'New' Lallemand Yeasts - New England and Kolsch

[couchsending]

I wanted to put in my 2 cents on the Koln yeast. I was unaware that this needed a higher than normal pitch rate until after the yeast was pitched. According to Lallemand 2 yeast packs should be used. I used 1 pack in 5.5 gallons 1.049 og wort. The fermenter was chilled to 59f. This is the slowest yeast I've ever used. It took right over 36 hours just to see VERY minimal activity and 60 hours for a slight krausen. It may be due to the pitch rate, but, it may just be the yeast itself. This is a very simple brew. 90% 2 row 10% wheat malt, FWH Magnum, 15 min Hallertau MF, bittered to around 20 ibus. The pilsner water profile is being used from brewers friend. Once this brew is ready I'm going to take it to the lhbs/brewery and see what liquid strain they think this is close to. I wanted something light and plain jane to get a fill for the yeast before I really developed a rock solid recipe.

This yeast is definitely not worth using. As someone who brews Kolsch a lot (close to 20 batches the last few years) and has used every yeast under the sun I wouldn't bother with this yeast again. The cell counts are incredibly low and especially if you’re trying to ferment it on the cold side I’d probably shoot for 3 packs. That’s way too expensive when the benefit of dried yeast is often the cost.

The likelihood that a slow fermentation like you’re experiencing is going to produce anything that you could compare to other yeasts is highly unlikely. Usually you will experience increased acetaldehyde production and subsequent poor cleanup of it and other compounds. You might get lucky but if not I’d try krausening it with your next batch. It’s amazing what it can do.

I’m pretty sure Lallemand Koln is just their version of K-97 which is essentially the dried version of wyeast 1007, German Ale. Although the flocculation does look to be a bit better with Koln. They do say it’s a slow fermenter and can take a while for fermentation to begin. I’d bet it’s just due to the fact that this yeast doesn’t dry well at all. The fact that they talk about hop biotransformation with this yeast and it ferments cold to me sounds exactly like 1007.

wlp029 and Imperial Dieter are the easiest Kolsch strains to use as they are relatively fast, ferment better a little warmer, and flocculate much faster. However they just don’t seem to produce the correct ester profile for me. 2565 is hard to beat from an ester standpoint but it takes so unbelievably long to flocc. When it does it’s great though.

1007 lends a bit more sulphur character and is a bit easier to use than 2565 but not by much. It’s a pretty hardy yeast and doesn’t produce diacetyl above threshold so you can crash it as soon as it hits terminal. It’s used by a decent amount of large craft breweries for this reason, but again needs to be filtered or fined for a quick turnaround.

 

[rtstrider]

I used 2 packs my last one and it still took about that long to get going so i'm thinking it's just the yeast. Mine was 22L (5.8gal?) OG 1.050 fermented at 16.5 C (61.7F?).

Have you used any other kolsch yeasts before this? If so is there a liquid strain you think it is close to? I've never had a proper kolsch (store or brewery)

This yeast is definitely not worth using. As someone who brews Kolsch a lot (close to 20 batches the last few years) and has used every yeast under the sun I wouldn't bother with this yeast again. The cell counts are incredibly low and especially if you’re trying to ferment it on the cold side I’d probably shoot for 3 packs. That’s way too expensive when the benefit of dried yeast is often the cost.

The likelihood that a slow fermentation like you’re experiencing is going to produce anything that you could compare to other yeasts is highly unlikely. Usually you will experience increased acetaldehyde production and subsequent poor cleanup of it and other compounds. You might get lucky but if not I’d try krausening it with your next batch. It’s amazing what it can do.

I’m pretty sure Lallemand Koln is just their version of K-97 which is essentially the dried version of wyeast 1007, German Ale. Although the flocculation does look to be a bit better with Koln. They do say it’s a slow fermenter and can take a while for fermentation to begin. I’d bet it’s just due to the fact that this yeast doesn’t dry well at all. The fact that they talk about hop biotransformation with this yeast and it ferments cold to me sounds exactly like 1007.

wlp029 and Imperial Dieter are the easiest Kolsch strains to use as they are relatively fast, ferment better a little warmer, and flocculate much faster. However they just don’t seem to produce the correct ester profile for me. 2565 is hard to beat from an ester standpoint but it takes so unbelievably long to flocc. When it does it’s great though.

