Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[AzOr]

Read the first page and half of this page. Hopefully my 2 cents will help someone. Bought a 2020 Prius Prime back in September for a commuter car to run kids and myself around the greater Sacramento area. I averaged 50+ miles a day. I researched for 2 months on economical EVs, PEV's and ICE commuter cars. Had test drove a friends 2012 Leaf prior, but his range was only 80mi on a new battery and that went down in the winter/summer months. Looked at the Model 3 Teslas, but the lack of rebates and price once options were factored in went north of budget. Really wanted a Volt but it was on the north end of the budget (very little in rebates) and SWMBO isn't a Chevy fan. Plus I'd rather argue with a wall than explain why the Volt was a better choice. Just happened the bro-in-law got a new Prime at the same time. He had already broken down the numbers and they fell well within our budget.

Few notes from my experience with the prime.
The Good:

• Car does what it's designed to do...go in a straight line very efficiently. Only 30mi range (from 28-34 depending on weather), but even on the ICE it's pulling ~50mpg. At 70mph on flat road, it also charges the battery albeit very slowly.
• Seats are fairly comfortable both front and rear
• Apply car Play is pretty sweet
• The fuel savings alone pay for the car payment compared the the dino it replaced (a '01 Landcruiser that uses Premium fuel)
• Estimated mileage is 600mi with a full charge and full tank
• I can easily go from Sacramento to Reno and back on less than a tank.
• Gas tank hold 8.5 gallons and I'm back on the road in minutes.
• EV mode driving is really neat. Fair amount of torque and quiet. Literally took me a few weeks to think something wasn't broke when we came to a stop and it was silent. (long history of driving fords and chevys. If it's not making noise..it broke down)
• Price vs the competition
• No OTA updates or reliance on the mothership. Teslas are awesome until you can't unlock it with your phone because a server is down.
• Adaptive cruise control is smooth, especially when compared with a 2017 Model S I rode in 5 months prior.
• Regen is quite efficient. I can go up several percentage points on a 1/2 mi downhill. Granted battery is small so less to fill.
• Full charge is 5hr on 120v, 2.5 on 220v
• 4 builtin USB chargers keep the kids happy for longer drives to Tahoe.

The Bad

• No matter how comfortable the seats are..it's still a compact car
• Storage is a joke. Especially when compared to the Tesla or Volt
• light weight cars are not fun to drive during high winds..and the prime is LIGHT
• small rock cracked the windshield in Feb. Cost $1k for the windshield and $400 for the camera realignment. I wasn't close to any vehicles with it happened.
• Not nearly as fun to drive as some zippier compact cars
• When the engine does come on, it's fairly loud at highway cruising speeds
• Rest of Toyota built in electronics are fairly useless and not well laid out. They give very little info about how the car is actually operating.
• AC does not blow cold enough on really hot (+100F, 37.7C) days to properly cool interior. Especially compared to our '05 Camry and 01 Cruiser

Overall, pretty happy with the car. Gets 70% of my daily driving done on electric and as long as gas stays above 3.20/gal it's cheaper to charge. One of the deciding factors for us going with PEV was the fact that our utility occasionally cuts power during heavy use times...sometimes for days. On top of that they are also one of the more expensive utilities in the country (I hear you playing the tiny violin Hawaii, you guys have it much worse). Rates are around the .20/kWh with it jumping to .32/kWh last I checked.

Hopefully that helps someone out. I was in the camp of "Le t the technology mature a bit more" for several years. After driving in my buddys Leaf, and riding in a Tesla I changed my mind. Ludicrous mode in the Tesla is stupid fast and the electronics are incredible while they work. When they do break down however...there is no roadside repair possible. Spare tire anyone?

Edit: Apologies for writing a novel

Very helpful. Thank you.
Btw- if there were ever a vehicle worthy of throwing away gas, it’s the Land Cruiser. That era would be my pick for a post apocalyptic, world’s coming to an end, I need a reliable vehicle, that can go anywhere.
I had a ‘98 and still cringe when I think about the day I sold it.

 

[NGD]

Very helpful. Thank you.
Btw- if there were ever a vehicle worthy of throwing away gas, it’s the Land Cruiser. That era would be my pick for a post apocalyptic, world’s coming to an end, I need a reliable vehicle, that can go anywhere.
I had a ‘98 and still cringe when I think about the day I sold it.

