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Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

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Do you have an electric car or plan to get one?

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  • No

  • I plan to

  • Over my dead body


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Bilsch

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Here are a few items from a guy who just retired from teaching in the Sustainability/Renewable Energy area.

1. Electric isn't truly "green" unless two things happen: first, the power that charges it comes from a green source, not coal fired, not nat gas, and second, that the power and resources used to make the car are green (same issue).
2. It takes energy to make an energy-efficient vehicle. There's a term for it, called "embodied energy." If you replace an ICE car with an electric, you may be greener, but only after you make up for all the energy it took to make the vehicle.
3. The problem of how long until charge is called "Range Anxiety." It's much better. With ranges exceeding 300 miles today, most electric cars pass the "everyday use" test. What they aren't as good for is extended trips.
4. Many have, and others will, have a multiple-vehicle family with an electric vehicle for everyday things, and an ICE car for longer trips. About the longest trip I make is maybe 300 miles round-trip, which is in the range of many electric cars.
5. As ranges of EVs have increased, "range anxiety" is being supplanted by "charge anxiety." If one doesn't have a convenient access to charging while on the road, and charging that is relatively fast, then it's also an issue.
And here's the biggest issue of all, IMO:
As a class assignment, I had my students figure out the gasoline-price break-even point, i.e., how high would gas prices have to rise for the monthly cost to break even.
You have to make some assumptions to do this. I told them 12000 miles annually, the price of the EV (Chevy Bolt at the time) was about $35k, the price of a comparable ICE car similar to a Ford Focus was $20,000. We assumed a 6-year loan with something like $3k down on each.
I figured something like an average of 30mpg on the Focus (I own one, that's why I used it), and factored in the electricity charging costs of the EV. I added a couple oil changes a year for the Focus. My insurance agent insisted the annual costs to insure both where the same, but I don't really believe that. A totaled $35k car should cost more to insure than a $20k car, but we used equal insurance anyway.
Guess how high gas prices would have to rise for the montly cost to break even? You will not believe it.
$9.32 per gallon.
Yeah. About impossible to believe, but do the math. People think they're saving a ton of money with these things, but they never are. There are also end-of-life costs such as whether the battery needs replacement after 7 years, and so on.
Now, you cannot do these kinds of problems without making some assumptions; you can fill in your own as you like. But the numbers we used were not outlandish, and making some changes here or there wouldn't change the results all that much.
In the end, would I buy one? Yeah. Maybe. Possibly. If the price comes down.
I must respectfully disagree with your assumptions and findings.

1) The grid isn't either all green or all fossil fuel but instead a mix. Currently the US is powered by:
62.7% fossil fuels, 19.7% nuclear and 17.5% renewable energy. Even if an EV only achieved comparable mileage to an ICE, right out of the gate you would be producing 37.2% less carbon than a gas or diesel vehicle. Now add the fact that EV's are, at the minimum, 2 times more efficient at turning an equivalent amount of mined energy into road miles you can quickly see that electric cars are much more environmentally friendly then combustion engine powered vehicles, even plugged into the dirtiest of grids.

2) You are using old data to make your point here as these days the amount of energy to make an ICE car is right about on par with EV vehicles. What you fail to factor in is the extra amount of carbon and other noxious gasses that ICE will spew out during it's lifetime that the EV will not which has a huge cost to society. Also consider that with electric the power generation is done out side of cities and is not coming from the tailpipe ahead of you on the road. Did anyone happen to catch the pictures taken recently of major metropolitan areas during the last covid shutdown where you could see the skyline in blue and not orange smog haze? Again even if EV's were only equally efficient to ICE cars, what value is not having to suck on that tail pipe in front of you?

3) I have zero range anxiety. I can go 270 miles in a charge and fill up at 150kw+ and be on my way in about the time it takes to get a coffee and use the restroom. The newer models have much bigger batteries and even faster charging (250kw) making this whole range/charge anxiety a thing of the past.