1007 lends a bit more sulphur character and is a bit easier to use than 2565 but not by much. It’s a pretty hardy yeast and doesn’t produce diacetyl above threshold so you can crash it as soon as it hits terminal. It’s used by a decent amount of large craft breweries for this reason, but again needs to be filtered or fined for a quick turnaround.

Thanks so much for that! I'll probably ramp up the temps at the end of fermentation and let this sit in primary for a bit due to your comments on acetylaldehyde. Figured it couldn't hurt at least!

 

[skysmyzer]

That's the only Kolsch yeast I've used, used it twice, once with 1 pack, then with 2. Never used a liquid yeast which I think is why I went for this when it came available. Might look for an alternative next time. How does K-97 go?

 

[rtstrider]

So right at 96 hours (4 days) we FINALLY have a full krausen and air lock bubbling every 3 seconds like a normal fermentation. This really is behaving like a lager yeast from the looks of the krausen and the delayed, so far, fermentation. It's not the typical ape crazy ale krausen but very subdued white/foamy krausen. Really eager to give this a sample when it's done

 

[Brewbuzzard]

LalBrew® New England | Lallemand Brewing

LalBrew® Köln Kölsch Style Ale Yeast | Lallemand Brewing

These are new yeasts to me, and I just ordered a couple of each from label peelers. I'm going to KISS and brew a couple of NEIPA and Kolsch.

Anyone here used these? Thoughts on fermentation profiles, flavor characteristics, flocculation, attenuation, etc?

Meaning of KISS as used in Brewing please

 

[skysmyzer]

Keep It Simple Stupid.

 

[rtstrider]

Fermentation is STILL going strong 6 days later at 59F. I bumped up the temp to 61F this morning and will bump up 2F every 24 hours until it hits 66F and let it ride out. Figured that will help speed things up a tad hopefully.

 

[rtstrider]

Pulled a gravity sample last night and this was at 1.010 which is one point below the target FG (1.011). Will test again Thursday and if it's the same it's cold crash time The sample was really powdery and not hazy. Just powdery if that makes sense. It didn't look like the normal "murky haze" if that's what you want to call it for a normal sample. Instead it looked like tiny bits of powder. It had a faint white wine flavor with a very light ester/(possible)phenol combo that reminds me of a hefeweizen. I'm talking this is FAINT so you have to look for it. I did not taste any acetaldehyde and there was a touch of sulfur on the nose that dissipated quickly. The ibu's are in the 19-20 range but the hops have a pretty hefty up front bite. The brew itself is very crisp and lager like body/mouthfeel wise. It definitely tastes like it needs some lagering though. It's pretty rough around the edges so not TOO worried about that lol It's a young beer I'll keep this thread updated since it doesn't seem there has been an in depth "review" per se on the Koln yeast yet.

PS For anyone that has had, or brewed, a proper Kolsch...Are the characteristics I've mentioned to be expected? I've never had a proper Kolsch so really curious!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

This may be a moot point, but my contention has always been that if you lager it (in the sense of cold storage, whereby I can't think of any other sense) it is now (by definition) a lager and therefore it is no longer an ale. The yeast argument is (to me) invalid, since genetic mapping has shown some "lager" yeasts to have all along been ale yeasts. WLP800 "Pilsner Urquell" yeast for example.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

This yeast is definitely not worth using. As someone who brews Kolsch a lot (close to 20 batches the last few years) and has used every yeast under the sun I wouldn't bother with this yeast again. The cell counts are incredibly low and especially if you’re trying to ferment it on the cold side I’d probably shoot for 3 packs. That’s way too expensive when the benefit of dried yeast is often the cost.

The likelihood that a slow fermentation like you’re experiencing is going to produce anything that you could compare to other yeasts is highly unlikely. Usually you will experience increased acetaldehyde production and subsequent poor cleanup of it and other compounds. You might get lucky but if not I’d try krausening it with your next batch. It’s amazing what it can do.

I’m pretty sure Lallemand Koln is just their version of K-97 which is essentially the dried version of wyeast 1007, German Ale. Although the flocculation does look to be a bit better with Koln. They do say it’s a slow fermenter and can take a while for fermentation to begin. I’d bet it’s just due to the fact that this yeast doesn’t dry well at all. The fact that they talk about hop biotransformation with this yeast and it ferments cold to me sounds exactly like 1007.

wlp029 and Imperial Dieter are the easiest Kolsch strains to use as they are relatively fast, ferment better a little warmer, and flocculate much faster. However they just don’t seem to produce the correct ester profile for me. 2565 is hard to beat from an ester standpoint but it takes so unbelievably long to flocc. When it does it’s great though.

