Make IPA Clear Again

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There are a lot of good points in this thread and I agree with many of them. Whether you like or dislike these "hazy ipas" it seems the main complaint is these beers should not be called IPAs, rather be put in a new category all their own. Something like hazy ales or whatever. I'd personally have no problem with that at all but don't see it happening.

The other main complaint seems to be that they are so popular right now that it's difficult getting your hands on a more traditional, classic, English or west coast style IPA. Right or wrong bars, restaurants, liquor stores, etc..are going to carry what sells, and right now these are the beers that people want. Honestly though in my area, I have no problem finding these types of beers along with the hazy ones. Actually most of the good neipas don't even make it to shelves, they're sold right from the breweries. Maybe I'm just lucky.

And just some food for thought..aren't ipas called ipas because they were heavily hopped in order for the beers to withstand the long journey from England to India? The main characteristic of the true original IPA was the heavy hopping. Not so much the clarity.
 
I remember a time when I was sort of like "Humm, look at this, a NEIPA. That's cool I've wanted to try one of those." Now it's like "Humm, is there any IPA that isn't hazy around here anywhere?"

It's cool as another option, what sucks is that it has become the dominate option and pushed several other options out of the way.

I'm definitely over it.
 
Well, by now every beer drinker knows a NEIPA will have some degree of haze. I have brewed one and I enjoy them when I’m in the mood for one. With that said, I’m put off when I go to a brewery and order a flight of different styles and they all come out cloudy. Perhaps the hipsters don’t know any better, or think that makes everything better, but I don’t want an APA, traditional IPA or lager that isn’t clear. Don’t be an impatient, lazy brewer if you want my repeat business.
 
I believe to each is own but I will admit as someone who brews and buys quite a few NEIPAs, I find myself craving a good lager or a "nothing fancy" stout or brown ale a lot lately.

To those who say its yeast sludge my answer is: it can be if done poorly but its not fully true! I use a lot of wheat (25-30%) and flake oats in mine which I believe contributes to the haze and dry hoping which binds to the yeast does as well. I actually have been using a diptub filter on transfer on mine lately and have lost zero haze and have no visible or palatable residue or "sludge" in the glass.

OH and water chemistry! It can make that soft pillowy mouthfeel even on a filtered NEIPA! I have actually been toying with doing a cream ale with the NEIPA water chemistry to get a better mouthfeel.
 
passedpawn said:
I would be a little unhappy if there wasn't at least one clear IPA when I go out, but that has yet to happen.
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Agreed. I like them both as I've said, but I think it's a little overblown that hazy ipas are the only ipa you can get when you go out. If you go to a brewery that clearly focuses on the style then it should be expected. But any restaurant, brew pub, liquor store around me (central NJ) absolutely has plenty of options that aren't hazy/muddy.
 
Virginia_Ranger said:
I believe to each is own but I will admit as someone who brews and buys quite a few NEIPAs, I find myself craving a good lager or a "nothing fancy" stout or brown ale a lot lately.

To those who say its yeast sludge my answer is: it can be if done poorly but its not fully true! I use a lot of wheat (25-30%) and flake oats in mine which I believe contributes to the haze and dry hoping which binds to the yeast does as well. I actually have been using a diptub filter on transfer on mine lately and have lost zero haze and have no visible or palatable residue or "sludge" in the glass.

OH and water chemistry! It can make that soft pillowy mouthfeel even on a filtered NEIPA! I have actually been toying with doing a cream ale with the NEIPA water chemistry to get a better mouthfeel.
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This is so correct. It’s being shown that some of the ingredients and certain yeasts are being used to extract maximum hop flavor which is exactly what I think most like. I get that the aesthetics can trick the mind into thinking it’s thick or chewy.

I’ve had quite a few NEIPAs and a lot of the newer ones clearly do have a sludge/residue in the last bit of the glass. But, there are several breweries that make really good NEIPAs where this doesn’t happen. Treehouse is a good example, really like their beers but sometimes they have a perfect batch, but then others leave behind an oz of trub/hop particulate. Not to turn this thread into who does it the right/wrong way, but try a Focal Banger from Alchemist and then use that to judge the correct way to make a NEIPA. If that beer was purple with glitter I’d still drink it whenever I can get my hands on it.

