Limiting oxidation: effect of purging headspace O2 in a bottle conditioned IPA

[AlexTurnbull]

Hi Dusan,

Fermentation would also have other gases like suphur dioxide that are given off so not a "clean" source of CO².

I would pour it. This link explains it better than me:-

https://sciencing.com/make-carbon-dioxide-6532065.html

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Hi Dusan,

Fermentation would also have other gases like suphur dioxide that are given off so not a "clean" source of CO².

I would pour it. This link explains it better than me:-

https://sciencing.com/make-carbon-dioxide-6532065.html

That might even work indeed...one more variant to test!

I know the permanent CO2 blanket thing is a myth, but I'm also aware that a temporary CO2 blanket is a real thing...
So it may indeed not even be necessary to inject the gas into the headspace from a pressurized can.

But from a practical standpoint, how many bottles would you be able to purge with one of those home made CO2 soda bottles?
And above all, how would you know when the bottle is empty?...

 

[doug293cz]

Hi Dusan,

Fermentation would also have other gases like suphur dioxide that are given off so not a "clean" source of CO².

I would pour it. This link explains it better than me:-

https://sciencing.com/make-carbon-dioxide-6532065.html

Yes, the CO2 coming off of a beer fermentation will contain trace amounts of other gases. The thing to remember is that all of these trace gases were in the beer, and they came off because the concentration in the beer was higher than the equilibrium concentration in the headspace. Thus the beer will not reabsorb the trace gases from the headspace. So, if you purge a keg at atmospheric pressure with the CO2 from fermentation, and then fill that keg with the same beer, none of the trace gases will be reabsorbed by the beer. The same thing would apply to purging bottles with the collected CO2.

However, if you pressurized the off gassed CO2, then the trace gases would be at higher than equilibrium concentration with the beer, so force carbonating with captured CO2 would cause some of the trace gases to be reabsorbed. But, then when spunding the same effect occurs. However if you just purge bottles at atmospheric pressure, the concentration of trace gases goes back down, so no reabsorption.

Note: To be more rigorous, "concentration" in the above discussion should be replaced with "partial pressure," but not everyone understands the physics of partial pressure.

Brew on

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Hi Dusan,
This link explains it better than me:-

https://sciencing.com/make-carbon-dioxide-6532065.html

You can make CO2 with vinegar and baking soda, but how would you store it? It reacts quite fast - too fast to mix up a batch and have a flow of CO2 for all of your bottles. So, you'd need a way to store and gradually release the CO2 (assuming you don't want to mix some up individually for every bottle as you fill them). Also, the reaction isn't using up O2. So if you mix vinegar and baking soda in a bottle with some headspace, you'll actually be pushing out a mix of CO2 and air (still with O2 in it). If you don't have headspace, you'll have a foaming mess. By all means have a go with it to see if you can get it to work, but I think there're much easier ways! A CO2 cylinder with regulator is only about $120 Australian where I live, which is about $80 US. A tank will last a long time if you're just purging bottle headspaces.

Edit: You can also get small cylinders of welding CO2 with regulators at hardware stores quite cheap.

 

[AlexTurnbull]

Hi Taket_al_Tauro,

Use a ballon instead of a pop bottle. Fit the ballon to a valve. When the ballon is empty make more CO².

I am thinking this through as I type but displacing the oxygen should not be that difficult and with some more thought a working method should easily be achieved.

 

[Bilsch]

For me is how much space my bottling wand leaves when I pull it out. But I'm thinking of changing my process, and less head space certainly makes sense.
Do you think would it even be worth thinking about ways of purging and filling a bottle like you would do with keg?

I do a lot of bottle spunding of light German lagers and Kölsch. If I keep the headspace to a minimum and transfer when the yeast is still active then I generally don't see oxidative effects for about a month. In those beers it presents as herbstoffe long before the color darkens.

In my opinion if you tighten up your system such that no oxygen gets in your beer before going in the bottle, i.e. bottle straight from the fermenter and not a bottling bucket etc., all you would need to do is: fill gently, reduce the headspace and use O2 absorbing caps. You may not even need to worry about the purging. But if you did, all the better.