Love the 100’s. 255k and motor just keeps going. Getting ready to add a borla catback. Wish the Thorley manifolds were CARB. The LC is now the winter and family/friends transpo. Its expensive, but gets the job done reliably. I get 13mpg if I drive off a cliff....or under 63. Rivian and Cyber truck are going to have to bring some serious game and discounts in order to compete in towing and longevity.

 

[Bilsch]

Rivian and Cyber truck are going to have to bring some serious game and discounts in order to compete in towing and longevity.

I'm just going to put this here.

 

[day_trippr]

Meh. Who actually cares? They're both soul-less machines.
Give me a classic car with a manual box and an open road to play...

Cheers!

 

[NGD]

I'm just going to put this here.

That's a great promo video. While I'm pretty agnostic on the styling the Cybertruck seems pretty badass. I like some of the ideas they appear to have implemented with securing the bed and having a ramp on the tailgate. The tri-motor can almost tow as much as a 2020 F-350 but there is alot of conjecture vs. data ATM. My question is with a truck like that..even with a 500mi range...how long would it take to get from say Sacramento to Glacier National Park while towing a travel trailer when factoring in stops to charge vs. a fuel up. Will you still get 500mi range when crossing Nevada while it's 110F?

Curious if anyone has one of the Korean EV's. They look like they have come quite a ways in a short period of time. Looked at those pretty closely but didn't see much in the way of reviews. I prefer to go with a proven technology when transporting kids around.

 

[kh54s10]

Oh no.. you mean to tell me for these last 3 years I’ve only imagined not going to the gas station or auto repair shop? And I’m only hallucinating about the money I’m saving? Damn man... why’d you have to go and ruin my fantasy reality.

Wait until you have to replace the battery...

 

[kh54s10]

Haha not so fast. Here is the exact quote of what you said:
"You are totally misinformed..... Electric vehicles are recharged off the electric grid. At least 80% is still produced with coal, oil or natural gas."
Nice try though with the nuclear thing.

Yea I also read that about lithium batteries not being recyclable.. in 2015. Things change, technology advances and we move forward. Well some of us anyway.

Sorry, my mistake in omitting nuclear..... Semantics...
Point is that only 17% of the electricity to recharge your electric vehicle comes from renewable energy sources.

And show me where lithium batteries are at least mostly recyclable.

And I am not railing against electric vehicles - I want one. I can't afford one. And would also need a world killing gasoline backup for when I need to exceed it's range... I am commenting on the notion that they don't contribute to carbon emissions. They DO!

 

[Kent88]

Wait until you have to replace the battery...

When I was looking at getting my car I did wonder whether I'd be stuck replacing the high-voltage battery someday.

While I was car shopping I spoke to a Volt owner who had driven his car for over 200,000 miles and had never had an issue with his high-voltage battery. He wanted to buy another Volt and have one of his kids start driving the old one when he got his license.

Then I saw this. The GM exec did exaggerate the claim, but even after they clarified what Barra meant, it still sounds like the batteries are pretty solid. And as I was looking for a new or gently used vehicle, and I only intend to put 120,000 miles on it (give or take) before selling/trading it, I figured I was in pretty good shape.

 

[bleme]

In my research, I found a several articles (like this one) on Leaf's not lasting 100,000 miles. I also found a 2013 Leaf with 75,000 miles on it for $5000 so I used that to crank the numbers.

That Leaf should have 25,000 miles on it before I need to spend $6265 for another 100,000 miles. $5,000+$6265=$11,265. Divided by 125,000 miles is $.09012 per mile. Compared to my current Nissan's 35mpg gets me the equivalent of a gallon of gas for $3.15 and I haven't paid for electricity yet. Scratch that Leaf off my list and keep looking I guess.

I also found a Prius for $2500 that needed a battery, and several companies selling the replacement battery (all on Craigslist), but I haven't run numbers on that one yet. My gut says it's a 'pass' too though.

 

[Kent88]

I keep forgetting about Nissan. I grew up with GM vehicles, and my wife grew up with Chrysler. I'm pretty happy with my GM-made car. Looking forward to the hybrid Jeeps that should be out within a few years.

