Make IPA Clear Again

[grampamark]

I came across a recent release from Deschutes Brewing recently, a fruity, loads-of-late-hops beer called Neon Daydream. The label called it a “hazy ale”. To me, that’s a better descriptor of that style than is IPA.

Imagine if Alchemist had called Heady Topper a hazy ale when it was introduced. We probably wouldn’t be having this discussion today.

 

[Rick Crane]

I have always associated hazy beer with something that went wrong while brewing. I want nothing to do with a hazy beer. I've had a few they taste OK. Sometimes at a brewery I throw caution to the wind and tell them i will have a glass of what's popular right now. I do mention though to the beer tender, i always thought a hazy beer meant something went wrong. Something probably did go wrong, but you threw a goofy name on it and put some hype behind it and said lets sell it!

 

[day_trippr]

smh

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I have always associated hazy beer with something that went wrong while brewing. I want nothing to do with a hazy beer. I've had a few they taste OK. Sometimes at a brewery I throw caution to the wind and tell them i will have a glass of what's popular right now. I do mention though to the beer tender, i always thought a hazy beer meant something went wrong. Something probably did go wrong, but you threw a goofy name on it and put some hype behind it and said lets sell it!

Well the more hazy (not murky) is a NEIPA, it means the more hop compounds have been biotransformed so the better is the beer, I understand your thinking because it's how it was in most of the styles, but it's outdated nowadays thanks to all the discoveries in the use of hops

 

[applescrap]

I accidentally bought a hazy the other day. I was reaching for a lager from a stack of 12 packs and didn't notice until I got home that it was actually a hazy in the same color packaging as the lager. (I'm not always the most detailed guy!) I'm not sure if the sign was wrong or they were just stacked right next to each other.

It's actually not that bad. If I pour really slowly and leave about 2 oz in the bottom of the can, It pours bright, has a great aroma and enough bite to be refreshing on the palate. If I pour the dregs out of the bottom of the can it's muddled thick and cloudy. The difference is night and day in my opinion.

This is interesting that you found a 12 pack of quality hazy. A 12 pack of the average hazy beers I like would be close to 50 dollars. I must admit I am seeing more and more poor examples, but good beers like king sue are still available. There are a few decent 12 packs out there I suppose, glad you found one. I am drinking light beer mostly now for calories.

For those new to this thread you need reminded that the complainers here are too cheap to have bought a real 4 pack like king sue and I feel this is their real issue, well that and they are talking about beers like juicy bits pina colada that they have never actually had, only think they know what it is like. The op started this discussion using can o bliss as an example. I have harped on this many times because this beer which is 6.99 for a 6 on sale at kroger I found off putting as well. But you know, if can o bliss at 6.99 sucks then king sue at 16 for 4 does too. It's an old tired dog that will never hunt. No one wants an overly bitter crystal 60 bomb except a cheapskate.

 

[bwible]

This is interesting that you found a 12 pack of quality hazy. A 12 pack of the average hazy beers I like would be close to 50 dollars. I must admit I am seeing more and more poor examples, but good beers like king sue are still available. There are a few decent 12 packs out there I suppose, glad you found one. I am drinking light beer mostly now for calories.

For those new to this thread you need reminded that the complainers here are too cheap to have bought a real 4 pack like king sue and I feel this is their real issue, well that and they are talking about beers like juicy bits pina colada that they have never actually had, only think they know what it is like. The op started this discussion using can o bliss as an example. I have harped on this many times because this beer which is 6.99 for a 6 on sale at kroger I found off putting as well. But you know, if can o bliss at 6.99 sucks then king sue at 16 for 4 does too. It's an old tired dog that will never hunt. No one wants an overly bitter crystal 60 bomb except a cheapskate.

You’re talking to people who pay $30 for a 4 pack of a good barleywine. So no, we’re not cheapskates worried about cost.

 

[Gozie Boy]

I had a reality check at a big event (as defined in our current covid world, about 25 people on the back deck with at least some form of social distancing) at my house last week. I had 5 of my best home brews to show off: IPA, Helles lager, brown ale, an ESB (which won 1st in a large local competition), and a stout. These were all neighbors, not a brew community (of which there is none around here). Again, all great beers. The consumption results: 1 brown ale, 4 ESBs (since I bragged about its win), ZERO stouts, ONE IPA! (since I accidentally poured this instead of the lager and they drank it anyway to be nice, but then said they preferred the lager), and a KEG+ of the Helles. Yes, the lager really is great, but that was not the real reason for this.