4) I think your assumptions were based on old technology and you also forgot to factor in maintenance which is a huge chunk of the cost of owning an ICE car. The web is littered with sites comparing ICE costs to EV. Here is is a comprehensive study out of Canada comparing the total costs of ICE and EV for your students to check their work against. By the way the EV's compared in this study are older and not terribly efficient ones either.


The average 10 year savings from EV ownership is $26,900 Canadian. Not an insignificant amount thats for sure. Add to that the long term costs of damaging the environment, EV's are a no brainer.

And lastly, owning and EV gives you a choice in where your power comes from. Adding solar is the absolute cheapest way to drive with the huge benefit of being positive you are not sending a penny directly or indirectly to the Middle east, Russia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Angola or any number of places where your petrodollar might find it's way back to hurt you.
 
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RePete

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I have to add this: I switched to electric brewing, oh, a year or two ago. I had a 60-amp main-panel breaker feed a sub panel in my garage.

While the near-term reason for doing this was to provide a 30-amp 240-v power source for electric brewing, there was a secondary reason:

Charging an electric car.

I'm nowhere near buying one, and only when it makes financial sense will I do this, but one of the hidden costs--or maybe not so hidden--of owning an electric car is providing for charging facilities.

If and when.....I have power to the garage to accommodate a charging station. :)
See, I'm looking at this in the opposite direction. I'm looking to get 220V run to my garage so I can charge the car faster. With the added bonus of switching to a 220V brewing system.
But really, charging on 110V works fine. As long as you're not in a hurry. I usually get home by 6pm or so, plug it in, and have 60 miles of range by 7am the next morning.

The economics of this have changed, for me at least, since the pandemic hit. I'm not doing as much work, so I'm driving less. I'm all electric now, for the most part. The tax credit was a big factor, and that has gone away. So, not sure I would buy one now. But I have it, and it's a great car.

As far as the Volt goes, I feel lucky to have one. But I feel like Chevy really didn't want to sell them. I never saw a single ad on TV. I mean, you wouldn't even have known they made them unless you looked. Dealers didn't push them, because they don't need much maintenance, so they can't make money on service. It's just not a profit center. When I bought my last Volt, it wasn't even charged. They just put gas in it.

Car manufacturers make most of their profits on things like trucks. So that's why you see a dozen truck commercials during halftime of football games
 

mongoose33

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I must respectfully disagree with your assumptions and findings.

1) The grid isn't either all green or all fossil fuel but instead a mix. Currently the US is powered by:
62.7% fossil fuels, 19.7% nuclear and 17.5% renewable energy. Even if an EV only achieved comparable mileage to an ICE, right out of the gate you would be producing 37.2% less carbon than a gas or diesel vehicle. Now add the fact that EV's are, at the minimum, 2 times more efficient at turning an equivalent amount of mined energy into road miles you can quickly see that electric cars are much more environmentally friendly then combustion engine powered vehicles, even plugged into the dirtiest of grids.
Well, you make the argument as one of degrees. I'm pointing out that assumptions people make are not usually correct. And yes, an electron doesn't know how it was generated, but if your electricity is 30 percent produced by coal, then you're 30 percent coal-dirty.

The point is that buying an electric car doesn't magically make you "green." You're more greenish, but the virtue signaling by some people makes you think they believe they're saving the world. No.

2) You are using old data to make your point here as these days the amount of energy to make an ICE car is right about on par with EV vehicles. What you fail to factor in is the extra amount of carbon and other noxious gasses that ICE will spew out during it's lifetime that the EV will not which has a huge cost to society. Also consider that with electric the power generation is done out side of cities and is not coming from the tailpipe ahead of you on the road. Did anyone happen to catch the pictures taken recently of major metropolitan areas during the last covid shutdown where you could see the skyline in blue and not orange smog haze? Again even if EV's were only equally efficient to ICE cars, what value is not having to suck on that tail pipe in front of you?
Well, I don't think it's old data. If you take a car that is perfectly fine and replace it with an electric vehicle, you're using energy to do it.

I'm not saying there aren't pollution advantages, but if your electricity is all produced from coal, all you're doing is changing the point source. It might make city air cleaner, but that dirt is going into the atmosphere somewhere.