A buddy of mine has been keeping track of Nissans. He tells me that the aftermarket battery options for Nissans is pretty good. He has been considering picking up a used Leaf and installing a new battery.

 

[Kent88]

 

[NGD]

@bleme The article you posted was written about the time my buddy let me test drive his 2012 Leaf. He was telling me at the time how he noticed his battery was starting to degrade. He got it replaced a few months later under warranty and told me it would have cost $6k if it had been out of pocket. Its still his daily commuter and hasnt had any issues since. According to him, just charging at home means an extra $20-40/mo on their electric bill with SoCal Edison rates. With the exception of the battery, He’s essentially done nothing to the car other than A set of brake pads and a few sets of tires. A set of pads will generally last 60-100k if your careful with the regen.

As for a used Prius, I’ve come across these videos that might be worth a watch.
Chrisfix:


Savage Scotty

 

[AzOr]

Ask taxi drivers if the Prius battery is an issue. I talked to a driver on my way to airport and the Prius we were in had just shy of 300k miles on the original battery.
he said that when it needs changing there are cheaper batteries available andthe cost of replacing is less than $1,500. I’m assuming he gets a discount but that’s still far from the belief that they only last 150k miles and replacement batts cost 6k.

 

[AzOr]

@bleme The article you posted was written about the time my buddy let me test drive his 2012 Leaf. He was telling me at the time how he noticed his battery was starting to degrade. He got it replaced a few months later under warranty and told me it would have cost $6k if it had been out of pocket. Its still his daily commuter and hasnt had any issues since. According to him, just charging at home means an extra $20-40/mo on their electric bill with SoCal Edison rates. With the exception of the battery, He’s essentially done nothing to the car other than A set of brake pads and a few sets of tires. A set of pads will generally last 60-100k if your careful with the regen.

As for a used Prius, I’ve come across these videos that might be worth a watch.
Chrisfix:


Savage Scotty

I actually like watching his videos but the guy is all over the map when it comes to his advice.

 

[bleme]

Ask taxi drivers if the Prius battery is an issue. I talked to a driver on my way to airport and the Prius we were in had just shy of 300k miles on the original battery.
he said that when it needs changing there are cheaper batteries available andthe cost of replacing is less than $1,500. I’m assuming he gets a discount but that’s still far from the belief that they only last 150k miles and replacement batts cost 6k.

The Craigslist seller quotes:
A 1-Year warranty ($950).
A 2-Year warranty ($1275)
A 3-Year warranty ($1550).
A 4-Year warranty ($1900).
And a 5-Year warranty ($2399).

But with a Prius you also have to figure all the ICE side too, so it isn't as easy to calculate as a pure EV.

 

[NGD]

@Kent88 thank you for posting that video. They essentially came to the same conclusion I did as to why we went with Hybrid vs full-EV. My recent trip to west Yellowstone in an older Camry averaged 75 mph. Those speeds combined with the Nevada and Idaho desert temps would have meant plenty of charging time instead of a quick stop to fill up and go. Even in the Prime, the engine kicks on at 85. I have to say Toyota really screwed up with their dash display compared to most other EVs. Theres hardly any useful info regarding operating temps, battery capacity vs charge etc. its like PEV for
idiots. Unless theres a scary light flashing, dont worry bout it.

@AzOr Which video, Chris or Scotty? Also I think you might be getting the battery prices between a Prius and a Leaf mixed. I believe the standard prius has a 4.5kWh battery. My prime has an 8.8kWh. I think the leaf battery is 3X larger than the Prime. Still, $4500 for a new prius battery is steep.

 

[AzOr]

@Kent88 thank you for posting that video. They essentially came to the same conclusion I did as to why we went with Hybrid vs full-EV. My recent trip to west Yellowstone in an older Camry averaged 75 mph. Those speeds combined with the Nevada and Idaho desert temps would have meant plenty of charging time instead of a quick stop to fill up and go. Even in the Prime, the engine kicks on at 85. I have to say Toyota really screwed up with their dash display compared to most other EVs. Theres hardly any useful info regarding operating temps, battery capacity vs charge etc. its like PEV for
idiots. Unless theres a scary light flashing, dont worry bout it.

