'New' Lallemand Yeasts - New England and Kolsch

[Jsmith2154]

I've never had an authentic Kolsch. I went to the yeast as I am looking for as little yeast character as possible but able to ferment at a higher temp. The way my temp control is I can hold in the mid 60's and crash to 60 but can't hold colder than that for a primary. So to me for my seasonable ales this yeast seemed like the way to go.

 

[ba-brewer]

I've been hunting for a go to kolsch yeast the last couple of months. I had been using WY2575 Kolsch II. But I'm running out of my slurry tubes and so looking for a more readily available strain since the WY is a PC strain. I thought Koln would be it but between this thread and the info on lallemand site I don't think it's going to cut it. Do I even try a batch with the 1yr old packet I got from morebeer? Anyone like 2565? I did see a couple votes for WLP029. Thoughts?
[/QUOTE

WLP029 is very clean and fast and drops like a rock, 2565 has a bit more character but is a bit slower to finish and does not flocculate very well.

There is a post near the beginning of this thread that has a link to another site with a side by side test and results. It seems like lallemand kolsch yeast is sort of somewhere between 2565 and wlp029 and would be worth a try. If you only have one packet of yeast I dont believe that is enough for a 5gal batch, so build it up or get another package.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Agree with the above, 029 is my house yeast, great strain, though 2565 is my fave for making kolsh. 029 is super clean, lets hops shine and drops bright. I use it a lot for blonde ales and hoppy apa’s. Did a stout with it that was very good. 2565 adds a characteristic wine/light fruit note to the beer and doesn’t want to clear haha.

A mate tried the dry koln yeast in a blonde ale, I drank it and it was very clean and crisp, though I prefer 029

 

[Jsmith2154]

I use it a lot for blonde ales and hoppy apa’s. Did a stout with it that was very good.

This sums up my brewing lately. I was a WL guy but switched to wyeast a couple years ago. Being as WL is semi local for me maybe I should give 029 a go.

 

[NSMikeD]

fwiw, I brewed a Kolsch on the 4th with the the Koln yeast and set my fermentor temp controller for 56° - 59° ambient. It took several days before I saw any action and then it took off nicely. So the slow start was my experience. It's too early to keg, so no report on the final outcome.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Worth noting that genome sequencing suggests WLP029 is S. pastorianus and most closely related to things like Wyeast 2206 Bavarian.

So some people would say that it's not kolsch if you use WLP029, as they define kolsch by whether it uses an ale strain or not. I don't agree with that POV, but I'm not going down that rabbit hole!!!

 

[Twinkeelfool]

This sums up my brewing lately. I was a WL guy but switched to wyeast a couple years ago. Being as WL is semi local for me maybe I should give 029 a go.

I really like it, easy to work with, clean and clears nicely. I don’t like us05, so I use this as my all round yeast, except for Belgians and UK ales.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Worth noting that genome sequencing suggests WLP029 is S. pastorianus and most closely related to things like Wyeast 2206 Bavarian.

So some people would say that it's not kolsch if you use WLP029, as they define kolsch by whether it uses an ale strain or not. I don't agree with that POV, but I'm not going down that rabbit hole!!!

I think 2565 is much better for kolsch than 029, I just like 029 for it’s clean and crisp flavour profile. And you need much less hops as it lets them shine

 

[thehaze]

I officially hate the lallemand Koln yeast. This batch is a dumper. It has clove in it. It was from an under pitch and massive lag time I’m assuming. Aka stressed yeast. Why sell this in dry yeast yeast form when you can just get liquid yeast and build a more viable starter/culture for a fraction of the cost? Well I guess the voss will be used this weekend and for German ale/kolsch it’s absolutely liquid yeast with starter or bust!

ps This would make a good American Hefeweizen strain as mentioned above. Kolsch...Absolutely not

You know what... I can't believe, I'm not the only one. I made a Kolsch with Lallemand Koln and it has a very saison-like aroma and flavour. And slightly over-carbonated. No way! I said to myself... My best guess was that it was contaminated. Never had it happen in 100 batches, but there could be a first time for everything. But then again, I brewed and drank 100 batches of beer and this never happened before. My process and sanitation is good, as I want my beer to turn out well. Here was the recipe:

50% Dingemans Pilsner + 50% Weyermann Extra Pilsner
OG: 1.044 / FG: 1.008 / 81% AA
Mashed at 64C/147F / Boil: 60' for around 30 IBU
100% German grown Brewers Gold hops

I pitched 2 x Lallemand Koln sachets in around 24 liters / 6.3 gallons. Sat in the fermenter for 13 days and then packaged. I still have 30 bottles of it ( 15 liters ! ) laying around.

