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Limiting oxidation: effect of purging headspace O2 in a bottle conditioned IPA

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BrewnWKopperKat

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Bottles without headspace are likely to crack during bottle conditioning. A little bit a of air is necessary for the liquid to expand if necessary.
Several people, including myself have reported success bottling with .25 inches or .5 cm head space.
Anecdotes can be a good starting point.

Knowing the specific type of bottles, and confirming their durability for being used this way, could be a helpful next step.
 

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Several people, including myself have reported success bottling with .25 inches or .5 cm head space. The NEIPAs I have bottled this way directly from the fermenter have shown no signs of oxidation for up to 2 months. I can’t say beyond that as the beer was all gone by then.
Anecdotes can be a good starting point.

Knowing the specific type of bottles, and confirming their durability for being used this way, could be a helpful next step.
Type of bottle won't matter. The volume of headspace has very little affect on the headspace pressure, unless the headspace volume is large, and in that case the headspace pressure and carb level will both be low. If interested I can go thru the science and math.

It's the case of zero headspace that can be problematic, but this is because of liquid expansion, not gas pressure in the headspace.

Brew on :mug:
 

tyrub42

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Several people, including myself have reported success bottling with .25 inches or .5 cm head space. The NEIPAs I have bottled this way directly from the fermenter have shown no signs of oxidation for up to 2 months. I can’t say beyond that as the beer was all gone by then.
I ran out of co2 when bottling last year and managed to get three months before I finished the NEIPA. No color change, although it was refrigerated the whole time after it was carbed. Hop aroma and taste muted slightly with age, although that happens to every beer.
 

tyrub42

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Forgot to include that I bottled with 'no head space' by which I mean roughly half an inch when cold. Basically to right around the base of of the head of the 600ml bottle
 

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Type of bottle won't matter. The volume of headspace has very little affect on the headspace pressure, unless the headspace volume is large, and in that case the headspace pressure and carb level will both be low. If interested I can go thru the science and math.

It's the case of zero headspace that can be problematic, but this is because of liquid expansion, not gas pressure in the headspace.

Brew on :mug:
Yes, that's what I was after, the expansion of the liquid, not the pressure within a small headspace.

Water cannot be compressed as easily as gasses can. This means that if it wants to expand, it expands. If it has to crack a bottle for this, no problem for the water to do so.
 
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Taket_al_Tauro

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Well, I'm now 4 batches into my experiments with adding ascorbic acid at bottling and I have to say the results are very noticeable.

It was not a conclusion I wanted to rush to, as I have already been using CO2 purging, slow fills with the beer gun, and almost no headspace; and those alone have generally kept noticeable oxidation away (meaning noticeable color changes, muted hop flavor/aroma, or that specific 'homebrewy' off flavor that comes with oxidized hoppy homebrew). But what has convinced me is something I mentioned earlier in this thread, and that is my tester bottles.

When I bottle, my spigot is slightly above the bottom of the bucket. This means that for 4ish bottles, I have to tilt the bucket to fill them, which can agitate the beer slightly and result in some oxidation. For the last bottle, there is no way to fill it at all with the spigot, and instead of that, I have to purge a bottle, and then put a funnel and strainer onto it, and pour the rest of the beer from the bucket into the bottle. Even though the bottle is purged, this obviously is a horrible way to fill, and I only tend to use this last bottle to test my carbonation after 3-6 days. With darker beers, it's sometimes enjoyable and drinkable, but with hoppy stuff, all of the classic signs of oxidation tend to be present when I drink it. I often won't finish the bottle because of this.

With the last four batches of beer that I've done, the tester bottle has actually tasted clean and fresh, and the aroma has been almost perfect. Now, it's still obviously not going to be the best beer of the batch (the strainer misses some particulate, the carbonation is often not quite full, and hop aroma may still be slightly less bright than the rest of the batch), but of the four: a NEDIPA, a Red X SMASH, a Nelson Rye IPA, and a hoppy Amber, all of them have been in the best shape of any testers I've tried in over 50 batches of CO2 purged bottle fills. Even the NEDIPA hopped at 3lbs/bbl pellet and another 1.25lbs/bbl cryo pellet, was hazy golden from the tester with none of the expected darkening.