Obviously this is not representative of the population as a whole, but it definitely is where I live! My problem now is when I brew a batch (typically 10-12 gallons) of non-lager beer, then I am faced with my wife and I having to drink almost the entire batch (there are worse problems to have in life!). The 'good' news is that I will have no shortage of help in draining my lager productions...

 

[bwible]

I had a reality check at a big event (as defined in our current covid world, about 25 people on the back deck with at least some form of social distancing) at my house last week. I had 5 of my best home brews to show off: IPA, Helles lager, brown ale, an ESB (which won 1st in a large local competition), and a stout. These were all neighbors, not a brew community (of which there is none around here). Again, all great beers. The consumption results: 1 brown ale, 4 ESBs (since I bragged about its win), ZERO stouts, ONE IPA! (since I accidentally poured this instead of the lager and they drank it anyway to be nice, but then said they preferred the lager), and a KEG+ of the Helles. Yes, the lager really is great, but that was not the real reason for this.

Obviously this is not representative of the population as a whole, but it definitely is where I live! My problem now is when I brew a batch (typically 10-12 gallons) of non-lager beer, then I am faced with my wife and I having to drink almost the entire batch (there are worse problems to have in life!). The 'good' news is that I will have no shortage of help in draining my lager productions...

Not really a surprise to me. Everybody loves to knock on BudMillerCoors, but the reality is they are billion dollar empires for a reason. Lager beer is still the most popular beer, especially outside “craft beer” circles. The only thing that comes close in my experence is wheat beer. People who don’t like beer like wheat beer.

An interesting side note: I’ve found many women prefer dark beers like stouts and porters, RIS. At least many of the women I know.

 

[NewJersey]

This is my favorite brewery in my state. They do excellent award winning stouts, all kind of barrel aged stuff, they have a coolshop and do spontaneous fermentation, they've out out great saisons, have made many great lagers, and this is their current lineup. Out of all those IPAs only 1 or 2 are not full on New Englands.
They used to have incredible variety. No longer.

Whoever mentioned craft moving to seltzers- my wife and I visit a tiny brewery we like pretty often and I talked to them about seltzers. They take table sugar and water, add a flavor, and ferment. It's easier and way less work. Same price as beers. Some customers want it. Why WOULDN'T craft brewers do this?
Also, every craft brewer making seltzers where I live actually makes stuff that is way better than white claw and all the commercial stuff. Jussayin

 

[bwible]

This is my favorite brewery in my state. They do excellent award winning stouts, all kind of barrel aged stuff, they have a coolshop and do spontaneous fermentation, they've out out great saisons, have made many great lagers, and this is their current lineup. Out of all those IPAs only 1 or 2 are not full on New Englands.
They used to have incredible variety. No longer.

Whoever mentioned craft moving to seltzers- my wife and I visit a tiny brewery we like pretty often and I talked to them about seltzers. They take table sugar and water, add a flavor, and ferment. It's easier and way less work. Same price as beers. Some customers want it. Why WOULDN'T craft brewers do this?
Also, every craft brewer making seltzers where I live actually makes stuff that is way better than white claw and all the commercial stuff. Jussayin

I bought the Seltzer book Chris Colby just put out and I went through it. It’s very difficult to get a clean, neutral fermentation of table sugar and water - even with yeast nutrients, etc. I remember trying this ages ago when alcopops were all the rage. Most homebrewers also don’t filter, so your homemade seltzer is not going to be crystal clear like White Claw or Truly.

If I were going to make seltzer, I’d probably just use vodka and dilute it to about 5% and add flavoring, then force carbonate in a keg. My wife likes pineapple or pina colada. The drawback is you have a full keg of the same flavor and not the variety you get when you buy it. My kegs are 3 gallons so that wouldn’t be awful. What would be awful is having to dedicate a keg to seltzer and not having it available for beer.

I found a great resource for flavorings made specifically for the alcohol industry - Apex flavors.

https://www.apexflavors.com/2 brands own about 65% of the seltzer market. White Claw and Truly. Truly is made by Sam Adams. Take a look at the price of Sam Adams stock right now. It’s over $1,000 a share.

