Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[ehall]

that's been one of the main issues with electric vehicles, unless the govt subsidizes them, they're aren't that affordable... taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the bill for what you want to do with your personal life.

 

[Bilsch]

And how much a month do you pay for that privileged? I bet it's a whole lot more than the $80/mo I spend on gas and the $1400/yr I spend on maintenance. EV's will eventually get there but currently their biggest supporters ignore all the data that doesn't fit their agenda and base their decisions on faith, feelings and fear.

I really have no way to compare to your $80/mo because I don't know how many miles you drive.
In my case I have free supercharging for life and solar.. so that comes to a grand total of $0/mo. Maintenance has also been a big fat Zero. Well, I didn't remember to look at the cost of the wiper fluid which cost something so while not exactly zero, it's close.

Actually EV's ARE there. However there are those who prefer to live in the past and read articles designed to convince people to stay as long as possible in the 'not there yet' zone. This is a disruptive technology which will make a seismic shift in the way we all live. There is a lot of money to be lost by those being disrupted and they are not going down without a fight.

 

[Bilsch]

that's been one of the main issues with electric vehicles, unless the govt subsidizes them, they're aren't that affordable... taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the bill for what you want to do with your personal life.

I'm sorry but that is just not correct. The subsidy for GM and Tesla are long gone and Tesla's sales are still increasing. They even posted a profit for the 1st quarter 2020 during the pandemic shutdown. This was their 4th consecutive profit and will most likely put them in the S&P500 index.

 

[Kent88]

that's been one of the main issues with electric vehicles, unless the govt subsidizes them, they're aren't that affordable... taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the bill for what you want to do with your personal life.

I grew up on a farm, and still have family in production agriculture. I'm used to government subsidies, and people who buy the products we raise don't seem to mind.

Government subsidies are like many other things, sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad. Just because EVs are/were subsidized doesn't make them a bad thing.

 

[Bilsch]

Just one little additional benefit to EV's over ICE..
(I mean, if you care about that sort of thing)

"Some day our descendants will marvel that we ever lived in cities filled with emissions direct from the tailpipes of cars. A new study from MIT suggests that in the US, 53,000 people a year die prematurely because of automobile pollution, compared to 34,000 people a year who die in traffic accidents."

https://qz.com/135509/more-americans-die-from-car-pollution-than-car-accidents/

 

[bleme]

I really have no way to compare to your $80/mo because I don't know how many miles you drive.
In my case I have free supercharging for life and solar.. so that comes to a grand total of $0/mo. Maintenance has also been a big fat Zero. Well, I didn't remember to look at the cost of the wiper fluid which cost something so while not exactly zero, it's close.

Actually EV's ARE there. However there are those who prefer to live in the past and read articles designed to convince people to stay as long as possible in the 'not there yet' zone. This is a disruptive technology which will make a seismic shift in the way we all live. There is a lot of money to be lost by those being disrupted and they are not going down without a fight.

Again, you quote only those numbers that suit you and leave out the biggest cost - the car payment (and the payment on your solar panels). You are becoming very predictable.

And how, exactly, did these unbiased people decide that people died from car pollution? I'm sure it is just as unbiased as the number of people who have died from covid. It is scary how you fail to see the seemingly obvious bias in everything you quote.

 

[Jayjay1976]

But technology is cyclical! That's why I'm getting in on the ground floor of a horse and buggy startup. Just think about all the ancillary products this will create demand for; buggy whips, horse shoes, those blinder thingies.... I'm cashing out my entire 401K to get a piece of the action!

 

[ehall]

subsidies interrupt the free market. thats what the govt does. if we had a truely free market in which the govt didn't interfere alot of folks wouldn't have bought EVs due to the price... we also wouldn't have all this 'safety' stuff being forced on us in the vehicles. if you made airbags, lane assist, etc, options. I'm willing to bet folks would pass on them.

and as far as the MIT study... how do they know its car pollution? factories put out alot of emissions too.

 

[bleme]

we also wouldn't have all this 'safety' stuff being forced on us in the vehicles.