3) I have zero range anxiety. I can go 270 miles in a charge and fill up at 150kw+ and be on my way in about the time it takes to get a coffee and use the restroom. The newer models have much bigger batteries and even faster charging (250kw) making this whole range/charge anxiety a thing of the past.
That's good. Not all people feel that way. As I noted above, 300 miles range will do what most people need. But not all such cars have that range. At some point these issues will fade, but they remain a problem in many people's minds. For me, a 300-mile range would work just fine. The two trips that wouldn't come under that range limit could be done with an ICE car, or I could wait around for it to partially recharge.

4) I think your assumptions were based on old technology and you also forgot to factor in maintenance which is a huge chunk of the cost of owning an ICE car. The web is littered with sites comparing ICE costs to EV. Here is is a comprehensive study out of Canada comparing the total costs of ICE and EV for your students to check their work against. By the way the EV's compared in this study are older and not terribly efficient ones either.
New cars don't have a lot of maintenance. I went 5 years before any significant repairs on my 2014 Focus. Brakes and tires, sure, but the only major repair was covered under warranty. It is true that older cars have more repairs, but most older cars don't have large monthly payments.

And it's not like electric cars don't have any maintenance.


The average 10 year savings from EV ownership is $26,900 Canadian. Not an insignificant amount thats for sure. Add to that the long term costs of damaging the environment, EV's are a no brainer.
There is potentially a long-term advantage, but it depends on the assumptions you wish to make to make that point. Once you get past the amortization of the loan, fuel costs are very low for an EV, but when gasoline prices are low, not so much. You also have to factor in how much MORE you pay in the early years of an EV.

I'm not anti-EV--but what I am is a realist. It's not a panacea. There are energy and pollution costs in making them. There are pollution costs in charging them. And they're generally more expensive, especially early in the life cycle. That in itself is the difference between people buying them and not.

When the cost approximates an ICE, I'll likely get one--though right now I probably wouldn't. My Focus is paid off, works great, gets great mileage, and serves my needs.

And lastly, owning and EV gives you a choice in where your power comes from. Adding solar is the absolute cheapest way to drive with the huge benefit of being positive you are not sending a penny directly or indirectly to the Middle east, Russia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Angola or any number of places where your petrodollar might find it's way back to hurt you.
With respect, electrons don't know where they're from. And while EV enthusiasts tend to focus on the cost of fuel per mile to drive, you have to look at the whole picture, including the up front costs. When you do that, some of the shine comes off EV ownership.
 

mongoose33

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See, I'm looking at this in the opposite direction. I'm looking to get 220V run to my garage so I can charge the car faster. With the added bonus of switching to a 220V brewing system.
But really, charging on 110V works fine. As long as you're not in a hurry. I usually get home by 6pm or so, plug it in, and have 60 miles of range by 7am the next morning.
:) :) So you bought an electric car to justify electric brewing. I love it! :) :)

The economics of this have changed, for me at least, since the pandemic hit. I'm not doing as much work, so I'm driving less. I'm all electric now, for the most part. The tax credit was a big factor, and that has gone away. So, not sure I would buy one now. But I have it, and it's a great car.
Not driving as much either. Oddly--this is only tangentially related--apparently vehicle fatalities have stayed steady despite total miles driven having dropped something like 25 percent. Apparently people are driving faster on less-crowded roads....

As far as the Volt goes, I feel lucky to have one. But I feel like Chevy really didn't want to sell them. I never saw a single ad on TV. I mean, you wouldn't even have known they made them unless you looked. Dealers didn't push them, because they don't need much maintenance, so they can't make money on service. It's just not a profit center. When I bought my last Volt, it wasn't even charged. They just put gas in it.
You know, I never really thought about it until now, but I don't really remember any marketing for the Volt. Can't even call it a loss leader. Makes one wonder what the point was.
 

tellyho

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No long distance driving here. Have a 9 year old Mazda 2 that's barely past 60K. So, prime for electric replacement when it dies. Hell, I'm a bike commuter, so my other car barely moves during the week.
 