 

[Broothru]

Not really a surprise to me. Everybody loves to knock on BudMillerCoors, but the reality is they are billion dollar empires for a reason. Lager beer is still the most popular beer, especially outside “craft beer” circles.

True words^^^^

Main stream beer drinkers writ large DO NOT "look" (think) like we on this forum do. We (craft brew 'appreciators') like many different beer styles, and like to try new things. Joe Sixpack (the other 90%) just want their Buuddd. And that's O.K. But it's wrong to to think that we comprise anything other than the minority. Man is a creature of habit and most (not all) gravitate to what they grew up watching Dad drink. It takes a motivating factor to break out of the mold you grew up in.

Somewhere along the way we evolved from BMC drinkers to craft beer aficionados. The majority have not. We are a subset of all beer drinkers. Likewise, I view NEIPA fans as a subset of craft beer drinkers. We all have our favorites, and mine just happens to NOT be NEIPAs. I approached the phenomenon with an open mind, and even got within a road trip's 50 miles distance from Alchemist Brewing to score some of the legendary nectar before a family emergency made us turn back. So I went down to the local beer shop, renowned for a top flight selection of rare beers, to snag up a couple of his most highly recommended. Four 4 packs and about $100 later I was left non-plussed and a bit confused as to what the excitement was all about. I feel like I gave it an honest look/see, but concluded that it was just not my cup'o'tea (or mug of beer).

I really like hops and I love trying new, trendy things. NEIPA just didn't light my fire. Maybe it's the haze, After all, sight is a major portion of food and beverage enjoyment, along with taste and smell. Any chef will tell you that presentation plays a huge role in the food industry. After wasting my youth and under-age drinking years swilling cheap $1.00 a 6-pack pseudo beer, anything I drink had better have clarity. Today I work hard to craft a variety of good tasting and good looking beers. Continental lagers (clear, brilliant) are still my favorite, followed closely behind by Blonde ales and West Coast IPAs (depending on my mood, but still clear). There are others that I like as well and brew often, but NEIPAs just never made it into my rotation. Not tryin' to be a beer snob, but neither am I a hipster with a man-bun. Drink what you enjoy and enjoy what you drink. Life's too short for anything else.

 

[applescrap]

You’re talking to people who pay $30 for a 4 pack of a good barleywine. So no, we’re not cheapskates worried about cost.

Except barleywine is awful but anyone who drinks 4 packs of it is cool in my book.

 

[bruce_the_loon]

The drawback is you have a full keg of the same flavor and not the variety you get when you buy it. My kegs are 3 gallons so that wouldn’t be awful. What would be awful is having to dedicate a keg to seltzer and not having it available for beer.

Never tried this, but what about flavouring at the time of serving? Like we used to do with the SodaSteam syrups? Is there anything in the process of flavoured seltzer that precludes having an unflavoured keg and adding the flavour on demand?

 

[gunhaus]

Except barleywine is awful but anyone who drinks 4 packs of it is cool in my book.

Barley wine is only awful if it is not clear.

 

[radwizard]

Barley wine is only awful if it is not clear.

I wish they'd make Barely Wine Clear Again...

 

[balrog]

Ok, I laughed out loud just then

 

[Iseneye]

Four 4 packs and about $100 later I was left non-plussed and a bit confused as to what the excitement was all about. I feel like I gave it an honest look/see, but concluded that it was just not my cup'o'tea (or mug of beer).

If you were that close to the brewery you were ripped off big time. I was there in 2019 and my recollection is around $12-13 for a four pack from the brewery and around $14-15 at shops in Burlington. So based on your $100 you were paying around $25 a four pack.

 

[Dog House Brew]

True words^^^^

Main stream beer drinkers writ large DO NOT "look" (think) like we on this forum do. We (craft brew 'appreciators') like many different beer styles, and like to try new things. Joe Sixpack (the other 90%) just want their Buuddd. And that's O.K. But it's wrong to to think that we comprise anything other than the minority. Man is a creature of habit and most (not all) gravitate to what they grew up watching Dad drink. It takes a motivating factor to break out of the mold you grew up in.