I had a 1975 Honda CVCC that got 43 mpg on the freeway. Then they added catalytic converters and such and fuel economy dropped like a rock. I've always wondered how burning more fuel was supposedly better for the environment.

 

[Kent88]

subsidies interrupt the free market. thats what the govt does. if we had a truely free market in which the govt didn't interfere alot of folks wouldn't have bought EVs due to the price... we also wouldn't have all this 'safety' stuff being forced on us in the vehicles. if you made airbags, lane assist, etc, options. I'm willing to bet folks would pass on them.

I feel like we're veering off into economics, and that seems like a discussion that would be more appropriate in the debate section.

Let's just make sure we keep any economic talks relevant to EVs

 

[Bilsch]

Again, you quote only those numbers that suit you and leave out the biggest cost - the car payment (and the payment on your solar panels). You are becoming very predictable.

And how, exactly, did these unbiased people decide that people died from car pollution? I'm sure it is just as unbiased as the number of people who have died from covid. It is scary how you fail to see the seemingly obvious bias in everything you quote.

Seriously?? I quoted my own numbers. How is that cherry picking numbers? I assumed that you have already read the other 3 times in this thread where I posted studies that say it takes an average of 3 years to reach cost parity with an ICE then beyond that it's all savings. Those numbers probably haven't changed in the two days since they were posted. You can obfuscate all you like but the fact remains, all costs considered, over the life of an EV, it will save tens of thousands of dollars compared to a internal combustion vehicle. It's been proven time and again.

I have no idea how MIT did the study. But yea those bunch of clowns, what do they know. I would ignore it if I were you.

 

[bleme]

Seriously?? I quoted my own numbers. How is that cherry picking numbers? I assumed that you have already read the other 3 times in this thread where I posted studies that say it takes an average of 3 years to reach cost parity with an ICE then beyond that it's all savings. Those numbers probably haven't changed in the two days since they were posted. You can obfuscate all you like but the fact remains, all costs considered, over the life of an EV, it will save tens of thousands of dollars compared to a internal combustion vehicle. It's been proven time and again.

I have no idea how MIT did the study. But yea those bunch of clowns, what do they know. I would ignore it if I were you.

I asked you how much a month you spend on your car (and fuel) and you replied that it was free. If that's not cherry-picking numbers, I don't know what is and nobody here is obtuse enough to believe they are giving away free Teslas and solar panels.

 

[Bilsch]

I asked you how much a month you spend on your car (and fuel) and you replied that it was free. If that's not cherry-picking numbers, I don't know what is and nobody here is obtuse enough to believe they are giving away free Teslas and solar panels.

I don't spend anything a month on my car. I told you I have free lifetime charging that came with the car. The solar is a wash since I use the extra power generated that my state does not pay me for. Anything over that I plug in the supercharger for free electrons. So yes it's free, gratis, libre, frei, gratuito or however you want to say it. Even if it wasn't, the car is rated at 120MPGe so it's still way better than any gas car.

As for the cost of the car. what matter does that make? I have had it for 3 years now and have made up the price difference between any comparable model I could have purchased. For the next 450,000 miles in it's all savings.

 

[bleme]

I don't spend anything a month on my car. I told you I have free lifetime charging that came with the car. The solar is a wash since I use the extra power generated that my state does not pay me for. Anything over that I plug in the supercharger for free electrons. So yes it's free, gratis, libre, frei, gratuito or however you want to say it. Even if it wasn't, the car is rated at 120MPGe so it's still way better than any gas car.

As for the cost of the car. what matter does that make? I have had it for 3 years now and have made up the price difference between any comparable model I could have purchased. For the next 450,000 miles in it's all savings.

The point is that EV's require a huge upfront cost. Whether they are ever worth that depends on how you crunch the numbers. Nobody agrees. If it was as simple as you say, everyone would be driving one.