Bilsch

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Well, you make the argument as one of degrees. I'm pointing out that assumptions people make are not usually correct. And yes, an electron doesn't know how it was generated, but if your electricity is 30 percent produced by coal, then you're 30 percent coal-dirty. The point is that buying an electric car doesn't magically make you "green." You're more greenish, but the virtue signaling by some people makes you think they believe they're saving the world. No.
I guess I don't understand your logic. Do you believe that burning 100% oil is better than 30 % coal? Maybe you missed the part about EV's being twice as efficient as well. And that point source, the power generation station, has equipment which is much better at extracting the energy from the fuel it burns then your gas car is. It also has much lower emissions per fuel unit consumed because of higher temperature combustion, heat recovery and emissions scrubbing. Don't get me wrong it is by no means clean but even the electricity from 100% coal going to an EV produces less emissions then a gas car. It's proven science. Not greenish, greener! I don't think I am saving the world, it's simply about reducing my footprint and saving money in the process. How praytell could anyone think that was bad?

Most problems are solved in steps and this one is no different.

New cars don't have a lot of maintenance. I went 5 years before any significant repairs on my 2014 Focus. Brakes and tires, sure, but the only major repair was covered under warranty. It is true that older cars have more repairs, but most older cars don't have large monthly payments.
And it's not like electric cars don't have any maintenance.
You are speaking in absolutes. ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts, EV's around 20. It's just a simpler machine that takes less service and saves money. No matter how you view it, electric cars are a lot cheaper to run.

There is potentially a long-term advantage, but it depends on the assumptions you wish to make to make that point. Once you get past the amortization of the loan, fuel costs are very low for an EV, but when gasoline prices are low, not so much.
My EV is not small but still gets 120 MPGe. Have you seen any gas for sale at 50 cents a gallon recently?

You also have to factor in how much MORE you pay in the early years of an EV.
Did you even take a minute to look at that study I posted, or any data on the actual costs of EV vs ICE? On average for the first 3 years an EV will cost more simply because of their higher purchase price. Then you reach the inflection point, after which after it's all savings, a lot of savings. I tend to think out past 3 years when buying a car and that is a lot of cash that stays in my pocket for the lifetime of a vehicle.

Here is another comparison study for you on the cost of ownership in case you didn't like that last one.


"the 5 year cost of ownership of the Model 3 came to $30,002, the 5 year cost of ownership of the BMW 3 Series came to $49,292, and the 5 year cost of ownership of the BMW 4 Series came to $51,940."
 
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mongoose33

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I guess I don't understand your logic. Do you believe that burning 100% oil is better than 30 % coal? Maybe you missed the part about EV's being twice as efficient as well. And that point source, the power generation station, has equipment which is much better at extracting the energy from the fuel it burns then your gas car is. It also has much lower emissions per fuel unit consumed because of higher temperature combustion, heat recovery and emissions scrubbing. Don't get me wrong it is by no means clean but even the electricity from 100% coal going to an EV produces less emissions then a gas car. It's proven science. Not greenish, greener! I don't think I am saving the world, it's simply about reducing my footprint and saving money in the process. How praytell could anyone think that was bad?

Most problems are solved in steps and this one is no different.



You are speaking in absolutes. ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts, EV's around 20. It's just a simpler machine that takes less service and saves money. No matter how you view it, electric cars are a lot cheaper to run.



My EV is not small but still gets 120 MPGe. Have you seen any gas for sale at 50 cents a gallon recently?



Did you even take a minute to look at that study I posted, or any data on the actual costs of EV vs ICE? On average for the first 3 years an EV will cost more simply because of their higher purchase price. Then you reach the inflection point, after which after it's all savings, a lot of savings. I tend to think out past 3 years when buying a car and that is a lot of cash that stays in my pocket for the lifetime of a vehicle.

Here is another comparison study for you on the cost of ownership in case you didn't like that last one.