 

[rtstrider]

You mentioned clove bomb. Curious what was your ferment profile?

Apparently I'm not the only one. See thehaze comment directly above. I fermented at 59f. Belgian is the PERFECT descriptor of this strain. I loved the grain/hop bill though and will be rebrewing this with a liquid yeast (Imperial G02 if the LHBS has it or 1007 if not) and fermenting around 59f. I HATED the Koln yeast though. Glad to know I'm not the only one that had this same exact issue btw.

If you look at the Lallemand flavor/aroma wheel for this yeast clove is not highlighted. I'm not trashing the company btw as I've brewed with their other strains (ec-1118, Nottingham, Voss, Belle Saison and will be using Verdant IPA soon) with no issues. It's just this Koln strain. Not a fan and that's putting it beyond mildly lol

 

[thehaze]

So once the beer turned out they way it did, I thought many days, weeks after, what could've gone wrong. I have been brewing saisons alongside " regular " brews for years and, with proper care and hygiene, I never had anythign weird happening. I thought that, probably my auto-siphon had a bit of yeast left or there was a small yeast speck inside the fermenter, which I omitted when cleaning it. Kind of hard, as I use the big mouth HDPE Speidel fermenters, which you can inspect visually for dirty spots, etc. Then I thought maybe the hops were the problem. Purchased some german grown hops - crop 2019 - from a shop I've never used before. How likely would that be? Finally, one of the other reasons I thought of, was that maybe - seeing the yeast has an incredibly low cell count - the yeast was contaminated or it simply needed more time in the QA department. Sure, two people experiencing the same issue is far from evidence to support any theory, but the beer itself turned out more belgiany than anything else. And with a hint of that diastaticus, sharp phenolic flavour.

 

[rtstrider]

You know I've never been so irked that I went full Karen and wrote a yeast company until today lol Anywho I sent Lallemand a contact request and referenced this particular forum. Here's what I submitted...Hopefully I, or we, hear something back

Hello,

I recently used the Koln Kolsch yeast with less than optimal results. My fermenter had 5.5 gallons of wort and the OG was 1.049. Fermentation temperature was 59F. It took about 96 hours to get a full krausen. Fermentation lasted a good 9 days or so. When this was done I got a faint clove aroma/taste. Normally this screams infection or it points to a yeast that is POF+. Per the Flavor and Aroma wheel on the site clove is not referenced as a perceived descriptor. At first I was under the impression that this may have been stress from underpitching the yeast. It is not clearly stated on the site that 2 packs should be used and I found the Lallemand Yeast Pitch Rate Calculator that stated 3 packs were needed. Here's the thing. I chose dry yeast for convenience and cost. This was neither. I ended up reviewing this particular strain on homebrewtalk.com

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/new-lallemand-yeasts-new-england-and-kolsch.670132/page-2
Starting on page 2. I am rtstrider. It appears another forum member (thehaze) experienced the exact same results I did. Others are mentioning that this is not a true Kolsch strain as well. I absolutely hate dumping a batch but this was absolutely undrinkable. I feel the marketing is either a tad off or there should be tighter qc on this strain. I ended up dumping $30 down the drain here.

On a side note this is not my first fermentation with Lallemand yeast. My first ever ferments (2017) were with EC-1118. I've also used Nottingham, Belle Saison (it's been 2 years), and Voss with great results! So I'm hoping this is just kinks that need to be worked out on a new product. Either way I wanted to make the company aware of the issues that are being experienced by myself and other homebrewers.

 

[Miraculix]

Well written, I'm looking forward to seeing their reply.