I also agree with the other poster that said they find themselves craving other styles now. I like NEIPAs but I’d rather have what the brewery brews the best, and don’t find myself trying their “new stuff”
 
I could care less what a hoppy beer looks like. It is a known side effect of fining or filtering a beer that hop aroma and intensity will suffer. There is no brewer that will tell you otherwise. The best producers of the hazy style don’t do many of the things that people think are critical for the “hazy” beer style. They don’t use wheat or oats or dry hop during fermentation. They even “gasp” add hops in the kettle! The best hazy beers are just a little softer and have a bigger aromatic presence over just bitterness.

To me the difference is yeast esters. Beers made with Chico just let the hops shine where as the English yeasts tend to compliment the fruity hops with some more fruity esters of their own.

Thinking that because a beer isn’t clear the brewer of said beer is lazy is a rather stupid statement. A great hazy beer is actually harder to make than a clean WC inspired IPA in my opinion.

I make plenty of both and have been using Cal ale yeast more and more these days after probably hundreds of batches of IPAs with English yeast. Enjoying the change of pace actually.
 
I'm sure it's been said in this thread, but tarring all hazy beers as yeast bombs is also dumb and reductive. There are some bad examples of the style that have a ton of yeast in suspension but the vast majority do not, nor should they. It's not required to make a hazy beer.
 
We just dont want the Hazy/Juicy style associated with IPA. It's funny when someone says that they dont like the bitter IPA's... Maybe they just dont like IPA? Maybe they really just prefer fruit juice instead... I think its fine that they like that and I do too sometimes. Just dont call it IPA.

Lets get it moved to a new style and drop the IPA association. Lets MAKE IPA CLEAR AGAIN!
 
Okay, a little reference to the Brewers Association style guidelines...

First, I think (hope) that everyone agrees that IPA actually started as an English export to... India. So if there were a good baseline of what the style should be, an English IPA should be about as close as it gets.

From the BA on English-Style India Pale Ale:
-----------------------------------------------
English-Style India Pale Ale

  • Color: Gold to copper
  • Clarity: Chill haze is acceptable at low temperatures
  • Perceived Malt Aroma & Flavor: Medium malt flavor should be present
  • Perceived Hop Aroma & Flavor: Hop aroma and flavor is medium to high, and often flowery. Hops from a variety of origins may be used to contribute to a high hopping rate. Earthy and herbal English-variety hop character should be perceived, but may result from the skillful use of hops of other origin.
  • Perceived Bitterness: Medium to high
  • Fermentation Characteristics: Fruity-estery flavors are moderate to very high. Traditional interpretations are characterized by medium to medium-high alcohol content. The use of water with high mineral content results in a crisp, dry beer with a subtle and balanced character of sulfur compounds. Diacetyl can be absent or may be perceived at very low levels.
  • Body: Medium
  • Additional notes: Non-English hops may be used for bitterness or for approximating traditional English hop character. The use of water with high mineral content may result in a crisp, dry beer rather than a malt-accentuated version.
-----------------------------------------------

From the BA on American-Style India Pale Ale:
-------------------------------------------------
American-Style India Pale Ale

  • Color: Gold to copper
  • Clarity: Chill haze is acceptable at low temperatures. Hop haze is allowable at any temperature.
  • Perceived Malt Aroma & Flavor: Low-medium to medium maltiness is present in aroma and flavor
  • Perceived Hop Aroma & Flavor: Hop aroma and flavor is high, exhibiting floral, fruity (berry, tropical, stone fruit and other), sulfur/diesel-like, onion-garlic-catty, citrusy, piney or resinous character that was originally associated with American-variety hops. Hops with these attributes now also originate from countries other than the USA.
  • Perceived Bitterness: Medium-high to very high
  • Fermentation Characteristics: Fruity-estery aroma and flavor may be low to high. Diacetyl should not be perceived.
  • Body: Medium-low to medium
  • Additional notes: The use of water with high mineral content may result in a crisp, dry beer rather than a malt-accentuated version. Sugar adjuncts may be used to enhance body and balance. Hops of varied origins may be used for bitterness or for approximating traditional American character.
-------------------------------------------------

With me still? So far the two styles are fairly similar in Color, Clarity as well as malt and hop aroma/flavor and perceived bitterness. Subtle differences for sure..


But then out of left field comes what looks like a completely different beer...

