..i forget who just gave me this advice on a beer batch in another thread..the gentleman's advice was after their fermentation is over you need to let the little beasties clean up there mess a bit before you rack it.
 
If you cold crash in the bottle and are careful to not pour that yeast sediment into the glass, there really shouldn't be a yeast flavor. I would be curious what the fermentation temp was because that could cause a yeast flavor. There are bound to be other factors too, but that was my solution (dropping the fem temp). Ambient temp doesn't count for much of anything. Also, I found my 1 gal batches required more temp control/slightly lower temps.
 
If you cold crash in the bottle and some yeast is still in suspension wouldn't that lead to excess sediment in the bottle producing the off flavor?
 
If you cold crash in the bottle and some yeast is still in suspension wouldn't that lead to excess sediment in the bottle producing the off flavor?

Increased sediment yes, but I doubt it'll provide any off flavors unless you don't leave it in the fridge long enough or you don't pour properly. The amount of remaining sugar isn't enough to cause flavors when fermented, and the amount of yeast even without cold crashing is pretty low.
 
Hey Gang, thinking of trying a batch of cider soon. Do 1 gallon batches since that's all I have space for but if using dry yeast like Notty, US-05 or S-04, how much of a yeast packet would you recommend? Whole pack? Half? Thanks in advance!
 
1/5 of a pack will suffice with those (they are made for 5 gallons direct pitch up to about 1.060ish. A little extra won't really hurt you though, but a lot might.


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I've read through and followed this thread for a long time. I find the yeast and apple experiments informative. Do you have one favorite cider yeast? Does one yeast make a favorite, or does the types of apple mixtures have to match the yeast?
 
Brewman, it depends what you're starting with. Healthy yeast, more sugar, aeration, temp control, and staggered nutrient and sugar additions. Higher alcohol will need to age longer to mellow.
 
.... Finally, if you use Nottingham, S04 or a lager yeast and add sugar, enough of the yeast will stay close to the bottom that you can stop fermentation before the sg bottoms out just by racking a couple of times, which is a lot less hassle than cold crashing....

Hi Guys. I know i'm digging up a post from long but was hoping someone could shed some light on this part of the very first post made on this thread (quoted above). I tried to get my cider to stop fermenting by racking it a few times and was unsuccessful. Any thoughts on why this should work or what I am doing wrong? I started at 1.06 with heat pasteurized juice am using s04 etc.
 
Hi Guys. I know i'm digging up a post from long but was hoping someone could shed some light on this part of the very first post made on this thread (quoted above). I tried to get my cider to stop fermenting by racking it a few times and was unsuccessful. Any thoughts on why this should work or what I am doing wrong? I started at 1.06 with heat pasteurized juice am using s04 etc.


Those yeasts are beasts and racking does nothing. There is still enough yeast in suspension that it will kick back up. If you cold crash, you gave to keep it cold or it will kick back up (bottle bombs). Camden tabs (k-meta) and k(sorb together will get the job done. Back sweetening, priming, letting them carb a couple of days, and stovetop pasteurizing also works well for me.



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I tried to get my cider to stop fermenting by racking it a few times and was unsuccessful. Any thoughts on why this should work or what I am doing wrong? I started at 1.06 with heat pasteurized juice am using s04 etc.

Its mostly in the juice. For this to work, you need low nutrient juice and long cool fermentation. Even then its still tricky. You can search this thread and the web for more info on using nutrient reduction. Cold crashing a low nutrient juice is a lot more reliable. If you cant get low nutrient juice, pasteurize or keep it cold if you want a sweet or semi sweet cider
 
Cider64_zps34c26e4b.jpg


A couple of weeks ago myself and a few friends picked up 200 gallons of Cortland, Gala and Jonathan juice. A bin (22bu) of each apple variety. This has been my go-to early season mix for a while. This pressing was another good one. SG was only 1.048, so I added 6oz sugar per gallon. I sulfited 2 batches before pitching yeast: Wy3068 and WLP005. No sulfite added to the others, which were 2 Brupaks, 2 Wy3056, WLP041 and BRY97

Most of these are regular recipes. As far as experiments for this season go, this is the first keg batch I've done with BRY97. I did a gallon of it last year which came out good. This batch is tasting very promising. I just crashed at 1.009 this eve

For one Brupaks batch I did half turbinado and half regular cane instead of the regular 2:1 turbinado/dextrose mix. I did this sugar mix once last year when I ran out of dextrose, and I liked the taste. Its not as close to the natural apple taste, just a little more beery, which is a nice change of pace. Plus the sugar is cheaper and I can get it at the supermarket if LBHS is closed. I crashed the two Brupaks batches yesterday.