"the 5 year cost of ownership of the Model 3 came to $30,002, the 5 year cost of ownership of the BMW 3 Series came to $49,292, and the 5 year cost of ownership of the BMW 4 Series came to $51,940."
We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Never have I said EVs aren't more "fuel efficient." But the true believers tend to gloss over the issues related to these things, which I stated pretty clearly above, I thought.

For instance, you may think you're being completely green running an EV, but not if your electricity source is fossil fuels. Now, that statement stands on its own; the virtue signalers who think they're being simon pure, well, they're not. Same with the embodied energy needed to make them.

Further, it's generally MUCH more expensive to run an EV, including amortization costs, in the early years of ownership. That's just a fact. As I noted above, people can spend their money as they wish, and if you wish to spend more on transportation, that's your choice. But let's not ignore this crucial element.

Another issue is range anxiety. For you, not an issue. If I had an EV w/ range of 300+ miles, I'd be satisfied. But not everybody is like this. The objective reality gives way to perceptions of reality, and if people perceive there to be range issues, then for practical purposes there ARE range issues. Perception IS reality in instances like this, because people's behavior treats these perceptions as real, and they act on those perceptions.

******

In the end, if EVs were so attractive, people would be buying them in droves. They aren't, which tells me that, in some combination, they're too expensive, haven't enough range, can't be readily or easily charged in many cases. If those things aren't true, then the marketers aren't being effective.

That these aren't issues for you doesn't mean they aren't for others. They are.

I always taught that the moment these issues flipped, people would be on EVs. Those conditions are closer to being flipped, but not there yet. It's why I always told my students to "pencil it out" because assumptions change, elements of the equation change, and nothing is permanent.

The moment that EVs make more sense for me than driving my Focus, I'll be all over them. I'd like a Kia Soul EV. My son has a Soul, it's easy to get in and out of, funky-looking car but very functional given my needs.

The range of the Soul EV has gone from 111 mi (2019) to 234 mi (2020). So it's getting closer to my 300-mile range, but not there yet. Meanwhile, I'm driving a paid-off Focus that gets 40+ on the highway. I'd have to trade that for a BIG car payment. No thanks.

Your conclusions may be different.
 

mattdee1

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In the end, if EVs were so attractive, people would be buying them in droves. They aren't, which tells me that, in some combination, they're too expensive, haven't enough range, can't be readily or easily charged in many cases. If those things aren't true, then the marketers aren't being effective.

This statement seems to be ignoring the psychology. People fear the unknown, especially when large amounts of money are involved. This creates market inertia. I wouldn't be surprised to see sales of e-vehicles rise steadily as more and more of the old guard moves on and the younger generation starts to buy cars.

Hey, I drive a Mustang, so I'm no poster child for green transportation. But I work directly in the industry and can see the amount of investment that is being made into e-vehicles; most people probably wouldn't believe it unless they saw it. I'm not ready to go electric quite yet, but I'm definitely intrigued.

What I find unfortunate about the discourse on this subject is the ever-present Nirvana fallacy - basically saying that if e-vehicles don't completely wipe out emissions then they're failing to deliver on their promise. That's the wrong way of looking at it, IMO. We have to account for gradual improvements over time. That includes in areas such as battery recycling, etc. The IC engine powertrains have a 100-year head start on R&D.
 

CKuhns

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Interesting debate /\ - As range increases, charge time reduces, cost reduces and gas and diesel become more expensive AND us older folks fall off the earth the market will very likely shift. The value Perceived (It makes me feel good and I want it) or Actual (I saved some $$$ and it meets my needs) either or both must be there before the consumer will purchase anything.

For me at this time driving distances are too far for an electric to be feasible. If battery technology or motor efficiency could double the miles per charge then I'm more likely to be in.
 

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Tesla Cybertruck
The Tesla Cybertruck is interesting. The fact that it won't be painted and that the metal will be folded instead of stamped will greatly simplify manufacturing. This article explains about it.
 

day_trippr

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When I was 16 one could buy a pretty good half ton pickup truck, brand new - WITH TIRES - for under two grand.