This is all anecdotal of course, and it's only been four batches, but based on this, I'm thrilled. Here's how I've been adding the ascorbic, in case anyone is curoius:

-I boil my bottling sugar for 15 min at a slow boil. At the beginning I add a tiny bit of KMB (like 1/6-1/4 or a tab) at the beginning of the boil. At 'flamout' I add the ascorbic, because it can apparently degrade slightly when boiled. I typically end up with 7 gallons in the bottling bucket, so I add 7 grams of ascorbic. It then gets mixed in with the KMB and bottling sugar in the bucket. The KMB is because of something I read about ascorbic having the possibility to create a super oxidizing chemical under some circumstances, which would then be broken down by the presence of a small amount of sulfite. I haven't tried it without the KMB and I don't intend to, but people have added just ascorbic to bottles with success. On my end, if I have the KMB, I figure I might as well use it.

That's about it. I don't know what ascorbic would do on its own, or how much it would help without CO2 purging headspace, but it's definitely been a change I've noticed so far, so I would imagine it would be even more noticeable if you're bottling without purging (but still...purge :) )
Cool, thanks for sharing.
This seems so easy and cheap that I must try it. Of course not as a substitute, but as an addition to headspace purging or
high bottle fills.
However I would prefer not having to use the additional KMB or SMB if possible...

What do you think, would it be meaningful to introduce the ascorbic acid already at dry hopping time?
This might help in scavenging the O2 introduced with the dry hops.
Would it still be effective at bottling time, a few days later? Or would one need to provide a new addition?

Also, do you know if the amount you used has any effect on lowering the pH of the beer?
Or is it too little of a dosis to have a significant effect?

Anyhow I want to read myself a bit deeper into this subject.
 

tyrub42

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Cool, thanks for sharing.
This seems so easy and cheap that I must try it. Of course not as a substitute, but as an addition to headspace purging or
high bottle fills.
However I would prefer not having to use the additional KMB or SMB if possible...

What do you think, would it be meaningful to introduce the ascorbic acid already at dry hopping time?
This might help in scavenging the O2 introduced with the dry hops.
Would it still be effective at bottling time, a few days later? Or would one need to provide a new addition?

Also, do you know if the amount you used has any effect on lowering the pH of the beer?
Or is it too little of a dosis to have a significant effect?

Anyhow I want to read myself a bit deeper into this subject.
I'm far from an expert, but to the best of my knowledge, yes you could introduce it earlier and it should still be in there working at bottling time assuming it hasn't all reacted by then. I have to say, though, I don't think dry hopping tends to introduce o2 to a large degree unless you're doing it at terminal gravity and highest temp AND using a bucket where you take the lid completely off. I use something similar to a 'better bottle' (I think they call it), and raise temp for my d-rest at or after the last dry hop charge, and this all takes co2 out of solution and keeps the bubbles coming. If you have color change already at bottling time, though, sure it's worth a try.

I haven't noticed a difference in sourness but haven't pH tested it. It would have to add some, but I haven't noticed it being enough to notice beers tasting noticeably tart. More research should be available if it's a concern. Worst case, you'd have to pH test the beer before adding it, and then test it again right after (or shake out the co2 and then test the final beer).

You could add it without the sulfite but there is that hypothetical risk of creating a super oxidant (I can't recall the chemical reaction but I think it occasionally reacts with something to make some sort of peroxide chem). I have not found anyone reporting this experience, though, so it may be a very very rare circumstance.

Hope this helps. Please let me know if you try anything and how it works 🍻
 

tyrub42

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Yes, that's what I was after, the expansion of the liquid, not the pressure within a small headspace.