 

[doug293cz]

You can make CO2 with vinegar and baking soda, but how would you store it? It reacts quite fast - too fast to mix up a batch and have a flow of CO2 for all of your bottles. So, you'd need a way to store and gradually release the CO2 (assuming you don't want to mix some up individually for every bottle as you fill them). Also, the reaction isn't using up O2. So if you mix vinegar and baking soda in a bottle with some headspace, you'll actually be pushing out a mix of CO2 and air (still with O2 in it). If you don't have headspace, you'll have a foaming mess. By all means have a go with it to see if you can get it to work, but I think there're much easier ways! A CO2 cylinder with regulator is only about $120 Australian where I live, which is about $80 US. A tank will last a long time if you're just purging bottle headspaces.

Edit: You can also get small cylinders of welding CO2 with regulators at hardware stores quite cheap.

You could fill a sealable container with baking soda, and rig up an acid drip, and a gas bleed and output valve arrangement. Then you just add enough acid to the vessel to create enough CO2 to reduce the headspace to an acceptable CO2 level (this works down to PPB levels, if you control back flow/diffusion into the headspace.) Your system is now primed, so all you have to do is add enough acid to get the CO2 required to purge the volume of interest. Gory implementation details left as an exercise for the reader.

Brew on

 

[Gnomebrewer]

In those beers it presents as herbstoffe long before the color darkens.

I've asked for this before, and never had an answer. Could you please provide a link or article that explains what herbstoffe is please? You're the only person I've ever heard mention it (and you talk about it a lot). Google gives nothing. I've never seen it (that I remember) in any brewing article or book. I know you'll say it's malt bitterness from oxidation, but I'd like to know a bit more about it.

Edit: I've just found a reference to it in a George Fix book. The problem is, I think he might have f'd up - I think it's meant to be gerbstoffe.

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

I do a lot of bottle spunding of light German lagers and Kölsch. If I keep the headspace to a minimum and transfer when the yeast is still active then I generally don't see oxidative effects for about a month. In those beers it presents as herbstoffe long before the color darkens.

In my opinion if you tighten up your system such that no oxygen gets in your beer before going in the bottle, i.e. bottle straight from the fermenter and not a bottling bucket etc., all you would need to do is: fill gently, reduce the headspace and use O2 absorbing caps. You may not even need to worry about the purging. But if you did, all the better.

That sounds geat. Will have to rethink my bottle filling process a bit.
Thanks mate

 

[Gnomebrewer]

That sounds geat. Will have to rethink my bottle filling process a bit.
Thanks mate

If you're really interested in reducing the O2 in bottles, give the krausening method a go. It's not hard, but needs a little bit of effort. It's explained here
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Kraeusening
but it's much easier to use a calculator like the one below, than doing the manual calculations
https://www.brewersfriend.com/gyle-and-krausen-priming-calculator/

 

[Bilsch]

You could fill a sealable container with baking soda, and rig up an acid drip, and a gas bleed and output valve arrangement. Then you just add enough acid to the vessel to create enough CO2 to reduce the headspace to an acceptable CO2 level (this works down to PPB levels, if you control back flow/diffusion into the headspace.) Your system is now primed, so all you have to do is add enough acid to get the CO2 required to purge the volume of interest. Gory implementation details left as an exercise for the reader.

Definitely possible but you'd need some glassware.. a big enough flask and a pressure equalized addition funnel at the minimum. I'd also run it through a gas wash bottle with a weak bicarb solution or your CO2 is going to stink like acetic. Might be cheaper and easier to get the gas cylinder though.

 

[Bilsch]

I've asked for this before, and never had an answer. Could you please provide a link or article that explains what herbstoffe is please? You're the only person I've ever heard mention it (and you talk about it a lot). Google gives nothing. I've never seen it (that I remember) in any brewing article or book. I know you'll say it's malt bitterness from oxidation, but I'd like to know a bit more about it.

Edit: I've just found a reference to it in a George Fix book. The problem is, I think he might have f'd up - I think it's meant to be gerbstoffe.

Maybe he did but for 20 years that's the way I've always heard it. Herbstoffe is the flavor of oxidized malt polyphenols. It's usually the first defect from oxidative damage to beer. People rarely notice it, especially in the US, because it hides nicely behind the hops. If you low oxygen brew light low hopped lagers you will become familiar with it. Otherwise go grab a Früh Kölsch in a bottle from your local beermart. That prominent unplesent bitterness you think are flabby hops.. it isn't.