 

[thehaze]

I think the email is OK. You are asking pertinent questions. I feel that if there is an unknown issue with the yeast - unknown even for Lallemand at this point - it would be nice to have it acknowledged, so that we know and wait a bit more for the next batches.

 

[couchsending]

The fact that your pitch rate ended up being so low and it took so long to get started makes me think that you got some sort of growth from another yeast strain (commercial or wild) in the time it took the Koln yeast to get going. It only takes a very small amount of POF+ yeast cells to end up with noticeable phenols in the final beer.

With say a normal fermentation where you get a much faster start the pitching yeast is out competing everything rather quickly.

When I used this strain I used two packs and never experienced any phenolics. I don’t exactly remember but pretty sure it started and finished in an acceptable time frame. I just didn’t like the character of the yeast itself.

In Lallemand’s defense they put the pitching rate right on the packaging and have a pitching rate calculator for each strain on their website. This is honestly more info and transparency than you get from the other dry yeast manufacturers.

Dry yeast viability is all over the map depending on the strain. you can find data where people have done cell counts and some strains have 3x the amount of viable cells per gram. You can’t use the same approach to every yeast and expect the same result.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

You know I've never been so irked that I went full Karen and wrote a yeast company until today lol Anywho I sent Lallemand a contact request and referenced this particular forum. Here's what I submitted...Hopefully I, or we, hear something back

Hello,

I recently used the Koln Kolsch yeast with less than optimal results. My fermenter had 5.5 gallons of wort and the OG was 1.049. Fermentation temperature was 59F. It took about 96 hours to get a full krausen. Fermentation lasted a good 9 days or so. When this was done I got a faint clove aroma/taste. Normally this screams infection or it points to a yeast that is POF+. Per the Flavor and Aroma wheel on the site clove is not referenced as a perceived descriptor. At first I was under the impression that this may have been stress from underpitching the yeast. It is not clearly stated on the site that 2 packs should be used and I found the Lallemand Yeast Pitch Rate Calculator that stated 3 packs were needed. Here's the thing. I chose dry yeast for convenience and cost. This was neither. I ended up reviewing this particular strain on homebrewtalk.com

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/new-lallemand-yeasts-new-england-and-kolsch.670132/page-2
Starting on page 2. I am rtstrider. It appears another forum member (thehaze) experienced the exact same results I did. Others are mentioning that this is not a true Kolsch strain as well. I absolutely hate dumping a batch but this was absolutely undrinkable. I feel the marketing is either a tad off or there should be tighter qc on this strain. I ended up dumping $30 down the drain here.

On a side note this is not my first fermentation with Lallemand yeast. My first ever ferments (2017) were with EC-1118. I've also used Nottingham, Belle Saison (it's been 2 years), and Voss with great results! So I'm hoping this is just kinks that need to be worked out on a new product. Either way I wanted to make the company aware of the issues that are being experienced by myself and other homebrewers.

You tried it once? My mate tried it once and it worked as expected

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This (emphasis added) ...

Dry yeast viability is all over the map depending on the strain. you can find data where people have done cell counts and some strains have 3x the amount of viable cells per gram. You can’t use the same approach to every yeast and expect the same result.

... is worth repeating.

Looks like the tip I got from a pro brewer a couple of years ago ("treat each strain of dry yeast differently") was good advice.

 

[Jsmith2154]

My average batch is a 10p 2.75gl batch. I use the mr malty calculator for my pitching rate, it doesn't account for strain. It recommends 6g based on a year old package date. On the lallemand site they say 10g for the Koln and don't account for packaging. This is a pretty stark difference. I'm not the most stingy when it comes to ingredients cost but when I pre-order I can get a week old pack of wyeast from ritebrew for ~$13.50/shipped while a year plus packet of Koln from morebeer comes out to ~$12.67/shipped. And given the experiences from others on this thread I think I'm sold on sticking with wyeast or giving a visit to WhiteLabs again.

 

[Jsmith2154]

So between this thread and a few other posts on the forum I’m going to give WLP029 a try. WL tasting room curbside pickup scheduled for tomorrow!