Cider63_zpsce73fdcc.jpg


I added 12 drops of Fermcap-S to one of the Wy3056 batches, to see if it would keep the krausen down. It had zero effect. If anything the batch I added the Fermcap to created slightly more krausen. The two Wy3056 batches were the first to crash, a few days ago. I just racked them to 5 gallon to let sit for a while.

The timing of this season has worked out great. The nights have been nice and cool which has kept the ferments slow and spaced out, so not too much to handle each day.
 
Its mostly in the juice. For this to work, you need low nutrient juice and long cool fermentation. Even then its still tricky. You can search this thread and the web for more info on using nutrient reduction. Cold crashing a low nutrient juice is a lot more reliable. If you cant get low nutrient juice, pasteurize or keep it cold if you want a sweet or semi sweet cider

Thanks for your help- this thread has helped me a lot. I didn't know you were still posting here but since you are I have a question for you.

It seems like you go through a little bit of extra trouble to "front sweeten" and then stop the fermentation at the perfect time rather than "back sweeten" a fully fermented cider. In both cases one could use the same sugar blend to sweeten so in your opinion why is the outcome different? Do the yeast ferment the added sugars first and leave the apple sugars that have a different taste?
 
Do the yeast ferment the added sugars first and leave the apple sugars that have a different taste?

Exactly. Most of the flavor of the cider disappears between 1.005 and 1.000. Once you are at 1.000, you can add sweetness back, but not flavor (unless you are adding juice back, but even then, its not the same flavor). That is why a lot of the commercial sweet ciders have a fairly high sugar level, but not a lot of flavor IMHO.

Just about all of the sugars in cider are fermentable, and given enough time, most yeasts will get around to eating all of them. But the yeast does seem to prefer the simpler sugars first.

Getting the sugar up to 1.060 or 1.065 also makes the fermentation easier to stop, as the ABV is higher and nutrient levels are lower
 
Getting the sugar up to 1.060 or 1.065 also makes the fermentation easier to stop, as the ABV is higher and nutrient levels are lower

I'm glad to see a sane reason for adding sugar when making cider, that is well thought out and clearly explained.
 
I have a six gallon carboy going with WL 300, 3 batches going with WY 3068, and two batches with S04. I would like to crash them on the sweeter side. All are in the basement where temps range from 64 to 70 degrees, generally hovering around 67. All had extra sugar added to bring the SG up to 1.06-1.065. How soon should I start testing SG if I'm hoping to catch them in the 1.02 range? Will they start to clear any before they reach that point?
 
How soon should I start testing SG if I'm hoping to catch them in the 1.02 range

I'd expect the S04 batches to take about 7 days to get to 1.020. Probably 10-14 days for the wheat yeast batches. Depending on the nutrient level in the juice, it could go faster or slower. To be safe, I'd test after about 5 days, see where you are there, and based on your 5 day reading, plan to test again in a few days.

Will they start to clear any before they reach that point?

Probably not, but it depends on the type of apples
 
Should 3068 or 3056 ferment at a rate comparable to what you described above? I'll test the WLP300 batch tonight. It's been fermenting for 5 days now.
 
3056 generally has same or faster ferment time compared to Ale yeast. Depends a lot on how fast the pack proofs when you smack it. Fast swell usually means a faster ferment. 3068 and WLP300 are almost always slower.

So far this season my two 3056 batches finished first at 1.010 in 12 days, followed by Brupaks, 1.008 and 1.010 at 14 days, BRY97 1.009 and WLP041 1.010 at 15 days, 3068 1.022 at 18 days, WLP005 still going. That is with average temps about 5 degree less than yours, which makes a big difference this time of year. Usually this time of year my average temp is like yours and ferment times are half.
 
Cider65_zps5c295e6d.jpg


This year is the first time that I got all 8 batches from the first pressing into secondaries. Every previous year, I've put at least 2 batches straight into kegs after crashing, but this year Ive still got some decent kegs on tap from last year, so I am not in so much of a rush. These batches came out a little hazier than usual after the crash, and could stand to clear for a few more weeks.