I am clearly hella old...
 

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Hole Lee Cow.
When I was 16 one could buy a pretty good half ton pickup truck, brand new - WITH TIRES - for under two grand.

I am clearly hella old...
And a six pack was $2.50
Happy days.
 

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Not sure how to answer the pole as I know a new ev would never be in my future nor would a used ev. Who buys a used battery?

Now, if an old ugly busted pickup truck pulls up next to you and just happens to be real quit while it smokes your ass. Well, maybe I've gone ev.:bigmug:
 

bwarbiany

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I didn't vote in the poll, because there's a good chance my next vehicle purchase will be EV... But the time horizon is ~6-7 years out before I'll be purchasing again.

Right now my daily driver is a Ford Flex because I've got a wife, three kids, and an 80+ lb dog. That car is a 2014 (bought used in 2017), and my goal is to keep it until my eldest goes to college (he's about to enter 7th grade).

If I was buying today, I wouldn't yet go EV. They're still too expensive, there are very few options (Tesla + who?), and the charging infrastructure isn't there yet. And since I rent, I don't want to pay to put a charger in my garage and I know my landlord won't do it.

6-7 years from now I think all of those problems will be solved. We'll have compelling EV options from a half dozen manufacturers at least, the prices should get more reasonable, and the charging infrastructure will be more ubiquitous. And I should be a homeowner again by that time, so I can put a charger in my house (and potentially solar, depending how things go in that industry).

So I see the advantages going forward, but the industry isn't quite ready yet, which is good because I'm not quite ready yet.
 

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Bilsch

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Funny how there have so been many hit pieces against EV’s funded by the oil industry lately. Think they might be getting worried?
 

Bilsch

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This is an argumentum ad hominem fallacy and doesn't address any of the facts in the article. Try again. Better yet, move it to the debate forum.
Fair enough. How is this?
 

kh54s10

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I may some day but the cost is still too high and the total effect on being green is not as good as they say. It takes a lot of electric use to make up for the carbon footprint of producing the car and charging it. Then there is the problem of the batteries. What do you do with the toxic waste of spent batteries.
 

Bilsch

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I may some day but the cost is still too high and the total effect on being green is not as good as they say. It takes a lot of electric use to make up for the carbon footprint of producing the car and charging it. Then there is the problem of the batteries. What do you do with the toxic waste of spent batteries.
That is just not true. An electric vehicles total life cycle emissions are much less then ICE cars. The batteries once spent contain the exact same materials they started with, in the same form and are fully recyclable. The damage being caused to the earth from burning oil is what is killing us and yet people worry about batteries.
 
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bleme

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Fair enough. How is this?
That is certainly a step in the right direction, but it is still hard to compare to the Forbes article. I could only find one 'fact' that they disagree about though. Forbes states that an EV requires 16,000 more pounds of CO2 (114%) to manufacture than an ICE vehicle does, citing a 2012 peer-reviewed Yale study. UCS states that it is only 15%, and only cites themselves. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen an article written by scientists to be so lacking in citations.

UCS adds a lot of 'spin' to their data. For instance, when talking about how efficient EV's are, they use the lowest range, most efficient model, but when talking about ICE gas mileage, they average in low efficiency trucks and vans (which have no EV alternative) to bring the average down.

It is refreshing that they state their bias right in their motto while Forbes bias is much harder to discern.
1596656556746.png

Personally, I love the idea of EV's. I started reading everything I could find on Tesla before they even produced their first car. But I've never spent more than $3500 on a car, and don't plan to change that any time soon, so I'm guessing it will be a long while before I actually own one.

That is just not true. An electric vehicles total life cycle emissions are much less then ICE cars. The batteries once spent contain the exact same materials they started with, in the same form and are fully recyclable. The damage being caused to the earth from burning oil is what is killing us and yet people worry about batteries.
The UCS article you posted cited their own 2015 article which stated:
Optimizing EV production and the disposal or reuse of batteries could further increase their environmental benefits.
That doesn't sound like the batteries are being fully recycled to me.
 