From the BA on Juicy or Hazy India Pale Ale:
-------------------------------------------------
Juicy or Hazy India Pale Ale

  • Color: Straw to deep gold
  • Clarity: Low to very high degree of cloudiness is typical of these beers. Starch, yeast, hop, protein and/or other compounds contribute to a wide range of hazy appearance within this category.
  • Perceived Malt Aroma & Flavor: Low to low-medium malt aroma and flavor may be present
  • Perceived Hop Aroma & Flavor: Medium-high to very high hop aroma and flavor are present, with attributes typical of hops from any origin
  • Perceived Bitterness: Medium-low to medium
  • Fermentation Characteristics: Low to medium fruity-estery aroma and flavor may be present, but are usually overwhelmed by hop fruitiness. Diacetyl should not be perceived.
  • Body: Medium-low to medium-high. Perceived silky or full mouthfeel may contribute to overall flavor profile.
  • Additional notes: Grist may include a small amount of oat, wheat or other adjuncts to promote haziness. Descriptors such as “juicy” are often used to describe the taste and aroma hop-derived attributes present in these beers.
-------------------------------------------------

How did this ever get lumped in with "IPA"? Likely for marketing purposes since IPA has been pretty popular lately. And because of these things its taking over what folks think an IPA should be and prompting an acceptance of what would be considered flaws in most other styles.

Just saying... Can we get these beers in their own non-IPA category and MAKE IPA CLEAR AGAIN?
 
Because you know I'm all about that malt,
'Bout that malt, no hoppy
I'm all 'bout that malt, 'bout that malt, no hoppy
I'm all 'bout that malt, 'bout that malt, no hoppy
I'm all 'bout that malt, 'bout that malt
 
Qhrumphf said:
What if it's hazy AND bitter?

Just saying. Varying degrees of haze have always been present.
Click to expand...

Some haze with bitterness isnt typical of the NEIPA's I've encountered. They are mostly an extreme haze, like a glass of juice, with no bitterness. Pretty much all aroma and fruit juice flavor with no clarity.
 
I guess that, in a nutshell, is my thing. And everyone is entitled to their thing. Some like roasted Brussels sprouts and some think they are inedible. All hop is interesting for a moment.

I, and it's just me, prefer balance.
 
You didn't answer my question. If you wanna get historical and traditional about it, haze has always been variable? So is it the haze or the lack of bitterness that bugs you?

Because even among clearer old school IPAs, the bitterness has varied too.

There are some New England examples that are more bitter than old school English or East Coast examples.
 
Its both haze and lack of bitterness but mostly the extreme, dirty dishwater lack of clarity is what really bugs me. The two traits together just dont align with IPA IMO...

I'm assuming that there are some more bitter NEIPA variants out there. But I haven't encountered any so far and am unlikely to given my aversion to the visual detraction..
 
An interesting idea, but not practical.
I just had a very interesting Norwegian IPA with Kviek yeast and New Zealand Motueka hops.
It was a haze bomb. Appearance looked like pond slog. But tasted very clean and refreshing.
Not all IPA's are clear. It really doesn't matter...
 
Beerwildered said:
Chefs and gastronomes are fond of telling us that we “eat with our eyes,” and I agree. Why would I want to eat something that looks nasty, or prepared in a dirty kitchen, but tastes amazing? I don’t. How food (and drink, presumably) is prepared and presented is paramount to our appreciation of how it tastes.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right and it's something you should always consider when building a recipe. Imagine being served a pale crystal clear stout, wouldn't that be odd and off-putting? The combination of the 2 senses being executed perfectly is magical. But the counterpoint to that is that taste will always trump appearance. For example, I've had bbq so good you'd sell your family for it and it was served from a hole in the wall joint with plywood on the walls on a plastic plate piled with meat and sides. One bite and you don't give a feck what it looks like.

The other thing that's important to chefs is 'balance', you want to balance the various flavors, textures, temperatures, colors. You want your dishes to pair well with each other and with the beers and wines you serve so that the entire experience is harmonious. I'd argue that the whole West Coast bitter hop bomb trend was much worse than the current haze trend...nothing like a mouth full of bitter to blow out your palate and make you unable to taste anything else.

Note: I like many west coast IPAs, I also like many NEIPAs and British style IPAs as well, they're all unique IMO but none of them are good when taken to extremes, you gotta have balance.
 
The problem I have the the NEIPA/Haze is the balance of the beer. Everyone I buy tastes virtually the same. I’m fine w haze. I’m fine with names or whatever, just give me a harmonious beer. One that makes me want more than 1. I think some bitterness goes a long way in what I think would balance this style for me. I get the attraction to them.
 