@AzOr Which video, Chris or Scotty? Also I think you might be getting the battery prices between a Prius and a Leaf mixed. I believe the standard prius has a 4.5kWh battery. My prime has an 8.8kWh. I think the leaf battery is 3X larger than the Prime. Still, $4500 for a new prius battery is steep.

I was referring to Scotty’s videos. I didn’t watch this clip but have seen his videos on the Prius where he stated the cost of batteries at 4 or 5k (going by memory).
I guess my point is that if cabbies are using them with well over 200k in original batteries, I wouldn’t hesitate to pick up an older used Prius if I were looking for a commuter.
In fact, a couple of years ago my wife was looking for a car and we were on the lookout for a Prius V because we needed the extra space. They were hard to find on the used market compared to the regular sized Prius. She ended up getting an ICE Camry.

 

[RePete]

The Nissan Leafs are fairly notorious for battery degradation, aren't they? They don't have a system to manage battery temperature, while other EVs do. I have seen used ones advertised locally for low prices, and have assumed the battery was shot. Might still be ok for making short trips.

 

[Kent88]

@Kent88 thank you for posting that video. They essentially came to the same conclusion I did as to why we went with Hybrid vs full-EV. My recent trip to west Yellowstone in an older Camry averaged 75 mph. Those speeds combined with the Nevada and Idaho desert temps would have meant plenty of charging time instead of a quick stop to fill up and go. Even in the Prime, the engine kicks on at 85.

EVs have room for improvement when considering road trips. They're getting there. But it's why I went with a Volt. My spouse and I test drove a Bolt, but when I did the math I discovered that we couldn't drive to and from our hometowns on a single charge, and we couldn't charge up enough on 110v in a weekend to make it back, and we didn't think we could convince our parents to install fast chargers. So the range extender made sense.

Since then I discovered that her hometown put in a convenient public fast charger (it might even be free). My hometown still lacks one. Or at least the right one, there is a Tesla charger that we could use, but it still isn't that convenient and the only thing I would consider overpaying Elon for is a solar roof. But that's another topic.

My Volt, though, functions as an EV an overwhelming majority of the time March through November. In the time I have owned it it has made only two trips a Bolt couldn't have handled without spending significant time at a level two charger. And both those trips could have easily been handled by our Jeep.

 

[NGD]

My thoughts exactly. Until there is an evolution in battery technology and charge times; EVs will be better served for errands and short trips.

I remember driving by this last year. Family was in an ICE camry at 80mph with 200mi left in the tank.
More Teslas on the Road Meant Hours-Long Supercharger Lines Over Thanksgiving

 

[Bilsch]

Sorry, my mistake in omitting nuclear..... Semantics...
Point is that only 17% of the electricity to recharge your electric vehicle comes from renewable energy sources.

And show me where lithium batteries are at least mostly recyclable.

May I direct you to your own post, #101, where you mentioned EV carbon footprint. Last time I checked nuclear does not produce any carbon emissions so... thats 39% of the grid that is not producing CO2. I'm a big fan of Nuclear precisely because it isn't causing global warming. I think we should have more electricity made this way.

Ok how about this place.
https://www.retrievtech.com/lithiumionor this one
https://www.batteryrecyclersofamerica.com/electrical-vehicle-battery-recycling/or here
https://cleanlites.com/our-services/battery-recycling/lithium-ion-battery-recycling

 

[Kent88]

My thoughts exactly. Until there is an evolution in battery technology and charge times; EVs will be better served for errands and short trips.

Depends on your definition of "short", I suppose. I think one really has to look at what their existing vehicle does, where they typically drive in a week, how frequently they have an outlier week where they need to drive further, what their charging options are, and what EVs are capable of handling that.

To limit EVs to errands and short trips risks selling EVs short

And there is some pretty cool battery tech on the horizon. I'm sure it is obvious right now that I mostly follow GM, and it sounds like they're about two years away from a huge improvement in their batteries.

 

[Kent88]

Electric Jeeps reportedly coming to the US, will be more capable than gas or diesel

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

My thoughts exactly. Until there is an evolution in battery technology and charge times; EVs will be better served for errands and short trips.