Water cannot be compressed as easily as gasses can. This means that if it wants to expand, it expands. If it has to crack a bottle for this, no problem for the water to do so.
This has happened to me. The first time felt a little stupid. The second felt very stupid haha. That small amount of headspace solves the problem 🍻
 
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Taket_al_Tauro

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I'm far from an expert, but to the best of my knowledge, yes you could introduce it earlier and it should still be in there working at bottling time assuming it hasn't all reacted by then. I have to say, though, I don't think dry hopping tends to introduce o2 to a large degree unless you're doing it at terminal gravity and highest temp AND using a bucket where you take the lid completely off. I use something similar to a 'better bottle' (I think they call it), and raise temp for my d-rest at or after the last dry hop charge, and this all takes co2 out of solution and keeps the bubbles coming. If you have color change already at bottling time, though, sure it's worth a try.

I haven't noticed a difference in sourness but haven't pH tested it. It would have to add some, but I haven't noticed it being enough to notice beers tasting noticeably tart. More research should be available if it's a concern. Worst case, you'd have to pH test the beer before adding it, and then test it again right after (or shake out the co2 and then test the final beer).

You could add it without the sulfite but there is that hypothetical risk of creating a super oxidant (I can't recall the chemical reaction but I think it occasionally reacts with something to make some sort of peroxide chem). I have not found anyone reporting this experience, though, so it may be a very very rare circumstance.

Hope this helps. Please let me know if you try anything and how it works
Thanks, man, for the details!
My dry hopping process looks fairly similar to yours. I also seem to always have positive C02 pressure and some bubbles coming out during the DH. I used to ferment and dry hop in buckets and even there, with the wide opening and all, I did not experience any evident darkening from dry hopping to bottling. From the last brew I changed to Speidels and that makes it now possible to dry hop via a small opening on the top, so it should get even better from now. So yeah, you are right it is probably overkill to add ascorbic at dry hopping time.

Concerning the potential risk of creating a super oxidant by using only ascorbic: I read it might be especially a problem if you have significant amounts of trace metals (Fe, Cu,...), either from equipment or grain bill, or both. Now I do not have any copper in my system, which is by far the main problematic metal according to the LODO guys (please correct me if I'm wrong), and the only stainless would be the kettle, the lauter tun and my IC. All cold-side is happening in plastic. Still, it is difficult to judge whether this could be a problem since the information available does not seem to be conclusive.
It is just that I would like to avoid adding extra chemicals to my brews if not necessary. I would be willing to make an exception for the ascorbic given its nature and the fact you evidently had good results using it for hoppy beers.
 

tyrub42

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Thanks, man, for the details!
My dry hopping process looks fairly similar to yours. I also seem to always have positive C02 pressure and some bubbles coming out during the DH. I used to ferment and dry hop in buckets and even there, with the wide opening and all, I did not experience any evident darkening from dry hopping to bottling. From the last brew I changed to Speidels and that makes it now possible to dry hop via a small opening on the top, so it should get even better from now. So yeah, you are right it is probably overkill to add ascorbic at dry hopping time.

Concerning the potential risk of creating a super oxidant by using only ascorbic: I read it might be especially a problem if you have significant amounts of trace metals (Fe, Cu,...), either from equipment or grain bill, or both. Now I do not have any copper in my system, which is by far the main problematic metal according to the LODO guys (please correct me if I'm wrong), and the only stainless would be the kettle, the lauter tun and my IC. All cold-side is happening in plastic. Still, it is difficult to judge whether this could be a problem since the information available does not seem to be conclusive.
It is just that I would like to avoid adding extra chemicals to my brews if not necessary. I would be willing to make an exception for the ascorbic given its nature and the fact you evidently had good results using it for hoppy beers.
That sounds about right from memory, but it may also have to do with your groundwater. However, from the way you're describing it it sounds like you're using RO water and building your water chemistry from scratch. For me, I already use sulfite for chloramine, so adding a tiny bit more at bottling isn't an issue for me.