Nagorg said:
I will not embrace them. They have invaded the IPA space. I have to be leery of trying new beers now because of them; they are everywhere!

Now I have to look for key words that give a clue that its a hazy mess since I cant rely on "NEIPA" to be used. I've been bit more than once by this and sorely disappointed when my glass became full of what looks like OJ. Oskar Blues Can-O-Bliss became a Can-O-Mess and I gave away the rest of the sixer.

On the other hand, now if I brew a beer with a clarity problem I just tell folks its New England style and they nod in acceptance. lol
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Hmm, You mention can o bliss. I paid 7.99 for the 6 of it at king soopers. I didn't think it was very good either and it was a reminder you pay for what you get. The burly oak lost ipa I paid 17 99 for 4 of in philly last weekend were good. So was the crystal waters stout at the same price.

I agree tap take over is lame. I am different in that I have very few dislikes. The only one I can think of is chilli in beer. Other than that game on, massive amounts too, of chocolate, coffee,vanilla,fruit, French toast, whatever. Weldwerks put out a choc, strawberry, vanilla neapolitan ice cream sour. It was so freaking good!!! I know sounds horrible but it was really balanced in flavor. I think it was clear.
 
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So many good IPA's of varying degrees of balance between malt and hops. But they all keep a common theme of hop character inclusive of the bittering, flavor and aroma senses... And... They range from brilliantly clear to slightly hazy generally due to a large dry hop.

But I dont get any traditional IPA character from the NEIPA's I've tasted. (several tasted unintentionally from a time before I learned to ask if its hazy...) Yet I see glasses everywhere full of a yucky looking muck of a beer and cringe at thought of folks thinking that's it what makes a good IPA.

I dont care if people like the beers and want to drink them or brew them. Carry on with these things.. I just dont understand how this became an accepted "style" associated with IPA... I truly think these cloudy, fruit bombs need a style of their own without the IPA association. Lets MAKE IPA CLEAR AGAIN!
 
Dog House Brew said:
Everyone I buy tastes virtually the same.
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I agree with this statement. Living in New England and being here at the start of this craze I have been able to watch as the beers have morphed over the years. What started out as slightly hazy has now become more of a murk. I believe that this started because people/brewers thought the haze is what makes the beer great and maybe it does to some degree. So if some haze is good wouldn't MORE be better?? So now you have brewers pushing the envelope trying to get beer as hazy as they can. I do enjoy the style but as DHB stated its very difficult to tell one of these beers from another now. I honestly believe that i could pick out Heady, Focal Banger or Crusher from a line up based on taste alone. However at other breweries you get a flight of 4 or 5 of their NEIPAs and they all taste pretty much the same with no well defined stand outs.

What is bothering me the most about this craze is the lack of variety that most breweries have these days. Variety is what the craft beer industry was built on. If they're only pushing one style of beer where does that leave us?
 
ApolloSimcoe said:
What is bothering me the most about this craze is the lack of variety that most breweries have these days. Variety is what the craft beer industry was built on. If they're only pushing one style of beer where does that leave us?
Click to expand...

As a homebrewer trying to figure out what aspects of an NEIPA I like but knowing that I am not a huge fan of Simcoe and Citra (or at least not a fan when they they are not in balance) I feel like I am left on my own to figure out alternative hops. It really is amazing how much Citra and Simcoe has invaded so many commercial IPAs (both West Coast and NEIPA). So many NEIPAs are overloaded with Citra and Moasic hops that they tend to overlap in flavor.

I am not posting this looking for suggestions for hops (I have several hops picked out for hop sampler batches) or looking for people to point out NEIPAs brewed with other hops (yes they exist, just as an extreme minority). I am just sure if you spend a little time looking up gold medal winning and commercial clone recipes, the vast majority of them will have Citra and/or Simcoe.
 
Nagorg said:
I dont care if people like the beers and want to drink them or brew them. Carry on with these things.. I just dont understand how this became an accepted "style" associated with IPA... I truly think these cloudy, fruit bombs need a style of their own without the IPA association. Lets MAKE IPA CLEAR AGAIN!
Click to expand...

"Accepted Style"? Are you for real? What you consider 'accepted' didn't exist in America prior to around 1980. We had American IPAs but they were nothing like what anyone would consider an IPA today. How boring would it be if beer stayed the same always and never changed or evolved or tried new things? Hell why even have forums like this if only to be so rigid? If you want to argue that the fruity/hazy type should be it's own subset of IPAs then you'll get no argument from me but to suggest they're somehow not part of the IPA category is silly IMO.