I paid $3200 at auction for my 2004 Sentra in 2011. EV has nothing comparable to that. Instead of cherry picking numbers, I told you $80 (which is the most I have ever paid in a month) for gas and $1400/yr (which was this year, and the most maintenance that car has ever needed). This year I had to replace the radiator, the water pump and the head gasket and I could do all the work myself.

 

[Kent88]

This thread is temporarily closed.

 

[Kent88]

This thread is reopening.

Remember that personal attacks aren't allowed. Failure to follow the rules will likely result in (but is not limited to) this thread permanently closing.

 

[Bilsch]

I paid $3200 at auction for my 2004 Sentra in 2011. EV has nothing comparable to that. Instead of cherry picking numbers, I told you $80 (which is the most I have ever paid in a month) for gas and $1400/yr (which was this year, and the most maintenance that car has ever needed). This year I had to replace the radiator, the water pump and the head gasket and I could do all the work myself.

I see your point. Yes one could pick up a 95’ civic for a grand or less and get close to 50mpg, they are said to sometimes go a half a million miles or more. And the carbon toll from manufacturing has already long since been paid. Certainly that would be greener and cost less then a new EV.

There we have it, the solution to the pollution problem.. no one buys a new car anymore.

 

[Kent88]

A friend of mine who is more enthused and better informed than me on energy issues told me a couple months ago that he was waiting for an EV that could get 400+ miles per full charge. I took what I learned from the Volt, used it to project what the latest Chevy Bolt (all-electric, advertised as having a range of 259 miles) should be able to do in the winter (I estimated 200 miles), and shared a list of places he should be able go on a full charge (100 miles one-way), and to go with that a list of fast charging stations near popular destinations or along major roads within that radius, if the need should arise. It was an enlightening exercise. A vehicle like that could, in a household like his, handle an overwhelming majority of his driving needs.

So I certainly believe that EVs have proven themselves in range, even in Midwestern winters. Especially if the EV is part of a two-vehicle household. The car that my Volt took the place of, it had probably been on three road trips in the three years before I traded it that were likely outside of the range of a Bolt. The occasions where we take road trips that a Bolt couldn't handle, we were already used to taking our ICE SUV. My spouse and I just don't take simultaneous, separate road trips. Still, we went with a Volt because it can take us where we typically go, and for about 9 months of the year it barely needs to run the gas range extender, but occasionally that range extender is darn helpful.

Charging speed is good, not great, but certainly improving. Charging locations are the same way. Charging at home takes care of most EV drivers' charging needs. The current gas station model doesn't work for EVs yet. Someday we'll be able to put 400 miles of charge on in under 5 minutes, but until then those chargers need to go in spots that people don't mind spending a little time, like the free charger at my grocery store. Jayjay, maybe instead of investing in horse and buggies, you should invest in drive-in theaters with chargers?

With the Cybertruck, the Hummer, and I think ford has some electric trucks coming up, we're about to see that EVs can handle work/towing.

EVs have certainly proven themselves to be road capable, and they are still improving.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Charging speed is good, not great, but certainly improving. Charging locations are the same way. Charging at home takes care of most EV drivers' charging needs.

Can the Volt entirely recharge its battery overnight on 120V circuit?

I know from talking to Tesla owners, any who don't have the dedicated charger installed can't even come close to charging say from 20% to 80% overnight. On 120V, they were throwing out numbers like gaining 5 miles of range per hour of charge. But a Volt that only has about 40 miles of battery range might work there.

I still think that charging can be a problem for basically anyone who rents. I rent a single family house, so I have a personal garage, but I know my landlord is too cheap to install a charger and I wouldn't want to pay to do it myself when I don't know how long I'll live here. For apartment dwellers, people may only have a carport, or have a dedicated parking space but no ability to add charging hardware.

Another decade or so and I think these things might become more ubiquitous, and apartment buildings might start including charging as a way to attract tenants. But right now that's a large number of potential BEV buyers who can't charge at home.

 

[RePete]

Can the Volt entirely recharge its battery overnight on 120V circuit?