1007 lends a bit more sulphur character and is a bit easier to use than 2565 but not by much. It’s a pretty hardy yeast and doesn’t produce diacetyl above threshold so you can crash it as soon as it hits terminal. It’s used by a decent amount of large craft breweries for this reason, but again needs to be filtered or fined for a quick turnaround.

I love 029 German ale for just about every beer I make from apa to blonde ale to stout but find the same, for a kolsch, 2565 tastes the best for me.

 

[rtstrider]

I love 029 German ale for just about every beer I make from apa to blonde ale to stout but find the same, for a kolsch, 2565 tastes the best for me.

None of the shops or breweries near me use, or carry, White Labs. I will be headed up to Asheville in 2 weeks, hurricane willing, and plan to hit up the white labs gift shop for a few yeast strains. A local shop started carrying Imperial yeast not too long ago. I've read that G03 is supposedly WLP029 and G02 is 1007. IF this turns into a tasty brew I plan on rebrewing it with a few different kolsch/german strains. Nothing wrong with an easy drinking, easy brewing, lite ale

 

[Twinkeelfool]

None of the shops or breweries near me use, or carry, White Labs. I will be headed up to Asheville in 2 weeks, hurricane willing, and plan to hit up the white labs gift shop for a few yeast strains. A local shop started carrying Imperial yeast not too long ago. I've read that G03 is supposedly WLP029 and G02 is 1007. IF this turns into a tasty brew I plan on rebrewing it with a few different kolsch/german strains. Nothing wrong with an easy drinking, easy brewing, lite ale

The majority of my beers are easy drinkers, especially kegged beers. 029 is very clean and crisp and lets the hops shine. My house ale yeast for sure. Nitro stout I did not long ago worked as well as the hoppy session beers. I don’t like us05, I get peach from it no matter how I brew with it, once I tried 029, never given us05 another thought

 

[rhys333]

Kveik kölsch. Still clearing but one more week should take care of that. I think it works.

 

[skysmyzer]

This may be a moot point, but my contention has always been that if you lager it (in the sense of cold storage, whereby I can't think of any other sense) it is now (by definition) a lager and therefore it is no longer an ale. The yeast argument is (to me) invalid, since genetic mapping has shown some "lager" yeasts to have all along been ale yeasts. WLP800 "Pilsner Urquell" yeast for example.

Good point, But what of fermentation temperature? I think this is where the term hybrid beer comes in which I've heard Kolsch called before.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

"Hybrid beer" is one of those phrases that predates us understanding just what a mixed bag of yeast species get used to produce certain styles. So the idea of fermenting a cerevisiae (ale) cool to make kolsch or a pastorianus (lager) warm to make steam beers was considered such exceptions that they were considered their own distinct family of beer. But then most macro lager is fermented at close to ale temperatures - they have forgiving yeast like 34/70 and the hydrostatic pressure of their huge fermenters suppresses most esters.

As SiM said, we now know the reality is so messy - there's even commercial lager being made with members of the saison family - that the idea of putting beers in nice tidy boxes based on yeast type just gets meaningless.

 

[rtstrider]

Well pulled a gravity sample and taste sample last night and it's the same so it's cold crashing now. I probably wouldn't use that yeast again for this brew. It would work VERY well in an American Hefeweizen though imo. I think marketing this as a "neutral" strain is very misleading. Nothing neutral about this at all. It has light hefeweizen written all over it. It honestly reminds me of Wyeast 3056. Not in your face but the ester/phenols are still there. Yes I said phenols lol. That could be my own fault for unknowingly underpitching and potentially stressing the yeast. The jury is still out on this though. I'm cold crashing for 48 hours at 33f, fining with gelatin for 48 hours, bottling, and will bottle lager once this is carbed. I will be trying the German Ale (either 1007 or preferrably the Imperial variant if the lhbs has it on hand) in a few months. Either way this was not what I was going for.