Bilsch

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Personally, I love the idea of EV's. I started reading everything I could find on Tesla before they even produced their first car. But I've never spent more than $3500 on a car, and don't plan to change that any time soon, so I'm guessing it will be a long while before I actually own one.


The UCS article you posted cited their own 2015 article which stated:

That doesn't sound like the batteries are being fully recycled to me.
That article is getting dated. Tesla and BMW have since set up their own battery recycling centers. For the time being though very few are actually being taken apart for recycling, but instead are sent for use in grid storage projects where the slightly degraded capacity does not matter. Anytime an EV hits the junk yard, the batteries are the first thing to get sold to people making their own home power storage. That is one big reason there are low numbers of these units that turn up as waste.

But even if that were not the case and all the batteries were chucked into the landfill, that pollution would be a tiny fraction of a minuscule fraction of the pollutants spewing out each day from oil burning.
 

ehall

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stuff to think about...
 

Bilsch

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stuff to think about...

"Eric Peters
Libertarian Car Guy and refugee from DC. Vulture of the Western World. Author of Automotive Atrocities and Road Hogs. Face Diaper Refusenik."

Yes, certainly stuff to think about.
 

bleme

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I found a 2005 Prius for $1500 on Craigslist. Something was wrong with the battery so it only ran on gas, so that probably doesn't count...
 

kh54s10

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That is just not true. An electric vehicles total life cycle emissions are much less then ICE cars. The batteries once spent contain the exact same materials they started with, in the same form and are fully recyclable. The damage being caused to the earth from burning oil is what is killing us and yet people worry about batteries.

You are totally misinformed..... Electric vehicles are recharged off the electric grid. At least 80% is still produced with coal, oil or natural gas. So there is a lot of carbon footprint there. Batteries contain lithium..... It is a hazardous waste that is not easily disposed of and not recyclable.....
 

Bilsch

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You are totally misinformed..... Electric vehicles are recharged off the electric grid. At least 80% is still produced with coal, oil or natural gas. So there is a lot of carbon footprint there. Batteries contain lithium..... It is a hazardous waste that is not easily disposed of and not recyclable.....
I have to wonder where you get your information because most of this is easy to find out from multiple sources with a few minutes googling. Here, for instance, is a government website that documents pretty plainly where our electricity comes from. 61% is from dead dinosaurs and not 80% also since powering an EV from even the dirtiest electricity is twice as clean as burning the fuel directly in the car.. I'd say thats a pretty amazing step forward from internal combustion.

As for lithium batteries being haz .. are you saying that oil, it's fractioned products, chemicals used in its refining and the gasses that come from your tail pipe are not hazardous and or somehow less of a problem then EV waste?

In case you wondered how they handle the spent batteries from EV's that are not reused in stationary power.. It's taken to a facility that freezes the cells to make them safe then shreds and separates the remainder into chemicals that go right back into new batteries or other products. The stuff that is in there is worth money, lots of money and they don't toss it away.
 
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Kent88

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I heard this argument a few times when I bought my Volt, "Why are you buying one? They can't be that good if Chevy is discontinuing them". Thing is, when the Volt was killed, so were other GM cars, like the Impala. This wasn't necessarily a problem with the Volt itself, but likely a problem with cars. People are buying Crossovers and SUVs.

As for batteries, I have a buddy who is a big EV / renewable energies enthusiast who follows this stuff better than I do. A year or two ago he got all excited because he found that when EV batteries were no longer road worthy they could still be used in other applications. I'm not going to look around for info myself, but re-purposing EV batteries makes sense.


That was just one of the first results I got googling.

Experts are working on how to recycle EV batteries when they completely fail. Sure, it is expensive now, but that'll change as they learn more about it and then scale up the process.

I do like to think that I've reduced my carbon footprint with this car, but I've accepted that most of my power likely comes from a coal power plant. I figure that I've diversified my fuel source, I can run by solar, wind, coal, natural gas, so it frees up gasoline for the people who need it, because I don't need to be burning gasoline to go to the grocery store. I'll save the gasoline for the work vehicles, or the ones that are towing. I grew up on a farm, I still have family in production agriculture. Electric tractors aren't right around the corner.