Somewhere along the way we evolved from BMC drinkers to craft beer aficionados. The majority have not. We are a subset of all beer drinkers. Likewise, I view NEIPA fans as a subset of craft beer drinkers. We all have our favorites, and mine just happens to NOT be NEIPAs. I approached the phenomenon with an open mind, and even got within a road trip's 50 miles distance from Alchemist Brewing to score some of the legendary nectar before a family emergency made us turn back. So I went down to the local beer shop, renowned for a top flight selection of rare beers, to snag up a couple of his most highly recommended. Four 4 packs and about $100 later I was left non-plussed and a bit confused as to what the excitement was all about. I feel like I gave it an honest look/see, but concluded that it was just not my cup'o'tea (or mug of beer).

I really like hops and I love trying new, trendy things. NEIPA just didn't light my fire. Maybe it's the haze, After all, sight is a major portion of food and beverage enjoyment, along with taste and smell. Any chef will tell you that presentation plays a huge role in the food industry. After wasting my youth and under-age drinking years swilling cheap $1.00 a 6-pack pseudo beer, anything I drink had better have clarity. Today I work hard to craft a variety of good tasting and good looking beers. Continental lagers (clear, brilliant) are still my favorite, followed closely behind by Blonde ales and West Coast IPAs (depending on my mood, but still clear). There are others that I like as well and brew often, but NEIPAs just never made it into my rotation. Not tryin' to be a beer snob, but neither am I a hipster with a man-bun. Drink what you enjoy and enjoy what you drink. Life's too short for anything else.

If I had grown a man bun, my dad would have smacked me and cut it off. I don’t have hair now, Just say’n
I try really hard to like the NEIPA craze. I’ve found that the OtherHalf stuff style is me. I’ve found that the majority leaves me with an amazement of wtf? Muddled flavors, and an acrid type of something, not bitterness. Too many trying to produce the style without cohesive balance. There is way more to it than haze. The haze is the biproduct if something good happening, not the only intent. Reminds me of the early days of DIPA. More to it than wrecking a tongue.

 

[Broothru]

If you were that close to the brewery you were ripped off big time. I was there in 2019 and my recollection is around $12-13 for a four pack from the brewery and around $14-15 at shops in Burlington. So based on your $100 you were paying around $25 a four pack.

Naw, we were about 50 miles from Burlington when we got a call of a death in the family. Of course, the road trip immediately set a new destination in the GPS.

Since we left Vermont empty handed, a few weeks later I tried to scarf up a few examples of out-of-region brews imported from the Down East area. Since the haze craze had really taken off, any NEIPA was gonna' be expensive and probably of wannabe copy cat quality. $20-$25 for a 4 pack was pretty much the going freight for anything that could pass for NEIPA.

Brooo Brother

 

[Iseneye]

Ok well you missed out big time. Heady topper and focal banger are not the same as what NEIPA is currently. They are intensely bitter, slightly hazy, and massively hoppy.

 

[Broothru]

I remember at the time that there was a website that tracked the liquor stores that were scheduled for deliveries from Alchemist each day. The line started forming before 8 am at the brewery for on site sales, which BTW were limited to two cases: max one of Heady and one case of something else. My "something else" was gonna' be Focal Banger. We'd hoped (last year) to make it back to NE for the Fall, but Covid had other plans. Maybe next year. I really want to be proved wrong re: NEIPA.

Brooo Brother

 

[day_trippr]

Having enjoyed most of The Alchemist's lineup over the years I would contest the notion that Heady or Banger are "intensely bitter".
Yes, they sport impressive IBU numbers - but those are paper numbers. My NEIPAs are similarly characterized by the likes of BeerSmith, but I'd characterize them all as smoothly bitter to a middling IBU. Such is the behavior of whirlpooling at temperatures below the brunt of isomerization...

Cheers!

 

[Jeff Kroosz]

If I had grown a man bun, my dad would have smacked me and cut it off. I don’t have hair now, Just say’n
I try really hard to like the NEIPA craze. I’ve found that the OtherHalf stuff style is me. I’ve found that the majority leaves me with an amazement of wtf? Muddled flavors, and an acrid type of something, not bitterness. Too many trying to produce the style without cohesive balance. There is way more to it than haze. The haze is the biproduct if something good happening, not the only intent. Reminds me of the early days of DIPA. More to it than wrecking a tongue.

I have to agree with, "There is way more to it than haze". An honestly good NEIPA is NOT easy to make. Few examples are cohesive beers.

 

[Nagorg]

good NEIPA is NOT easy to make

And thats evidenced by the plethora of bad examples out there... But, it's what sells and gives folks that giddy feeling when they proclaim how they dont like those bitter "IPA's". They are now in the IPA club!