Edit: I'm actually headed to the LHBS tomorrow. It's a brewery as well and the owner is a BJCP judge. I'll bring a sample of this and see what they say. I'll report back

 

[rhys333]

Well pulled a gravity sample and taste sample last night and it's the same so it's cold crashing now. I probably wouldn't use that yeast again for this brew. It would work VERY well in an American Hefeweizen though imo. I think marketing this as a "neutral" strain is very misleading. Nothing neutral about this at all. It has light hefeweizen written all over it. It honestly reminds me of Wyeast 3056. Not in your face but the ester/phenols are still there. Yes I said phenols lol. That could be my own fault for unknowingly underpitching and potentially stressing the yeast. The jury is still out on this though. I'm cold crashing for 48 hours at 33f, fining with gelatin for 48 hours, bottling, and will bottle lager once this is carbed. I will be trying the German Ale (either 1007 or preferrably the Imperial variant if the lhbs has it on hand) in a few months. Either way this was not what I was going for.

Edit: I'm actually headed to the LHBS tomorrow. It's a brewery as well and the owner is a BJCP judge. I'll bring a sample of this and see what they say. I'll report back

I picked up a slight hefe character on the first keg pour of my kölach. It dissipated right away though.

 

[rtstrider]

I picked up a slight hefe character on the first keg pour of my kölach. It dissipated right away though.

Honestly that's what I'm hoping for. Lagering/Cold storage can help a good bit of things. It's definitely very yeasty

 

[rhys333]

Honestly that's what I'm hoping for. Lagering/Cold storage can help a good bit of things. It's definitely very yeasty

It should clear for you. I'm noticing that my kveik batches start out cloudier than average, but clear up at about the same rate as standard ale yeasts.

 

[rtstrider]

I officially hate the lallemand Koln yeast. This batch is a dumper. It has clove in it. It was from an under pitch and massive lag time I’m assuming. Aka stressed yeast. Why sell this in dry yeast yeast form when you can just get liquid yeast and build a more viable starter/culture for a fraction of the cost? Well I guess the voss will be used this weekend and for German ale/kolsch it’s absolutely liquid yeast with starter or bust!

ps This would make a good American Hefeweizen strain as mentioned above. Kolsch...Absolutely not

 

[skysmyzer]

Dumper or age it?

 

[rtstrider]

Dumper or age it?

phenols won’t age out so dumper. Ticks me off big time!

 

[rtstrider]

Anywho batch dumped and lesson learned. I have a Voss IPA in there now and it’s already starting to ferment Pitched around an hour and a half ago

 

[rhys333]

Anywho batch dumped and lesson learned. I have a Voss IPA in there now and it’s already starting to ferment Pitched around an hour and a half ago

You hate clove enough to dump a batch?

 

[rtstrider]

You hate clove enough to dump a batch?

Yep! Except in Belgians and Hefes

 

[Jsmith2154]

I've been hunting for a go to kolsch yeast the last couple of months. I had been using WY2575 Kolsch II. But I'm running out of my slurry tubes and so looking for a more readily available strain since the WY is a PC strain. I thought Koln would be it but between this thread and the info on lallemand site I don't think it's going to cut it. Do I even try a batch with the 1yr old packet I got from morebeer? Anyone like 2565? I did see a couple votes for WLP029. Thoughts?

 

[rtstrider]

I've been hunting for a go to kolsch yeast the last couple of months. I had been using WY2575 Kolsch II. But I'm running out of my slurry tubes and so looking for a more readily available strain since the WY is a PC strain. I thought Koln would be it but between this thread and the info on lallemand site I don't think it's going to cut it. Do I even try a batch with the 1yr old packet I got from morebeer? Anyone like 2565? I did see a couple votes for WLP029. Thoughts?

If you want a dumper then absolutely go for the Koln lol

 

[Jsmith2154]

If you want a dumper then absolutely go for the Koln lol

I tend to dump my fair share but I definitely don't start a batch with the intention of dumping.

 

[Jsmith2154]

If you want a dumper then absolutely go for the Koln lol

You mentioned clove bomb. Curious what was your ferment profile?

 

[couchsending]

Anyone here had fresh Kolsch in Cologne and had a Kolsch brewed in the US that’s anywhere close?

I’m drinking a can of Fruh right now that has a best by date of 9/6/21 which I think means it was canned on 9/6/20 which I find hard to believe but maybe.