I enjoy the free charging station at my grocery store, and I appreciate that I don't have to mess with gas pumps which is beneficial because I'm not buying near as much junk food as I used to (saving money and eating healthier) and I don't have to touch a potentially covid infected gasoline dispenser. I do an overwhelming majority of my charging in my garage, and public charger plug-ins are a lot easier to wipe off with a disinfecting wipe than gasoline dispensers.

And I'll look forward to installing solar panels at my house one day, so I can feel like I'm charging with clean solar energy.
 

kh54s10

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I have to wonder where you get your information because most of this is easy to find out from multiple sources with a few minutes googling. Here, for instance, is a government website that documents pretty plainly where our electricity comes from. 61% is from dead dinosaurs and not 80% also since powering an EV from even the dirtiest electricity is twice as clean as burning the fuel directly in the car.. I'd say thats a pretty amazing step forward from internal combustion.

As for lithium batteries being haz .. are you saying that oil, it's fractioned products, chemicals used in its refining and the gasses that come from your tail pipe are not hazardous and or somehow less of a problem then EV waste?

In case you wondered how they handle the spent batteries from EV's that are not reused in stationary power.. It's taken to a facility that freezes the cells to make them safe then shreds and separates the remainder into chemicals that go right back into new batteries or other products. The stuff that is in there is worth money, lots of money and they don't toss it away.
Better read you own link. It shows that renewable energy only accounts for 17% . Oh I left out nuclear..... So my 80% was actually low.

As for lithium batteries I have read that they cannot recycle enough that it doesn't become a hazardous waste problem.

Then you totally discount the carbon footprint that occurs during the production of the car.

Yes fossil fuels are dirty. But electric vehicles are not as environmentally friendly as it is made out to be.
 

Bilsch

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Better read you own link. It shows that renewable energy only accounts for 17% . Oh I left out nuclear..... So my 80% was actually low.
As for lithium batteries I have read that they cannot recycle enough that it doesn't become a hazardous waste problem.
Then you totally discount the carbon footprint that occurs during the production of the car.
Yes fossil fuels are dirty. But electric vehicles are not as environmentally friendly as it is made out to be.
Haha not so fast. Here is the exact quote of what you said:
"You are totally misinformed..... Electric vehicles are recharged off the electric grid. At least 80% is still produced with coal, oil or natural gas."
Nice try though with the nuclear thing. ;)

Yea I also read that about lithium batteries not being recyclable.. in 2015. Things change, technology advances and we move forward. Well some of us anyway.
 

bleme

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The carbon footprint of the manufacturing or production of the vehicle is a wash if you’re comparing ICE to EV.
According to a peer reviewed study by Yale, the manufacture of an EV was more than double the carbon of an ICE vehicle. However, EV's won't become mainstream until they can sell to people who don't care about carbon at all.
 

Bilsch

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According to a peer reviewed study by Yale, the manufacture of an EV was more than double the carbon of an ICE vehicle. However, EV's won't become mainstream until they can sell to people who don't care about carbon at all.
This study was from 2012 and it’s really old news now. This industry moves fast so those numbers are useless.
 

Bilsch

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I’m sure there more than a few who preferred their gas lit horse and carriage ride while insisting that, over their dead body, would they ever buy a car.

There were an estimated 20 million horses in March 1915 in the United States.[36] A USDA census in 1959 showed the horse population had dropped to 4.5 million.
 
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bleme

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But they ended up buying those lights and cars because they became more efficient and convenient, not because some pseudo-religion told them that they had to.
 

Bilsch

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But they ended up buying those lights and cars because they became more efficient and convenient, not because some pseudo-religion told them that they had to.
Oh no.. you mean to tell me for these last 3 years I’ve only imagined not going to the gas station or auto repair shop? And I’m only hallucinating about the money I’m saving? Damn man... why’d you have to go and ruin my fantasy reality.
 
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