Again, I have no chemistry background and am also still new to these additions, so hopefully someone else can provide better answers than me on this one. Either way, very interested to hear how it works out for you 🍻
 
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Taket_al_Tauro

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That sounds about right from memory, but it may also have to do with your groundwater. However, from the way you're describing it it sounds like you're using RO water and building your water chemistry from scratch. For me, I already use sulfite for chloramine, so adding a tiny bit more at bottling isn't an issue for me.
No, I'm using my tap water. It has fairly high alkalinity but I adjust with phosphoric acid as necessary (both mash and sparge water), and brewing salts depending on the style. And I started checking pH more thoroughly throughout the process a few batches back. That has given me great results and I don't see the need to bother with RO water for my system/process. Besides that, we are fortunate to have very good quality tap water here and concentrations of heavy metals are very low, virtually zero I think.
 

tyrub42

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No, I'm using my tap water. It has fairly high alkalinity but I adjust with phosphoric acid as necessary (both mash and sparge water), and brewing salts depending on the style. And I started checking pH more thoroughly throughout the process a few batches back. That has given me great results and I don't see the need to bother with RO water for my system/process. Besides that, we are fortunate to have very good quality tap water here and concentrations of heavy metals are very low, virtually zero I think.
Interesting! I thought almost all tap had chloramine. You're luckier than me. I'm in Taiwan and we definitely have chloramine in ours here in Taipei
 
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Interesting! I thought almost all tap had chloramine. You're luckier than me. I'm in Taiwan and we definitely have chloramine in ours here in Taipei
No, we do not have any chloramine in our tap water, we are that fortunate. I am heading from Switzerland, you know, purest water from the Alps and all that ;)
And funnily, this is indeed still one of the main marketing arguments of the Swiss macro breweries who produce mediocre lager beer at best. If pure water would be all that it takes to produce good beer!

Edit: AFAIK drinking water is being treated here too, but they probably can get away with less aggressive means than chloramine most of the time. But I'm really no expert here, so don't know what they are doing exactly...In any case I never smelled any chlorine in my tap water.
 
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tyrub42

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No, we do not have any chloramine in our tap water, we are that fortunate. I am heading from Switzerland, you know, purest water from the Alps and all that ;)
And funnily, this is indeed still one of the main marketing arguments of the Swiss macro breweries who produce mediocre lager beer at best. If pure water would be all that it takes to produce good beer!

Edit: AFAIK drinking water is being treated here too, but they probably can get away with less aggressive means than chloramine most of the time. But I'm really no expert here, so don't know what they are doing exactly...In any case I never smelled any chlorine in my tap water.
I think that's all that really matters. The chloramine test is mostly just boiling some tap water for a few min, and then smelling/tasting. Swiss groundwater FTW 🙂
 
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Taket_al_Tauro

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Swiss groundwater FTW 🙂
Now the water flowing from taps at my original home village would probably be the Ferrari of natural brewing waters: That is really coming directly from a spring in the mountains. Extremely soft, virtually zero limestone and other minerals, slightly acidic. A blank slate in its natural form .
Did not have the chance top brew with that yet, though :)
 

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How about a bottle with vinegar, baking soda and tubing?

Should produce enough co2 that the tubing could be inserted into a bottle of beer and create co2 foam.... Hmmm.... Only problem is, the reaction is rather quick.
 
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Hmmm.... Only problem is, the reaction is rather quick.
Yes it is, I can confirm. Only did this once as a child as a "little chemist" experiment. The result was an exploded balloon and a mess in the whole kitchen.

The only practical way I can imagine would be to use your bottle of soda/vinegar to fill balloons with CO2, and then attach tubing to these balloons and some kind of valve to purge bottles.
If you should have any success, please tell me! :)
 

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Thanks, man, for the details!
My dry hopping process looks fairly similar to yours. I also seem to always have positive C02 pressure and some bubbles coming out during the DH. I used to ferment and dry hop in buckets and even there, with the wide opening and all, I did not experience any evident darkening from dry hopping to bottling. From the last brew I changed to Speidels and that makes it now possible to dry hop via a small opening on the top, so it should get even better from now. So yeah, you are right it is probably overkill to add ascorbic at dry hopping time.