Cider66_zps32fdb050.jpg


The two Wy3056 batches started back up fermenting again about 4 days after sitting at room temp after the crash, so I had to crash those two again. You can see the Brupaks on the right is well behaved. All the other batches have been stable after the crash. The first pressing of the season is usually a little harder to crash because temps are warmer, so having to re-crash 2 is not so bad.
 
WOW!
Thanks for all the years of info... I read (most) of this thread and with all the info I'm a bit overwhelmed.
I'll let it sink in and prob read it over again.
I have done a few batches and just looking to obtain more knowledge and hope a better cider.
Thanks again for all this info.
 
Over the years, I’ve learned a lot more about apples and juice mixes, so I figured it would be helpful to pull together some of this info into one post. Here goes:

Juice Blends:


Most cider making books describe juice blending using traditional cider apple blends (sweets, sharps, bittersharps, bittersweets, etc). If you have your own orchard, this is a great way to go. For everyone else, its nearly impossible to find traditional cider apples on the commercial market. Fortunately, you can make a pretty good juice mix from blends of commercially grown apples.

Keep in mind that the majority of the juice on supermarket shelves and even a lot of the juice that you’ll find at farmers markets and orchard stands is usually red and/or golden delicious apples – those varieties bear heavily and have high juice yields. Sometimes they will be mixed with a sour apple variety to provide a tart finish. The juice may taste OK when fresh, but when you ferment most of the sugar off, there isn’t a lot of flavor left.

To put it in beer terms – most of the juice on the market is the equivalent of using a cheap dry malt & dextrose kit. You may be able to get drinkable results, but if you have any sort of skill, you will do a lot better with fresh wort and hops. The great thing about cider, is that to have top quality ingredients, you don’t need to spend half a day mashing grain - but you may need to invest a little time up front to find a really good source of juice. Once you have a good juice source, it’s the equivalent of being able to drive up to your favorite brewery and fill up your carboys with their fresh wort.

When you are evaluating a juice mix for fermenting, you want to pay attention to at least four dimensions. First the smell – if it doesn’t smell good before the ferment, its not likely to get better. Then the first hit of the taste, which should be appley and sweet. The initial sugar taste should fade out fairly quickly and not be syrupy. The midrange is harder to describe, but want a nice flavor when its sitting in your mouth – preferably multiple flavors.- something that remind you of biting into an apple in an orchard. Then you have the finish, where a tart note is nice as long as not too tart. If you are making a dry cider, than you will want to have some tannin present also. Ideally the overall flavor profile will be almost too intense for drinking as table juice, except maybe for sipping.

With most commercial apples you will be really lucky to get 2 or 3 of the 4 basic dimensions, which is where the blending comes in. Blending apples is fairly subjective process and I don’t claim to have any great skill at this - so consider this a starting point for your own experimentation. Also some folks like to ferment each variety separately and then blend after fermentation. I prefer to do the blending first, because that way I know roughly what I’m getting. But to each his/her own here.

I tend to categorize commercial cider apples into three types: Base apples, which provide a lot of the sugar and body. Flavor/Aroma apples, which provide added flavor and aroma, but generally cant carry a mix on their own, and finish apples, which provide a lot of the acidity that you taste in the finish. Often there is a good bit of overlap here, as quite a few apple varieties can be used for multiple purposes. Here are a few that I’ve used over the years. There are certainly a lot more varieties that are available - these are just the ones that I have experience with. Personally, I like to mix at least one apple from each category when making a blend. It certainly doesn’t hurt to have more:

“Base” apples
Stayman – Traditional cider apple, could hold its own as a single varietal if necessary
Turley Winesap – Very similar to Stayman
Cameo – Also similar to Stayman
Pink Lady – Good late season base apple
Northern Spy – Hard to find this far South, but a great base for Northern Climes
Spitzenburg – Traditional cider apple, Good sugar content, has a pear like sweetness.
Ashmead’s Kernel – Traditional cider apple, Good sugar and flavor, hold its own as a single varietal if necessary
Grimes Golden – Good early season base apple
Cortland – Good for early season mix
Honey Crisp – A bit one dimensional, but OK for early season base apple.
Prima – Another good early season base apple, but tends not to clear well
Golden Delicious – Will work in a pinch if you have good flavor and tart apples to mix