Yes. My 2018 volt takes a couple hours longer than my 2013 did. I assume because the battery is slightly larger, and there is more range. I know people who charge them via extension cords out the window. Mine basically takes around 12 hours? We also have an ICE vehicle. So once I get home and pull the Volt into the garage, it can just sit there and charge all night. In our case we have a Honda Element, which serves as our little urban truck. It just sits most of the time. But it's nice to have when we want to haul something, or whether the weather gets nasty. I sometimes take it up to the store just so I don't have to unplug the Volt and pull it out of the garage.

 

[Kent88]

My Volt is, I believe, advertised as having a range of 53 miles of electric charge driving on a full charge. In winter, I saw it dip down to 40 miles, and this time of year I've seen it nearly hit 60 miles.

When I charge at 120v, my car defaults to charging at 8amps. When the Volt's battery is completely drained it can take about 0.75 of a day to fully recharge at 8amps. I have the option to increase to 12amps on 120v, which is typically a good idea if there isn't anything else on the circuit, but then the charger does get hot, sometimes hot enough that it stops charging. At 12amps it can typically recharge the battery from empty in 13 hours.

At 12 amps the charger can add about 4 miles per hour charge.

So when you ask if it can fully recharge it's battery entirely overnight, the answer is probably not. If you recharge for 8 hours while you sleep, then you'd just get a little over 30 miles on 12amps. If it's from 6pm to 7am, then you'd get darn close to a full charge on 12amps.

For me, that is fine. From March through November we rarely drain the battery to 0%, and when we do we have the range extender. We're paying a mortgage now, but the last two places I rented would have been fine for charging at 12amps. It's been several years since I rented a place without a garage with an outlet. In those cases it would be tough. I think someone in here said he solved that by daisy-chaining extension cords out his window, obvious not an ideal solution. For someone who can't charge overnight with a Bolt, they'd have to visit a fast charging station a couple times a week or get creative.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Yes. My 2018 volt takes a couple hours longer than my 2013 did. I assume because the battery is slightly larger, and there is more range. I know people who charge them via extension cords out the window. Mine basically takes around 12 hours? We also have an ICE vehicle. So once I get home and pull the Volt into the garage, it can just sit there and charge all night. In our case we have a Honda Element, which serves as our little urban truck. It just sits most of the time. But it's nice to have when we want to haul something, or whether the weather gets nasty. I sometimes take it up to the store just so I don't have to unplug the Volt and pull it out of the garage.

My Volt is, I believe, advertised as having a range of 53 miles of electric charge driving on a full charge. In winter, I saw it dip down to 40 miles, and this time of year I've seen it nearly hit 60 miles.

When I charge at 120v, my car defaults to charging at 8amps. When the Volt's battery is completely drained it can take about 0.75 of a day to fully recharge at 8amps. I have the option to increase to 12amps on 120v, which is typically a good idea if there isn't anything else on the circuit, but then the charger does get hot, sometimes hot enough that it stops charging. At 12amps it can typically recharge the battery from empty in 13 hours.

At 12 amps the charger can add about 4 miles per hour charge.

So when you ask if it can fully recharge it's battery entirely overnight, the answer is probably not. If you recharge for 8 hours while you sleep, then you'd just get a little over 30 miles on 12amps. If it's from 6pm to 7am, then you'd get darn close to a full charge on 12amps.

Thanks guys. And to be honest, chances are if I was driving to the extent of the battery range EVERY day, I might look more closely at BEV. But if my average day was 20-30 miles, I'd be fine with PHEV.

And for those capable of charging at 220V, I'd just need to replace my dryer with a gas dryer (where I live is plumbed/wired for either) and it would open up a 220V outlet.

 

[RePete]

Yes, the 8 amp charge takes quite a while. I always charge at 12 amps, and haven't had the charger shut off. The charger on Gen 2 Volts will operate on 220v if you have an adaptor, and charge at close to the speeds you would get from a level 2 charger if you don't want to install a dedicated charger. So I think they will handle 12 amps just fine.

You can go to location based charging in the settings, and set it to default to 12 amp whenever it is at your house. This expires after 3 months, and you have to reset it. But it beats having to change the settings every time you plug in.