Depends on your definition of "short", I suppose. I think one really has to look at what their existing vehicle does, where they typically drive in a week, how frequently they have an outlier week where they need to drive further, what their charging options are, and what EVs are capable of handling that.

Also note that there's always the option of a rental car. As I mentioned, my current life doesn't allow for an EV. There are just none in the size/price/capability class that I could have one for a daily driver. But when the kids are out of the house, or if EV options proliferate to allow for a 3-row vehicle in a reasonable price range, it could come into play.

So then I look at it as a question... Let's say once or twice a year I'm going to be making a long-distance road trip where I don't want the time penalty of charging. For me, that trip is from SoCal to Southern Oregon. 800 miles each way, can be done in under 12 hours counting gas/food/potty stops, but not including charging. Is the cost of rental cheap enough where I can justify renting a car given the savings I might be getting for driving an EV otherwise?

Right now, no. My used low-miles Ford Flex Limited was $26K. Even counting all the gas I'll spend on that for its lifetime, it's a better financial play than either a Tesla Model X or an Audi Etron, the vehicles that size-wise are (sorta but not quite) in its comparables.

But when we're empty-nesters, when EV costs come down, maybe it'll make sense for me to get an EV as an around-town vehicle and if once or twice a year I need to rent a car to go the long haul, then so be it.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

@bleme I get where you're coming from. As it relates to a pure cost perspective, and probably to an environmental perspective, buying a cheaper high-MPG high-mileage used car like a Honda Civic is probably a better idea than an EV. You'll never recoup the cost of a Tesla vs a <$5K Civic in gas prices, and if you're buying a used car, all of the environmental damage of producing the car is a sunk cost that isn't your responsibility.

That said, from the perspective of the average American, who replaces their car more frequently and doesn't buy high-mileage used cars, the calculation is completely different. Someone who is looking for a brand new BMW 325i might be also looking at a Tesla Model 3, and that consumer will be making decisions on a completely different basis than you are.

That's not to say you're wrong! Buying cheap used cars and driving them until they die is probably the cheapest mode of transportation that exists, and I'm not sure it's environmentally a bad option--if there was no market for those cars, we'd have to build new ones which is environmentally damaging. But your situation is different than a lot of people, and it would be good for you to factor that into your discussion on the topic...

 

[Kent88]

Well, hadn't thought of rental cars for those outliers.

I could've bought a Bolt after all. As I've said, my wife and I almost never go on road trips at the same time, and we already have a big Jeep that we are used to taking on road trips.

It's exceptionally rare that neither of our vehicles are within 40 miles of our house. So yeah, a rental car for a road trip once every few years, it's worth considering. At least in my case.

Not that I'm looking to buy/trade anytime soon. Neither of my vehicles have hit 30,000 miles yet.

 

[RePete]

Well, hadn't thought of rental cars for those outliers.

I could've bought a Bolt after all. As I've said, my wife and I almost never go on road trips at the same time, and we already have a big Jeep that we are used to taking on road trips.

It's exceptionally rare that neither of our vehicles are within 40 miles of our house. So yeah, a rental car for a road trip once every few years, it's worth considering. At least in my case.

Not that I'm looking to buy/trade anytime soon. Neither of my vehicles have hit 30,000 miles yet.

My friend who bought a Bolt said from the start that he would rent a car if needed for a long trip. So far he hasn’t needed one.

I was just reading about a Volt that has 468k miles on the odometer. I think they will hold up well. The tax credit was a big incentive for me, and the main reason I went ahead and bought another. Otherwise I would still be driving the first one. I will probably keep this one and drive it for a long time.

 

[Kent88]

Is the tax credit still going for the Bolt? Do you know if the upcoming Bolt EUV be considered a different enough vehicle that it gets the full tax credit, or do existing Bolt sales count against it?

 

[NGD]

I believe the federal tax credits for chevy are either very reduced or have run out. State and local tax credits are likely a different story. It was one of the reasons we bought last Sept instead of waiting a longer. Saved us a few pennies

 

[RePete]

I believe the federal tax credits for chevy are either very reduced or have run out. State and local tax credits are likely a different story. It was one of the reasons we bought last Sept instead of waiting a longer. Saved us a few pennies

That is correct. Chevy has used up all of their credits as of about March 2020. Even then they were reduced from the full credit.