“Flavor/Aroma” apples
Gala – Has a great aroma, but doesn’t keep well, so mostly for early season mixes
Summer Rambo – Another good early season flavor apple.
Rome – Great flavor, but tends not to clear very well
Albemarle Pippen – Traditional cider apple, later season, can work as single varietal.
Empire – Decent midrange flavor
MacIntosh – Decent midrange flavor
Gold Rush – Sometimes can work as a single varietal, depending on orchard
Fuji – Makes a decent flavor apple
Arkansas Black – Good if you are doing a dry cider and want some tannin.
Black Twig - Good if you are doing a dry cider and want some tannin
Hewes Crab – traditional cider apple, good tannin, could hold its own as a single varietal, hard to find.

“Finish” apples
Jonathan – Good early season apple for adding tartness to the mix
Winesap – traditional cider apple, Great later season tart apple. Can often work as a single varietal.
York – nice flavor and tartness. Fresh juice sometimes tastes a little gritty, but that comes out during the fermentation
Granny Smith – good for a tart finish, but doesn’t contribute much else flavor wise.

Complicating this a bit is that the same type of apples can vary in sugar and aroma between two orchards depending on when they are picked, how much rain the trees got, etc. So its still best if you can taste what you are getting before pressing. If you are putting a blend together, usually the best thing you can do is get samples of all these apples, cut them into thin slices, stack the slices together and chomp away to see how they mix together.

If you are not going to press the apples yourself and are not buying enough quantity to spec your mix, then the next best option is to get to know whoever is running the press at your local orchard. Probably the main thing to look for if you are dealing with a commercial press is a press operator who either makes or likes hard cider and is keeping an eye out for good hard cider apples. One of the challenges of getting a good mix is that the apples ripen at different times, and depending on the market, not everything may be available as #2 cider grade apples, so you want someone who can be creative with what’s available. If you are buying juice from a farmers market or orchard, ask what apples are in the juice. It doesn’t hurt to mention that you are planning to make hard cider with the juice. If the person doesn’t know (or doesn’t want to tell you), chances are that its mostly red and golden delicious and wont amount to much, but sometimes you can get lucky.

Pasteurization

Most cider is either flash pasteurized or UV pasteurized, in which case its really hard to tell the difference in taste before and after pasteurization. The main difference that I’ve noticed is that unpasteurized juice will clear a little faster, as pasteurization tends to set the pectin in the juice. For that reason, I prefer unpasteurized juice. Pasteurizing also kills most of the wild microbes, so you don’t need to add sulfites to get rid of them prior to pitching your yeast (assuming that is something that you want to).

Sulfites

Sulfites are a double edged sword. On the one hand, the cider will generally last longer if you add sulfites. On the other hand, you pay a price in flavor in the short term, and most non-wine yeasts tend to stink a lot more during the fermentation when sulfites are present.

If you are planning on drinking your cider within a few months, and the apples are picked and processed in a relatively sanitary environment, I’d recommend skipping the sulfite.

If you want your cider to last more than a few months, then adding sulfite may be worthwhile. Just keep in mind that you will pay a short term penalty in the taste – a bitter bite that takes many months to mellow. Some palettes are more sensitive than others. I can usually tell the difference for a couple of months after fermentation. My girlfriend can tell the difference for up to 6 months, depending on how much I use.

One thing to keep in mind is that the “recommended” dose of k-meta (1/4tsp in 5 gal or 1 tablet per gal) is based on being able to create a certain amount of free SO2 when the k-meta is added to grape juice. However grape juice is very different than apple juice. Much more sugar and different acids. While you are not supposed to be able to taste the “recommended” dose of k-meta in grape juice, you can definitely taste it in apple juice.

For many years, I skipped the sulfite completely. For the first several months, they would always taste great, but out of 40 batches, I would typically lose 2-4 to vinegar by the time that summer rolled around. For the past couple years, I’ve been adding sulfites to about half of my ciders. The ones that I am planning to drink within the first six months don’t get any sulfite. For the ones that I’m planning to make last until next season, I’ll add between 1/6 and 1/8 tsp of sulfite to the juice, 24hrs before pitching. If the juice is nice and tart (ie high acid content), I’ll just use 1/8tsp. If the juice is not so tart, I’ll use 1/6tsp. That’s been working fairly well for keeping the ciders good year round.