Concerning the potential risk of creating a super oxidant by using only ascorbic: I read it might be especially a problem if you have significant amounts of trace metals (Fe, Cu,...), either from equipment or grain bill, or both. Now I do not have any copper in my system, which is by far the main problematic metal according to the LODO guys (please correct me if I'm wrong), and the only stainless would be the kettle, the lauter tun and my IC. All cold-side is happening in plastic. Still, it is difficult to judge whether this could be a problem since the information available does not seem to be conclusive.
It is just that I would like to avoid adding extra chemicals to my brews if not necessary. I would be willing to make an exception for the ascorbic given its nature and the fact you evidently had good results using it for hoppy beers.

Just imagine how good the beer would be if you excluded oxygen from all parts of the brewing process!

Burn the witch!
 
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Taket_al_Tauro

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Just imagine how good the beer would be if you excluded oxygen from all parts of the brewing process!

Burn the witch!
Well, I know from trusted sources other than myself, my family and friends that it is at least not so bad 😉
But of course, there is still lots of room for improvement, and the sky is the O2-devoid limit.
I'm just not ready yet to go down that full-fledged LODO rabbit hole... kegging setup for instance...not an option for now.
 

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I'm still monitoring those bottles for colour change. It's been month and a half now since bottleing so here is a fresh pic. I'll continue to take pics evey week for next few months and will keep you guys posted of any changes.
I am sure it is in this thread somewhere, but could you review (or point me to) the "Cap on Foam" process? Is that a process that does not involve using CO2?
 

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I am sure it is in this thread somewhere, but could you review (or point me to) the "Cap on Foam" process? Is that a process that does not involve using CO2?
Well it's not the real cap on foam ( The real one refers to filling bottles from kegs). Anyhow...The "technique" here is to submerge the nozzle into the beer and spray (whatever gas or mix of gases you are using). The idea is that foam you produce (bubbles filled with the gas you are spraying) would push out the air and when the foam reaches the rim of the bottle ( or pours out a bit) you cap the bottle.. on foam. In theory this should work better than just spraying the empty headspace as gases don't really push out one another like we like to imagine but they rather mix.
Now I haven't noticed any visual difference between "purging" headspace and "cap on foam", yet. Which doesen't meant there isn't any diference, there may very well be but it isn't visible. Also, head space is only tiney with small oppening(and you hold a cap over most of it when spraying) and you probably can push out most of the air and replace it with your gas. I dont belive you could do that with, say, empty glass.
Hope this helps...
 

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I did some testing too:
The left one has Co2 bursted to empty bottle and before capping. The right one is capped without bursting Co2 at all. So the color is the same. But I can taste the difference for shure.
With Co2 bursted the taste is brighter, cleaner and less sweet. The hops are more present and the smell is more pleasing.
The other is ok too, but more sweet and a bit muddy.

These are both bottled and bottlecarbed 5 weeks ago.

Ps. There are a bit too much Chrystal Malt in this Apa, that's why the color is so brown. I think with lighter beer the difference would be visible also.
 

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I boil my bottling sugar for 15 min at a slow boil. At the beginning I add a tiny bit of KMB (like 1/6-1/4 or a tab) at the beginning of the boil. At 'flamout' I add the ascorbic, because it can apparently degrade slightly when boiled.
Hi Tyrub42!
So I bottled my first attempt at a "real" NEIPA last Sunday and I tried your ascorbic acid method (but without SMB/KMB, fingers crossed, we'll see what happens, if anything happens).
Besides that I followed exactly your procedure. However, I am now asking myself whether it was really a good idea to add the ascorbic to a near boiling solution. From what I have heard, ascorbic acid (vitamin C) degrades fairly quickly and in a significant way when exposed to high temperatures, as in cooking. Where did you find the info that it degrades only "slightly" when boiled?

Anyway, hope there was still more than enough in there to have an effect: I applied your dosage of roughly 1 gram per gallon. The recommended dose on the package was about 5 times less than that!
 

tyrub42

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Hi Tyrub42!
So I bottled my first attempt at a "real" NEIPA last Sunday and I tried your ascorbic acid method (but without SMB/KMB, fingers crossed, we'll see what happens, if anything happens).
Besides that I followed exactly your procedure. However, I am now asking myself whether it was really a good idea to add the ascorbic to a near boiling solution. From what I have heard, ascorbic acid (vitamin C) degrades fairly quickly and in a significant way when exposed to high temperatures, as in cooking. Where did you find the info that it degrades only "slightly" when boiled?