 

[Kent88]

Just a stream of consciousness, here is a scenario that stresses EVs range/charging abilities.

If a hypothetical BEV can reliably get 200 miles per full charge in the midwestern winter, and all the owner had access to was 8amp 120v charging (I estimate it charges about 3miles added per hour), and only drove it for work Monday-Friday, unplugging at 7am and plugging back in at 6pm, then from Friday at 6pm to Monday at 7am they'd be able to put on 183 miles of charge. So they'd need to have 17 miles in the battery on Friday at 5:59pm.

The BEV would be plugged in for 13 hours for 4 nights, adding 39 miles each night, for 156 miles added during monday night through thursday night. So the BEV would basically have 339 miles available to it Monday through Friday, or 67 miles per workday.

That keeps it fully charged on Mondays at 6:59am, in fairly cold midwestern winters from American Thanksgiving into March. After that, it gets better.

Having lived in fairly rural areas, I know 67 miles per workday isn't ideal, and even if the person had no social life and only went out for groceries and other essentials, that cuts into both miles and charge time. I definitely know some people that couldn't make such a situation work. But I also know some people that could certainly make it work, as they have some combination of less of a commute, modern wiring in their garage that can safely handle 12amp charging, access to level 2 fast chargers near places they shop, warmer climate, etc.

 

[Kent88]

Yes, the 8 amp charge takes quite a while. I always charge at 12 amps, and haven't had the charger shut off. The charger on Gen 2 Volts will operate on 220v if you have an adaptor, and charge at close to the speeds you would get from a level 2 charger if you don't want to install a dedicated charger. So I think they will handle 12 amps just fine.

My grocery store has a free level 2 charger, which is fantastic. I usually shop slow before I get to the refrigerated/frozen stuff so my car can juice up. I usually add about 10 miles while I'm there.

I plan on putting a level two charger in my garage someday, but I've been leery of letting strangers into my house lately.

The AC to DC converter on my charger gets too hot sometimes when I push 12amps. Not being an electrician, I have no idea if that is just something I should expect, if I have a shoddy charger, or if it is the 1960s era wiring in my garage.

I usually let it charge at 8amps until I'm roughly 90 minutes from going to bed, when everything it might share a circuit with (either a garage door opener or my clothes washer) is definitely off. Then, if it looks like it wont finish charging before my spouse leaves for work in the morning I'll bump it to 12amps, and see if it overheats. If it overheats a few times I just switch it back to 8amps and be thankful for my range extender, but if it needs attention it's usually not that much.

 

[RePete]

My grocery store has a free level 2 charger, which is fantastic. I usually shop slow before I get to the refrigerated/frozen stuff so my car can juice up. I usually add about 10 miles while I'm there.

I plan on putting a level two charger in my garage someday, but I've been leery of letting strangers into my house lately.

The AC to DC converter on my charger gets too hot sometimes when I push 12amps. Not being an electrician, I have no idea if that is just something I should expect, if I have a shoddy charger, or if it is the 1960s era wiring in my garage.

What year is your Volt? I do know that the charger for the later years is suppose to be able to handle 220v, and drastically cut down on charge times using the charger that comes with the car.

Most of the chargers we find "out in the wild" are 220V, or level 2 chargers. As you say, you might get 10 miles or so if you make an hour long stop. I think that the Bolt adds around 25 miles per hour on level 2. If I bought a Bolt, I would definitely have a level 2 charger installed. Thinking about it anyways.

 

[Kent88]

I don't have a 240v (just checked the owners manual, it says 240v. Again, I'm not remotely an electrician) line in my garage at all, so it's kind of moot.

Bolts do charge faster. I think their level 2 chargers can handle 30ish amps while our Volts can only handle 20amps.

 

[RePete]

Sounds right.

I am using 220v and 240v interchangeably. You can run 240V off of 2 120V breakers, if you have extra space on your box. I have an air compressor wired in such a manner.