 

[Iseneye]

I try to stay out of these threads but my post-boil hydro samples during pre-low oxygen days always had an unpleasent bitterness / bite that I did not like. I've been low oxygen for around 5 years now and my hydro samples no longer have that unpleasant taste. Just taste like sweet malt. To me that is due to lack of malt oxidation.

 

[doug293cz]

Definitely possible but you'd need some glassware.. a big enough flask and a pressure equalized addition funnel at the minimum. I'd also run it through a gas wash bottle with a weak bicarb solution or your CO2 is going to stink like acetic. Might be cheaper and easier to get the gas cylinder though.

I didn't say anything about using vinegar or acetic acid. Sulfuric acid would probably be best. I also didn't recommend anyone do this, and agree that just getting set up for bottled CO2 makes more sense.

Brew on

 

[VikeMan]

Note: To be more rigorous, "concentration" in the above discussion should be replaced with "partial pressure," but not everyone understands the physics of partial pressure.

So, it's a little known fact* that John Dalton and William Henry were roommates at University. One evening, while the two studied for the chemistry final, Dalton was humming a Mozart tune, and the following conversation took place...

Henry: John, could you please be quiet? You're breaking my concentration.
Dalton: As you know, I'm partial to Wolfey. But I'll hum more quietly, if that will reduce the pressure.
Henry: That should restore equilibrium.

*not true

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

We should at some point make a summary of the most original ideas that came up in this thread...from introducing bubble wraps in the bottles up to making your own CO2, there are already quite a few!

 

[doug293cz]

We should at some point make a summary of the most original ideas that came up in this thread...from introducing bubble wraps in the bottles up to making your own CO2, there are already quite a few!

We all pretty much already make our own CO2

Brew on

 

[ryanm8]

It will be a little more difficult with a carboy.

What I do is bottle at soft crash temperatures (~60 degrees F), which also helps keep the gunk at the bottom. Add the sugar solution and stir very gently and slowly until you feel the sugar is dispersed decently. You should only be stirring in the top 1/4-1/2 of the beer. If you stir below that, it will start to kick up the gunk on the bottom. Also, if you feel resistance when stirring, then you are stirring too hard.

Then I usually wait 30 minutes before bottling. Doing that I usually get even carbonation without stirring up too much gunk.

Can you explain the batch priming process in the fermenter? I use a 5 gallon glass carboy with a small opening on the top. How do you ensure the sugar gets into even solution and not stir up all the gunk in the bottom?

For what it is worth, I fill bottles between 1 cm and .5 cm from the top and it has worked well. You just don't get that satisfying pfft sound when you pop the top on a bottle.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

It will be a little more difficult with a carboy.

What I do is bottle at soft crash temperatures (~60 degrees F), which also helps keep the gunk at the bottom. Add the sugar solution and stir very gently and slowly until you feel the sugar is dispersed decently. You should only be stirring in the top 1/4-1/2 of the beer. If you stir below that, it will start to kick up the gunk on the bottom. Also, if you feel resistance when stirring, then you are stirring too hard.

Then I usually wait 30 minutes before bottling. Doing that I usually get even carbonation without stirring up too much gunk.

Thanks for the details. I might give your method of dry hopping and bottling a shot one day. Although, when you reach a point where you are finally happy with your process, it takes a lot of motivation to change it...especially as I do not have the chance to brew that often at the moment.

Just a side note concerning my use of a filter bag in the bottling bucket. I'm 100% sure I am not exposing my beer to more O2 as compared to a transfer without going through such a bag. The bag is deep enough that it will reach to the bottom of the bottling bucket. I rinse it and then steam-sterilize it, so it will be compleately soaked with water when I'm using it. And I try to put the transferring hose as deep in the bag as possible. There is possibly even less splashing of beer as compared to when I am not using it. But of course, it remains an open transfer to a bottling bucket...no way around that...

 

[tyrub42]

I try to stay out of these threads but my post-boil hydro samples during pre-low oxygen days always had an unpleasent bitterness / bite that I did not like. I've been low oxygen for around 5 years now and my hydro samples no longer have that unpleasant taste. Just taste like sweet malt. To me that is due to lack of malt oxidation.