 

[Bobby_M]

You want to have a lineup - not 7 taps with the same beer.
The brewpub near us has a blonde ale, a red ale, a honey brown ale, a west coast ipa, a stout, a porter, and even sources a cider. They do have one neipa and also a saison. That’s a pretty good lineup that offers something for everybody.

And what would you do when you found that the NEIPA tap outsells the other six taps combined. What if you also found that patrons would sit at the bar and have two NEIPAs and then leave? You would dedicate two taps to two different NEIPA variations. You might even try 3 taps perhaps with the third being a hazy pale ale. Either you're running a successful business or you're running some kind of elitist principals thing like the soup nazi from Seinfeld.

 

[Bobby_M]

The challenge is that classification follows real world usage. Enough breweries have already gone down the NEIPA rabbit hole. A rename would have to be an industry-wide concerted effort or the pioneers would be shooting themselves in the foot. "What's a New England Ale?"... "It's a hazy ale with intense tropical fruit hop aroma and flavor" "Oh you mean a NEIPA?" "No. Stop saying IPA".

The BJCP for example is very clear that it tracks with what people are brewing and is therefore descriptive, not prescriptive. I think enough people understand the intent of the NEIPA at this point and the IPA purists are just going to need to let it go or just demand clear descriptive delineation out in the wild. Product will have to be labeled better with "New England" or "West Coast" and perhaps consistently list IBUs.

 

[NeoBrew]

The challenge is that classification follows real world usage. Enough breweries have already gone down the NEIPA rabbit hole. A rename would have to be an industry-wide concerted effort or the pioneers would be shooting themselves in the foot. "What's a New England Ale?"... "It's a hazy ale with intense tropical fruit hop aroma and flavor" "Oh you mean a NEIPA?" "No. Stop saying IPA".

The BJCP for example is very clear that it tracks with what people are brewing and is therefore descriptive, not prescriptive. I think enough people understand the intent of the NEIPA at this point and the IPA purists are just going to need to let it go or just demand clear descriptive delineation out in the wild. Product will have to be labeled better with "New England" or "West Coast" and perhaps consistently list IBUs.

So you think that those of us who don't care for NEIPA's don't have any consumer power? While there is always going to be a most popular style/flavor due to changing trends, why be so single minded that you alienate your other customers?

I for one tend to avoid ordering any IPA when I am at a bar, and am very tentative in a store, unless I already have had the beer and know I like it. You just cannot tell from the labeling if an IPA is an NEIPA or a WCIPA. Which is a shame, case WCIPA is my favorite stye.

 

[Bobby_M]

So you think that those of us who don't care for NEIPA's don't have any consumer power? While there is always going to be a most popular style/flavor due to changing trends, why be so single minded that you alienate your other customers?

I for one tend to avoid ordering any IPA when I am at a bar, and am very tentative in a store, unless I already have had the beer and know I like it. You just cannot tell from the labeling if an IPA is an NEIPA or a WCIPA. Which is a shame, case WCIPA is my favorite stye.

That's a weird stretch of what I wrote. I'm suggesting that the naming cat is already out of the bag and the logistics of walking it back are challenging to near impossible. I said that the push should be for better naming and descriptions to allow for people who want clear West Coast IPAs to find their product of choice.

 

[NeoBrew]

That's a weird stretch of what I wrote.

My apologies. You have a good point. I think perhaps my cognitive abilities were not quite up to speed this morning!

 

[bwible]

Never tried this, but what about flavouring at the time of serving? Like we used to do with the SodaSteam syrups? Is there anything in the process of flavoured seltzer that precludes having an unflavoured keg and adding the flavour on demand?

Thought about that too. If you don’t put flavoring in the keg then its just vodka and water diluted to around 5% and carbonated. Certainly no reason you can’t do that.

The trick to adding flavor at serving time, I think, is going to be measuring the minute amount of flavoring for a 12 oz serving. Most of the flavorings I listed from Apex are saying add .3 to .6 percent. The smallest size they sell is 2 oz. Let’s say we want to use .5%. In my case I have a 3 gallon keg. So 3 x 128 = 384 oz x .5% = 1.92 oz for the batch. So the 2 oz size is about perfect. If I’ve done the math right. Now 12 oz x .5% = .06 oz? How do you measure 6/100 of an ounce?