My problem is that my breaker box is full. I need to get an electrician out to evaluate the situation. Maybe have a larger panel installed. My FIL did some free lance wiring for us years ago, and all the slots are used.

 

[Kent88]

I've got some space in my panel. I'm hoping to get some work done next year to lighten the electrical demand of my house. That is a topic for another thread, though.

 

[NGD]

Read the first page and half of this page. Hopefully my 2 cents will help someone. Bought a 2020 Prius Prime back in September for a commuter car to run kids and myself around the greater Sacramento area. I averaged 50+ miles a day. I researched for 2 months on economical EVs, PEV's and ICE commuter cars. Had test drove a friends 2012 Leaf prior, but his range was only 80mi on a new battery and that went down in the winter/summer months. Looked at the Model 3 Teslas, but the lack of rebates and price once options were factored in went north of budget. Really wanted a Volt but it was on the north end of the budget (very little in rebates) and SWMBO isn't a Chevy fan. Plus I'd rather argue with a wall than explain why the Volt was a better choice. Just happened the bro-in-law got a new Prime at the same time. He had already broken down the numbers and they fell well within our budget.

Few notes from my experience with the prime.
The Good:

• Car does what it's designed to do...go in a straight line very efficiently. Only 30mi range (from 28-34 depending on weather), but even on the ICE it's pulling ~50mpg. At 70mph on flat road, it also charges the battery albeit very slowly.
• Seats are fairly comfortable both front and rear
• Apply car Play is pretty sweet
• The fuel savings alone pay for the car payment compared the the dino it replaced (a '01 Landcruiser that uses Premium fuel)
• Estimated mileage is 600mi with a full charge and full tank
• I can easily go from Sacramento to Reno and back on less than a tank.
• Gas tank hold 8.5 gallons and I'm back on the road in minutes.
• EV mode driving is really neat. Fair amount of torque and quiet. Literally took me a few weeks to think something wasn't broke when we came to a stop and it was silent. (long history of driving fords and chevys. If it's not making noise..it broke down)
• Price vs the competition
• No OTA updates or reliance on the mothership. Teslas are awesome until you can't unlock it with your phone because a server is down.
• Adaptive cruise control is smooth, especially when compared with a 2017 Model S I rode in 5 months prior.
• Regen is quite efficient. I can go up several percentage points on a 1/2 mi downhill. Granted battery is small so less to fill.
• Full charge is 5hr on 120v, 2.5 on 220v
• 4 builtin USB chargers keep the kids happy for longer drives to Tahoe.

The Bad

• No matter how comfortable the seats are..it's still a compact car
• Storage is a joke. Especially when compared to the Tesla or Volt
• light weight cars are not fun to drive during high winds..and the prime is LIGHT
• small rock cracked the windshield in Feb. Cost $1k for the windshield and $400 for the camera realignment. I wasn't close to any vehicles with it happened.
• Not nearly as fun to drive as some zippier compact cars
• When the engine does come on, it's fairly loud at highway cruising speeds
• Rest of Toyota built in electronics are fairly useless and not well laid out. They give very little info about how the car is actually operating.
• AC does not blow cold enough on really hot (+100F, 37.7C) days to properly cool interior. Especially compared to our '05 Camry and 01 Cruiser

Overall, pretty happy with the car. Gets 70% of my daily driving done on electric and as long as gas stays above 3.20/gal it's cheaper to charge. One of the deciding factors for us going with PEV was the fact that our utility occasionally cuts power during heavy use times...sometimes for days. On top of that they are also one of the more expensive utilities in the country (I hear you playing the tiny violin Hawaii, you guys have it much worse). Rates are around the .20/kWh with it jumping to .32/kWh last I checked.

Hopefully that helps someone out. I was in the camp of "Le t the technology mature a bit more" for several years. After driving in my buddys Leaf, and riding in a Tesla I changed my mind. Ludicrous mode in the Tesla is stupid fast and the electronics are incredible while they work. When they do break down however...there is no roadside repair possible. Spare tire anyone?

Edit: Apologies for writing a novel