Not saying you're wrong, but I generally find all medium-to-highly hopped post-boil samples excessively bitter due to the hop bitterness. Beers with lots of roasted malt also have an off-putting bitterness from that post boil. How did you go about separating the bitter contributions of those from the bitterness you get from oxidized malt?

 

[Bilsch]

Not saying you're wrong, but I generally find all medium-to-highly hopped post-boil samples excessively bitter due to the hop bitterness. Beers with lots of roasted malt also have an off-putting bitterness from that post boil. How did you go about separating the bitter contributions of those from the bitterness you get from oxidized malt?

IMO like a lot of other off flavors it's hard to identify and sort out until you have tasted it separately or in certain beers where it sticks out and thus trained your palate. After that it's easy to taste herbstoffe even behind a medium IBU. Sometimes I wish I didn't know that flavor and could go back to the old days when it was just something from the hops.

 

[tyrub42]

IMO like a lot of other off flavors it's hard to identify and sort out until you have tasted it separately or in certain beers where it sticks out and thus trained your palate. After that it's easy to taste herbstoffe even behind a medium IBU. Sometimes I wish I didn't know that flavor and could go back to the old days when it was just something from the hops.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I often wish I wasn't super sensitive to hop oxidation for the same reason haha. So man imported great beers are just gross by the time I drink them over here. I have to research everyone's shipping methods in advance and stuff.

 

[Bilsch]

So man imported great beers are just gross by the time I drink them over here. I have to research everyone's shipping methods in advance and stuff.

For sure, it is tough to get super fresh ones. Most German brewers are nice enough to print the date of expiration so I spend a lot of time reading bottles and cans in the store.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Just one more side note because I found the thing about "herbstoffe" intriguing, too..

Edit: I've just found a reference to it in a George Fix book. The problem is, I think he might have f'd up - I think it's meant to be gerbstoffe.

I'm no German native speaker but I'm quite at ease with the German language... but I know there is at least one native speaker on this thread, so if I'm wrong please correct me...
That said, Gerbstoffe ist the german word for tanning agents, i.e., chemicals that are used to treat leather. Hystorically those were mainly plant tannins, if I am not mistaken.
So in a brewing context, Gerbstoffe IMO probably refers to tannins being extracted from the grain husks....which also can contribute to a harsh, unpleasant bitterness.

OTOH this "Herbstoffe", whatever it is, refers more to oxidized malt compounds, as I understand, which is a different thing altogether.

The funny thing is that I also did not find anything on the web about it...and upon quick search, absolutely no mention of it on german brewing sites and the main german homebrewing forum.
It seems to be a new german word invented by english-speaking LODO brewing enthusiasts (again, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Edit: I just researched a bit further and found out (or I've been reminded) that tannins ARE polyphenolic molecules, and the poster that came up with Herbstoffe was referring to oxidized malt polyphenols. So the link between Gerbstoffe and Herbstoffe is tighter that I assumed... Probably the concept started as Gerbstoffe and mutated to Herbstoffe along the way...
by the way, the adjective "Herb" means "bitter" in German so that would also make sense.

Edit Number 2: Just to extend this very superfluous post of mine a bit more... LOL just found the "Herbstoffe" note on that George Fix book as well.
"Herbstoffe roughly means grain astringent" in German. That is a rough translation indeed...
I agree with @Gnomebrewer, it was probably supposed to be Gerbstoffe originally. But then again, Herbstoffe, why not. "Bitter, astringent compounds" would make sense as well.
Now I definitely close this parenthesis, sorry for all who lost their valuable time reading this post

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I recently bottled a Pale Ale. It was made with some extra wort from a "wort share" so I don't have great notes on the recipe. I believe the base beer is 85% Pale, 10% Wheat, 5% Munich. As I recall I bittered to 20 IBUs at 30 min (Columbus or Warrior), then added 0.5 oz each of Cascade and Amarillo at 15 min, and 1 oz of each at 0 min and dry hop (I had planned to add less at 0 min and dry hop, but I think I messed up forgetting that it was a 2.5 gal batch).