Do me favor. Next time you're at your beer store do a little mix and match six pack. Add a dunkels bock, a dopplebock, a helles, an eisbock and a weizenbock (ok that's only 5, so pick something else German to go with the theme :) They're all bocks but they're all uniquely their own style and they wouldn't exist today if the Germans had been as rigid as you are on this.
I dunno, to me a lot of this sounds like the whole hipster "I was drinking IPAs before they were cool, these kids today don't know what's up!" type of thing.

I like good beer. Full stop. If it's hazy and delicious I'm happy, if its crystal clear and delicious I'm happy. It's much more important to nail the balancing act to get all the pieces to play well together (bitter + fruit + malt etc) than clarity.
 
snarf7 said:
If you want to argue that the fruity/hazy type should be it's own subset of IPAs then you'll get no argument from me but to suggest they're somehow not part of the IPA category is silly IMO.
Click to expand...

Its already part of the IPA category. And yes, I suggest that it shouldn't be. I can accept it as a style but it needs its own category outside from IPA.

And I like good beer too and am happy that you and others like the glass-o-muck. Lets just not call it IPA!
 
Nagorg said:
But they aren't really "hoppy". I think the accepted term is "juicy"... And that's exactly what they look like; JUICE!
Click to expand...
The hoppy flavor is often balanced by the use of a lot of grain. Most of the big boy neipas (Tree House, for example) are upwards of 7% and higher. They still use a ton of hops, but it's because they use a ton of grain. You can get very bitter neipas, but the masses want a smooth, easy drinker, with a lot of hop character. Don't be afraid of evolution! Doesn't mean you have to love hazy beer, but the style is fantastic, when done well.

That being said, I have still not come across a crystal clear "juicy" ipa, although there are quite a few commercial breweries marketing them. Seems like the haze contributes to the juicy flavor.
 
Theres a big difference in hazy and a glass o muck . Hazy doesnt bother me . I would not drink a glass o muck . I can assure you there is no muck here . 20181219_143402.jpg
 
snarf7 said:
Do me favor. Next time you're at your beer store do a little mix and match six pack. Add a dunkels bock, a dopplebock, a helles, an eisbock and a weizenbock (ok that's only 5, so pick something else German to go with the theme :) They're all bocks but they're all uniquely their own style and they wouldn't exist today if the Germans had been as rigid as you are on this.
Click to expand...

Ok. Two points to make here:

1) the fact that you’ve listed 5 bocks by their subcategory name proves the point. All I see the OP asking for is clarity in the category. IPA isn’t descriptive enough. When I order an IPA and get a NEIPA or Hazy IPA, I’m disappointed. The least we can do is get more descriptive in our craft for the sake of those who are looking for guidance.

2) when it comes to Germans and beer, nobody is more rigid. See also: Reinheitsgebot. Find me another culture that has instituted a purity law for beer, and I’ll drink a gallon of infected, pellicle-laden nastiness.
 
If you guys are drinking cups full of yeast then you're going to a shitty brewery. A well made "hazy IPA" is way more complex in every aspect than a regular "old west coast IPA". I do agree they are everywhere but honestly 3/4 of them are crap.
 
Beerwildered said:
1) the fact that you’ve listed 5 bocks by their subcategory name proves the point. All I see the OP asking for is clarity in the category.
Click to expand...

You probably should read what OP wrote first before replying, it kind of invalidates your whole argument. I was responding to his comments saying that they should not even have any part of the IPA designation, specifically:

Nagorg said:
Maybe they just dont like IPA? Maybe they really just prefer fruit juice instead... I think its fine that they like that and I do too sometimes. Just dont call it IPA.
Click to expand...

and

Nagorg said:
I dont care if people like the beers and want to drink them or brew them. Carry on with these things.. I just dont understand how this became an accepted "style" associated with IPA... I truly think these cloudy, fruit bombs need a style of their own without the IPA association.
Click to expand...
 
This is what I'm drinking now. It's delicious, it's balanced and it's certainly not a yeast smoothie. It's not clear, but it's not opaque either, sorta translucent. The haze in this particular venture comes from the dry hops and the 1lb of wheat I added to the bill. So according to the haters, is this not an IPA?

RBXtvkn.jpg
 
Question, where does everyone land on white IPA?
Had a couple, delicious but definitely not see through.

Although distinctly labelled as being a white IPA not just "IPA".
 

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