 

[Twinkeelfool]

It’s a great yeast, I love it

 

[rtstrider]

So between this thread and a few other posts on the forum I’m going to give WLP029 a try. WL tasting room curbside pickup scheduled for tomorrow!

will be at White Labs Asheville this week. Going to pick up wlp029 if they have it and a few other strains since I can’t get white labs locally

 

[jcav]

I have used WLP029 for my Kolsch that I make every year and this strain is excellent for brewing a Kolsch. It is the only strain I will use for this style, it is that good. You will not be disappointed.

John

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I have used WLP029 for my Kolsch that I make every year and this strain is excellent for brewing a Kolsch. It is the only strain I will use for this style, it is that good. You will not be disappointed.

John

I love the yeast but for kolsh I prefer 2565.

What temps do you ferment 029 at when brewing your kolsch?

 

[jcav]

I love the yeast but for kolsh I prefer 2565.

What temps do you ferment 029 at when brewing your kolsch?

I start it at 58 degrees for several days and then slowly let it climb into the low 60's. I also do a D-rest at about 68 degrees before cold crashing. My recipe comes out absolutely stellar after it has melded in the kegs for 3 weeks. Maybe one day I will throw 2565 at it and see if it is even better but I really love the results I get with WLP029. I really like Wyeast for most of my other beers though. I do also use White Labs German Bock when I need it, as it is also a super lager yeast with no sulphur and super malty!

John

 

[rtstrider]

Lallemand ended up reaching back out to me and sent a goodie pack with some packets of the Kolsch yeast. Incidentally I'll be brewing a Kolsch this weekend. I won't be using that yeast though. I'll be using Imperial G03 with a 2 liter starter. Want a very active/hefty pitch to get this puppy going. These packs are in the fridge and will stay there until I get a nice back log of brews built back up.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I have 2 packs waiting for the kolsch I’m brewing right now. I’ll pitch both packs and see how it goes

 

[skysmyzer]

With 2 packs of the Kolsch and time I've got a decent result, I'm getting good feedback but no certified judges. Much better than last time when I only used 1 pack. As a dry yeast fiend i'll use it again and definitely 2 packs!

 

[rtstrider]

Well the packets I received from Lallemand expire this month 2-2021. They’ve been stored in the fridge for a few months so viability shouldn’t be an issue. Conveniently I just invested in yeast freezing equipment. I’m going to build a 2 liter 1.040 starter on the stir plate this weekend, pitch non rehydrated, and let it ferment out. It may not be the best use of this yeast but it should work! I’m going to experiment with bringing a 15ml frozen vial back to life and build it up in steps to a 2 liter starter later this year. I have a gut inkling that may be just what the dr ordered for this yeast. A nice healthy 2 liter starter. Worst case the starter is a dumper and best case it’s beer. I’ll keep everyone posted!

TLDR I’m bound and determined to get a batch of beer out of this yeast

 

[NTexBrewer]

I have a Kolsch currently fermenting with the Koln yeast. I’ll report how it turns out.

I used one pack rehydrated with Go-Ferm, 45 second pure oxygen, and had a 24 hour lag.

SG was 1.054

I’m fermenting at 65° so warmer than what others in this thread have done. The technical data sheet for the yeast states that they fermented their wort at 68° to produce the flavors and aromas listed on their flavor and aroma wheel. It does say that the temperature range for the yeast is 54 to 72.

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp.../03/TDS_LALBREW_PREM_KOLN_ENGLISH_DIGITAL.pdf

 

[rtstrider]

I have a Kolsch currently fermenting with the Koln yeast. I’ll report how it turns out.

I used one pack rehydrated with Go-Ferm, 45 second pure oxygen, and had a 24 hour lag.

SG was 1.054

I’m fermenting at 65° so warmer than what others in this thread have done. The technical data sheet for the yeast states that they fermented their wort at 68° to produce the flavors and aromas listed on their flavor and aroma wheel. It does say that the temperature range for the yeast is 54 to 72.

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp.../03/TDS_LALBREW_PREM_KOLN_ENGLISH_DIGITAL.pdf

I just pitched the non rehydrated yeast into 2 liters 1.040 wort on the stir plate. Really curious to see if the lag time is crazy slow there. I’m not anticipating it being slow though in this environment. We will see!