At bottling time, with thoughts of this thread in my head, I purged the headspace from 4 bottles with a blast of CO2 from my tank. I really did not expect much of a difference, but I was surprised when I cracked open the first of the purged bottles yesterday. I did not do a focused side by side blind taste test (I will do that with another pair) but with just sampling the two side by side I did not notice a huge difference in the taste. These have been in the bottle for maybe 3 weeks.

Just one data point without much sensory to back it up, but seemed worth sharing (purged on the right):

 

[Bilsch]

Just one more side note because I found the thing about "herbstoffe" intriguing, too..

The funny thing is that I also did not find anything on the web about it...and upon quick search, absolutely no mention of it on german brewing sites and the main german homebrewing forum.
It seems to be a new german word invented by english-speaking LODO brewing enthusiasts (again, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Oh yes this is probabaly something made up by LoDo enthusiasts, but then again maybe not. So I did my own exhaustive search (Google, 2 minutes) and found at least 3 references to it on the first page of results. (And yes it is mentioned in the German Brewing Forum many times.) And then on Google, 11 results down, here is this from the German book:

Alkoholische Genussmittel
By Karl-Gustav Bergner, et al. 1968

(Google did an automatic search of the text for "Herbstoffe")

Der besonders die hellen biere charakterisierende Bittergeschmack ist hauptsächlich abhängig von Menge, Art und Verarbeitung des Hopfens, wobei in erster Linie der Gehalt an Iso-a-Säure im Bier entscheidend ist.

Unangenehme Bitterstoffe (Herbstoffe) können auch durch das Malz in das Bier gelangen; es genugt schon geringe Konzentration von Gerb und Herb-stoffen, um einen kratzigen, derben und unedlen Geschmack hervorzurufen. Auch die Hefe übt einen Einfluß auf die Bittere des Bieres aus (vgl. S. 142).

Die sog. “Vollmundigkeit” ein manchmal etwas irreführender und nicht genau zu definierender Begriff bezieht sich auf einen bestimmten Schwellenwert an Geschmacksempfindungen Körper wie sie durch höhermolekulare substanzen (hauptsächlich Kohlenhydrate und Eiweiß) sowie Hopfenbitterstoffe hervorgerufen warden. Nacht vollmundige Biere bezeichnet man als dünn leer und nicht immer als Abwertung als leicht. Die Rezenz eines Bieres wird besonders durch die angereicherte CO2 Menge erzeugt Wirkung auf die Geschmacksorgane allerdings mehr mechanisch ist und den einem frischen Bier eigenen prickelnden Geschmack verursacht.

And the translation:
The bitter taste that characterizes the light beers mainly depends on the amount, type and processing of the hops, whereby the content of iso-a-acid in the beer is primarily decisive.

Unpleasant bitter substances (herbaceous substances) can also get into the beer through the malt; even a low concentration of tannins and herbaceous substances is enough to produce a scratchy, coarse and base taste. Yeast also influences the bitterness of the beer (see p. 142).


The so-called "full-bodiedness" a sometimes somewhat misleading and not exactly definable term refers to a certain threshold value of taste sensations body as they are caused by higher molecular substances (mainly carbohydrates and protein) as well as hop bitter substances. Full-bodied beers at night are described as thinly empty and not always as devaluing as light. The reference of a beer is particularly caused by the enriched amount of CO2. The effect on the taste organs is more mechanical, however, and causes the tingling taste of a fresh beer.


Whew.. that took almost 5 whole minutes to find, then cut and paste this.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

So herbstoffe actually means 'herbaceous substances'? That makes sense given the the meaning of 'herb' and 'stoffe' in German.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Whew.. that took almost 5 whole minutes to find, then cut and paste this.

ouups...then sorry that you lost 5 minutes of your valuable time (plus maybe 1 or 2 additional reading my completely superfluous - now even more than ever - post) because of a troglodyte like me who is not even able to search on Google

Seriously though, 1 point for you
Next time I'll think twice before coming to the idea of posting ******** on HBT

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

So herbstoffe actually means 'herbaceous substances'? That makes sense given the the meaning of 'herb' and 'stoffe' in German

No IMO it means more "bitter, astringent substances or compounds".
But probably @Bilsch is able to provide more accurate information on the exact definition.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Just one data point without much sensory to back it up, but seemed worth sharing (purged on the right):

Only one data point, but ...