On a few of the batches that I sulfited last year, and still haven’t drank yet, I’m starting to notice just a bit of an acidic twang starting to develop. More of an extra malic acid taste rather than a acedic acid (vinegar) taste, but still messes with the balance. This year, I’m planning to add an additional 1/8 tsp of sulfite at the end of fermentation for batches that I’m planning to store to get me through next year. I may also do some experiments with pasteurizing before pitching the yeast and using 1/8 tsp of sulfite afterwards – in order to reduce the overall amount of sulfite used

Sorbate

Stay away from juice that has sorbate added as a preservative. Its not even worth drinking as table juice. Yes, you can get it to ferment if you throw enough yeast at it, but it will taste like ass. I’ve done this myself a few times when I ran out of cider during the summer. Its nasty. Every month or so, someone posts that they accidentally bought juice with sorbate, and there is always someone who will attest that if you make the starter from hell then it can be fermented, but so what? You can ferment Mtn Dew, but it wont taste good. If you accidentally buy juice that has sorbate in it, save yourself the trouble and use it for animal feed.

Nutrient

I would recommend skipping nutrient if you are trying to get a sweet or semi sweet cider. In fact, for cold crashing to work reliably, you need to start with low nutrient juice – preferably from older standard trees that haven’t been fertilized. I have been fortunate to be able to get juice from an organic orchard, and that juice is very easy to work with. However, I’ve noticed that when they get #2 apples from other farms, the juice is not always so easy to work with and sometimes requires multiple crashing. Last year, they got a bunch of heirloom cider apple varieties from an old orchard that is being restored (and which got a lot of fertilizer last year). That juice tasted great, but it fermented like crazy and left me with a bunch of good tasting but very dry cider.

Adding nutrient is often suggested as a solution to getting rid of ‘rino farts’ ie sulfur production from stressed yeast. Nutrient will often help with this, but at the expense of an accelerated fermentation. If you are looking to make a sweet or semi sweet cider, then a better solution is to move the carboy to a cooler location, so that the yeast aren’t trying to digest the sugars quite so fast.

Jim Koan, who is the cider maker at JK Scrumpy, did a podcast a while back in which he discussed the lengths that they go to in order to reduce the nitrogen in their apples. Andrew Lea also has a bit to say on this in Nitrogen - the Forgotten Element in Cider Making

Finding Juice

The Orange Pippen website is a pretty good resource for finding orchards in each state. Farmer's markets, roadside stands, etc can be a good source as well. If you can, find a source that can tell you the apple mix and recommend whats good for hard cider given whatever is available locally.

Good Luck!
 
podcast [/URL]a while back in which he discussed the lengths that they go to in order to reduce the nitrogen in their apples.

My Google-fu is failing me today. Does anybody have a better link to this podcast?


I'm pressing around 600lbs of gleaned apples this year and have no way of identifying the vast majority. Fortunately I've got plenty that are on the tart side and the SG has been in the 1.050-1.052 range after blending. I'm helping friends pick varieties to plant for a small cider oriented orchard that I'll have access to in a few years, I'll be comparing your list with what is likely to grow well in Western Washington.

Thanks for another great compilation of your knowledge.
 
Does anybody have a better link to this podcast?

If you go to the link, the podcast is another link in the lower right of the page

I'm helping friends pick varieties to plant for a small cider oriented orchard that I'll have access to in a few years

If you are planting your own apples, then you can probably do a little better than the above list. In that case, your best bet is to call around to a few nurseries and see what they recommend for hard cider in your area.
 
So what would the max O. G. of just pressed Apple juice be? I usually get 1.060-1.065 from the cider mill.


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So what would the max O. G. of just pressed Apple juice be? I usually get 1.060-1.065 from the cider mill.

It depends on the apples and how ripe they are when picked. 1.060-1.065 from the cider mill is the range I try to get. Earlier in the season, if there is a wet summer, sg could be 1.050 or less. Later in the season, sg can get up to 1.070 if it was a dry summer. Folks that are growing apples just for hard cider and harvest late as possible can get 1.080 or more. For commercially available apples, getting 1.060 or a little higher is great.
 
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