Anyway, hope there was still more than enough in there to have an effect: I applied your dosage of roughly 1 gram per gallon. The recommended dose on the package was about 5 times less than that!
I found a chart online but I'm not sure that it was correct. I will say, though, that it's had it's intended effect for me when added to the near-boiling solution or even at the beginning. I think you'll see great results.

Did you co2 purge or leave almost no headspace? Or just use the AA and bottle normally?
 
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I found a chart online but I'm not sure that it was correct. I will say, though, that it's had it's intended effect for me when added to the near-boiling solution or even at the beginning. I think you'll see great results.

Did you co2 purge or leave almost no headspace? Or just use the AA and bottle normally?
Hi, thanks for your reply!
I followed my by-now usual routine for bottling hoppy beers, i.e. purging the headspace. So the AA was something additional. I sampled the first bottles last weekend after 1 week of conditioning, and besides some hop burn (that hopefully will fade away), they tasted great. Color is also spot on for the moment, fingers crossed that it stays like this!

Besides that I repeated part of the small experiment outlined erarlier on, i.e.:
- headspace purge vs. no purge (control)
- headspace purge vs complete purge (bottle and headspace)
- headspace purge vs. very high fill (almost no headspace)

This time I wasn't able to perform any of the variants that involve capping on foam, simply because the beer did not foam up enough... guess there was less residual CO2 in solution than last time.
I will report back after completing these 3 side-by-sides in a few weeks.
 

tyrub42

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Hi, thanks for your reply!
I followed my by-now usual routine for bottling hoppy beers, i.e. purging the headspace. So the AA was something additional. I sampled the first bottles last weekend after 1 week of conditioning, and besides some hop burn (that hopefully will fade away), they tasted great. Color is also spot on for the moment, fingers crossed that it stays like this!

Besides that I repeated part of the small experiment outlined erarlier on, i.e.:
- headspace purge vs. no purge (control)
- headspace purge vs complete purge (bottle and headspace)
- headspace purge vs. very high fill (almost no headspace)

This time I wasn't able to perform any of the variants that involve capping on foam, simply because the beer did not foam up enough... guess there was less residual CO2 in solution than last time.
I will report back after completing these 3 side-by-sides in a few weeks.
Sounds great! I think you'll have great results and look forward to hearing about how the beer holds up!
 
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Sounds great! I think you'll have great results and look forward to hearing about how the beer holds up!
By the way, the AA did not have any noticeable effect on beer pH, or if it had one, it must have been very minimal.
I added the AA together with the dry hops, 4 days prior to bottling (here's another step where I differed from your schedule and I forgot to mention).
I measured pH before that addition, and afterwards right before bottling. pH actually increased a little (it is known that massive dry hop charges tend to increase pH). So at the end I even added some lactic acid to the bottling bucket to decrease final pH a bit more.

So I think AA has very little impact on pH at such concentrations, and this seems to be consistent with what I read about it (i.e of it being a very weak acid).
 
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As posted a few weeks back, I want to share this observation on a bottle conditioned NEIPA I bottled on august 23rd (so this beer is now almost 2 months post bottling date). During this time, these two bottles were stored half on purpuse warmish, i.e. ca. 68-70 °F in my late-summer basement.

First of all, the beer came out great. Although I did have some positive experiences with bottle conditioning WC-style IPAs already, this was my first attempt at a NEIPA and of course I feared like everyone that the beer would turn into an ugly brown oxidised mess in a matter of weeks. But that luckily did not happen.

I am really not the best when it comes to taking instagram-level beer porn photos, so for those among you who think this beer looks oxidised: I swear it is still a beautiful, light orange color.
I tried my best using artificial light, because the sun was not shining today and this does not help ;-).