... for those who brew extract+steep and get darker than expected color from their batches, maybe it's not the extract?

 

[Dusan Kovacevic]

I recently bottled a Pale Ale. It was made with some extra wort from a "wort share" so I don't have great notes on the recipe. I believe the base beer is 85% Pale, 10% Wheat, 5% Munich. As I recall I bittered to 20 IBUs at 30 min (Columbus or Warrior), then added 0.5 oz each of Cascade and Amarillo at 15 min, and 1 oz of each at 0 min and dry hop (I had planned to add less at 0 min and dry hop, but I think I messed up forgetting that it was a 2.5 gal batch).

At bottling time, with thoughts of this thread in my head, I purged the headspace from 4 bottles with a blast of CO2 from my tank. I really did not expect much of a difference, but I was surprised when I cracked open the first of the purged bottles yesterday. I did not do a focused side by side blind taste test (I will do that with another pair) but with just sampling the two side by side I did not notice a huge difference in the taste. These have been in the bottle for maybe 3 weeks.

Just one data point without much sensory to back it up, but seemed worth sharing (purged on the right):

View attachment 677082

Absolutely great. I love that purging the headspace is confirmed as a valid technique by so many independent sources on completly different setups and recepies.
There is no doubt that it works.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

for those who brew extract+steep and get darker than expected color from their batches, maybe it's not the extract?

Never did extract, but I was wondering the same once when one of my first IPAs turned out darker than expected based on the malt used, and the one before it was ligther even though the malts were darker (but wonder what? It had less than half of the dry hops of the second one)... now I know why

 

[Bilsch]

No IMO it means more "bitter, astringent substances or compounds".
But probably @Bilsch is able to provide more accurate information on the exact definition.

IMO it matters little what the literal definition of the word is since it was coined at a time when they didn't fully understand the effects of oxidation in beer anyway. They knew enough that there was an off flavor that originated with certain malt compounds that when treated badly, in the brewery or during storage, had an unpleasant taste. It wasn't until the 70's when the Germans and Japanese started doing real in depth studies of oxidative damage of beer. Besides that there are many terms in brewing with German origin that are not easy to know the meaning simply looking at the literal translation, for example; braun hefe, rack, lauter, krausen, hopfenstopfen etc.

 

[tyrub42]

Well, I'm now 4 batches into my experiments with adding ascorbic acid at bottling and I have to say the results are very noticeable.

It was not a conclusion I wanted to rush to, as I have already been using CO2 purging, slow fills with the beer gun, and almost no headspace; and those alone have generally kept noticeable oxidation away (meaning noticeable color changes, muted hop flavor/aroma, or that specific 'homebrewy' off flavor that comes with oxidized hoppy homebrew). But what has convinced me is something I mentioned earlier in this thread, and that is my tester bottles.

When I bottle, my spigot is slightly above the bottom of the bucket. This means that for 4ish bottles, I have to tilt the bucket to fill them, which can agitate the beer slightly and result in some oxidation. For the last bottle, there is no way to fill it at all with the spigot, and instead of that, I have to purge a bottle, and then put a funnel and strainer onto it, and pour the rest of the beer from the bucket into the bottle. Even though the bottle is purged, this obviously is a horrible way to fill, and I only tend to use this last bottle to test my carbonation after 3-6 days. With darker beers, it's sometimes enjoyable and drinkable, but with hoppy stuff, all of the classic signs of oxidation tend to be present when I drink it. I often won't finish the bottle because of this.

With the last four batches of beer that I've done, the tester bottle has actually tasted clean and fresh, and the aroma has been almost perfect. Now, it's still obviously not going to be the best beer of the batch (the strainer misses some particulate, the carbonation is often not quite full, and hop aroma may still be slightly less bright than the rest of the batch), but of the four: a NEDIPA, a Red X SMASH, a Nelson Rye IPA, and a hoppy Amber, all of them have been in the best shape of any testers I've tried in over 50 batches of CO2 purged bottle fills. Even the NEDIPA hopped at 3lbs/bbl pellet and another 1.25lbs/bbl cryo pellet, was hazy golden from the tester with none of the expected darkening.