Now the interesting observation: This is the comparison between the control, non-purged variant on the left, and my usual headspace-purged variant on the right. This time there is absolutely no color difference between the two, and they also smell and taste exactly the same to me. Which is amazing, as given previous results from these small experiments, I would expect the starkest of differerences in such an extremely O2-sensitive style.
As mentioned a few posts back, this time I gave ascorbic acid a shot after being inspired by posts from @tyrub42. I added it at dry hopping time, approx. 4 days prior to bottling.
For me there is only one explanation here: the ascorbic acid did an amazing job.

For this brew I did a split batch comparing two different yeasts. Last week I also did a side-by-side comparison between the last bottles I filled on each batch (those would equate to your "taster" bottles, @tyrub42 ), and bottles that were filled "normally", approx. in the middle of each batch. Also here, there was not a difference to me.

Based on these observations, I am inclined to believe that active yeast combined with ascorbic acid are two really powerful ingredients which help to mitigate oxidation in NEIPA and other hoppy beers.

In any case, i won't shy away from bottling this style again in the future.

Many thanks @tyrub42 for bringing this up!
 
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tyrub42

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View attachment 702182View attachment 702183

As posted a few weeks back, I want to share this observation on a bottle conditioned NEIPA I bottled on august 23rd (so this beer is now almost 2 months post bottling date). During this time, these two bottles were stored half on purpuse warmish, i.e. ca. 68-70 °F in my late-summer basement.

First of all, the beer came out great. Although I did have some positive experiences with bottle conditioning WC-style IPAs already, this was my first attempt at a NEIPA and of course I feared like everyone that the beer would turn into an ugly brown oxidised mess in a matter of weeks. But that luckily did not happen.

I am really not the best when it comes to taking instagram-level beer porn photos, so for those among you who think this beer looks oxidised: I swear it is still a beautiful, light orange color.
I tried my best using artificial light, because the sun was not shining today and this does not help ;-).

Now the interesting observation: This is the comparison between the control, non-purged variant on the left, and my usual headspace-purged variant on the right. This time there is absolutely no color difference between the two, and they also smell and taste exactly the same to me. Which is amazing, as given previous results from these small experiments, I would expect the starkest of differerences in such an extremely O2-sensitive style.
As mentioned a few posts back, this time I gave ascorbic acid a shot after being inspired by posts from @tyrub42. I added it at dry hopping time, approx. 4 days prior to bottling.
For me there is only one explanation here: the ascorbic acid did an amazing job.

For this brew I did a split batch comparing two different yeasts. Last week I also did a side-by-side comparison between the last bottles I filled on each batch (those would equate to your "taster" bottles, @tyrub42 ), and bottles that were filled "normally", approx. in the middle of each batch. Also here, there was not a difference to me.

Based on these observations, I am inclined to believe that active yeast combined with ascorbic acid are two really powerful ingredients which help to mitigate oxidation in NEIPA and other hoppy beers.

In any case, i won't shy away from bottling this style again in the future.

Many thanks @tyrub42 for bringing this up!
Wow glad it worked so well 🍻🍻🍻
 

Brooothru

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As mentioned a few posts back, this time I gave ascorbic acid a shot.


For me there is only one explanation here: the ascorbic acid did an amazing job.

What was your methodology and quantity of ascorbic acid? Since there haven't been any competitions to enter this year I haven't bottled lately, but would like to try duplicating your process. I've been using 'trifecta' in both mash and late boil as well as closed transfers from fermenter to purged kegs which has practically eliminated O2 in all of my kegged beers.

It would be great to find an easy and effective way to further mitigate O2 when bottling. I used to always bottle 'some' of each batch for portability, but getting out a counter-pressure filler was a pain for just a six pack or two. So I bought a Blichmann Beer Gun. It's convenient but doesn't do much to prevent O2 incursion and thus oxidation. I'd like to be able to bottle just a few and have them stay 'fresh' for more than a week or two.

Brooo Brother
 
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What was your methodology and quantity of ascorbic acid? Since there haven't been any competitions to enter this year I haven't bottled lately, but would like to try duplicating your process. I've been using 'trifecta' in both mash and late boil as well as closed transfers from fermenter to purged kegs which has practically eliminated O2 in all of my kegged beers.