This is all anecdotal of course, and it's only been four batches, but based on this, I'm thrilled. Here's how I've been adding the ascorbic, in case anyone is curoius:

-I boil my bottling sugar for 15 min at a slow boil. At the beginning I add a tiny bit of KMB (like 1/6-1/4 or a tab) at the beginning of the boil. At 'flamout' I add the ascorbic, because it can apparently degrade slightly when boiled. I typically end up with 7 gallons in the bottling bucket, so I add 7 grams of ascorbic. It then gets mixed in with the KMB and bottling sugar in the bucket. The KMB is because of something I read about ascorbic having the possibility to create a super oxidizing chemical under some circumstances, which would then be broken down by the presence of a small amount of sulfite. I haven't tried it without the KMB and I don't intend to, but people have added just ascorbic to bottles with success. On my end, if I have the KMB, I figure I might as well use it.

That's about it. I don't know what ascorbic would do on its own, or how much it would help without CO2 purging headspace, but it's definitely been a change I've noticed so far, so I would imagine it would be even more noticeable if you're bottling without purging (but still...purge )

 

[Miraculix]

Can somebody please provide a list of what would be necessary to get if somebody would want to purge the bottlenecks with co2 but use the co2 only for this?

I am having a hard time understanding what's necessary and what not as I don't force carb or do anything with co2.

The easiest way would be those wine preserving gas cans, but those are really expensive. Is there any cheaper option?

 

[tyrub42]

Can somebody please provide a list of what would be necessary to get if somebody would want to purge the bottlenecks with co2 but use the co2 only for this?

I am having a hard time understanding what's necessary and what not as I don't force carb or do anything with co2.

The easiest way would be those wine preserving gas cans, but those are really expensive. Is there any cheaper option?

At bare minimum you'd need a co2 tank and a regulator, as well as some tubing. You could try filling something with co2 from fermentation, but it would likely be a difficult process full of troubleshooting.

Ideally, you would also have a beer gun, but those are around 100 USD and you could try doing it without one.

I'd say wait and see if you can find a co2 can used for not too much money. I'm not in the US so I'm not sure if they're allowed to ship them.

For now, though, if you can just fill bottles without headspace and use that Ascorbic Acid method I mentioned above, it would likely make a huge difference and would be pretty much free. Good place to start IMO

 

[Miraculix]

At bare minimum you'd need a co2 tank and a regulator, as well as some tubing. You could try filling something with co2 from fermentation, but it would likely be a difficult process full of troubleshooting.

Ideally, you would also have a beer gun, but those are around 100 USD and you could try doing it without one.

I'd say wait and see if you can find a co2 can used for not too much money. I'm not in the US so I'm not sure if they're allowed to ship them.

For now, though, if you can just fill bottles without headspace and use that Ascorbic Acid method I mentioned above, it would likely make a huge difference and would be pretty much free. Good place to start IMO

Thanks for the tips!

Bottles without headspace are likely to crack during bottle conditioning. A little bit a of air is necessary for the liquid to expand if necessary.

Anyhow, I am also not in the us but in Germany.

 

[Miraculix]

Well......

How about filling an airtight big plastic bag with co2 during fermentation, and then using a pump for basketballs to suck out some co2 and inject it into the liquid to create some foam and to cap on this foam?

Cheap and dirty but might work?

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Well......

How about filling an airtight big plastic bag with co2 during fermentation, and then using a pump for basketballs to suck out some co2 and inject it into the liquid to create some foam and to cap on this foam?

Cheap and dirty but might work?

Maybe one of those portable keg chargers that work with small CO2 cartridges could work? I think someone else on this thread already posted about these...They are fairly cheap, and in the long run most probably a cheaper option than the wine preserving gas...if it works, that is.
Does someone here have experience with those and say whether they could be used for this purpose?

 

[InspectorJon]

Bottles without headspace are likely to crack during bottle conditioning. A little bit a of air is necessary for the liquid to expand if necessary.

Several people, including myself have reported success bottling with .25 inches or .5 cm head space. The NEIPAs I have bottled this way directly from the fermenter have shown no signs of oxidation for up to 2 months. I can’t say beyond that as the beer was all gone by then.