It would be great to find an easy and effective way to further mitigate O2 when bottling. I used to always bottle 'some' of each batch for portability, but getting out a counter-pressure filler was a pain for just a six pack or two. So I bought a Blichmann Beer Gun. It's convenient but doesn't do much to prevent O2 incursion and thus oxidation. I'd like to be able to bottle just a few and have them stay 'fresh' for more than a week or two.

Brooo Brother
I followed the process and dosage @tyrub42 detailed in his post #194.
Roughly 1 gram per gallon. It is way more than the package recommended for e.g. apple juice, etc.
Maybe it is possible to scale the dose down a bit and it would still be effective?

The only differences being that I added it already at dry hopping time. And I used only ascorbic acid, so I skipped the SMB/KMB addition.

I should add that, of course, the aroma potency decreased over this time stored at sub-optimal temperatures...there are no miracles. I think it lost a bit of its tropical fruit qualities and is now more citrus-forward, in a way. But so far it did not show any signs of evident oxidation like darkening, candy-like sweetness and so on. It is still crisp, flavorful and enjoyable.
 
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Brooothru

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I followed the process and dosage @tyrub42 detailed in his post #194.
Roughly 1 gram per gallon. It is way more than the package recommended for e.g. apple juice, etc.
Maybe it is possible to scale the dose down a bit and it would still be effective?

The only differences being that I added it already at dry hopping time. And I used only ascorbic acid, so I skipped the SMB/KMB addition.
So did you also do ascorbic/SMB/Brew Tan additions in mash/boil or just the ascorbic during dry hopping? Also curious if you detected any alteration of the beer's taste.

One gram ascorbic per gallon does seem a bit high. I add a bit more than 3 grams total of trifecta split between mash and boil, with the ascorbic component about 1.3 grams total for an 8 gal. boil/5 gal. batch. I gather that you're adding the ascorbic a week or so ahead of packaging and that the oxygen scavenging carries over with the bottling. Is this correct? TIA.

Brooo Brother
 
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Taket_al_Tauro

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So did you also do ascorbic/SMB/Brew Tan additions in mash/boil or just the ascorbic during dry hopping? Also curious if you detected any alteration of the beer's taste.

One gram ascorbic per gallon does seem a bit high. I add a bit more than 3 grams total of trifecta split between mash and boil, with the ascorbic component about 1.3 grams total for an 8 gal. boil/5 gal. batch. I gather that you're adding the ascorbic a week or so ahead of packaging and that the oxygen scavenging carries over with the bottling. Is this correct? TIA.

Brooo Brother
No additions during hot side...I just added cold side once at dry hopping time.
Yes I assume that the O2 scavenging effect carries over during bottling and afterwards.

No alterations in beer taste that I can detect. Also judges at a comp did not detect any weird notes so I guess I'm fine here.
 

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Thank you all for good and interesting posts! One question, I see that you talk about purge and no purge, but do you flip the bottle upside down after capping it? I used to do that until some kind soul showed me a video about a guy doing an experiment and it proved to have a great deal of impact. I just bottled my brew (no purge, but no shaking and only about 1 cm headspace with oxygen-absorbing caps) and damn, it's a heaven and earth in difference. It's only been a week, but the IPA tastes all hoppy and have the nice hazy orange color. While back when I shook the bottles, they became brown quite quickly and had this awful oxidized taste to it.
 
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Taket_al_Tauro

Taket_al_Tauro

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Thank you all for good and interesting posts! One question, I see that you talk about purge and no purge, but do you flip the bottle upside down after capping it? I used to do that until some kind soul showed me a video about a guy doing an experiment and it proved to have a great deal of impact. I just bottled my brew (no purge, but no shaking and only about 1 cm headspace with oxygen-absorbing caps) and damn, it's a heaven and earth in difference. It's only been a week, but the IPA tastes all hoppy and have the nice hazy orange color. While back when I shook the bottles, they became brown quite quickly and had this awful oxidized taste to it.
No turning or shaking here...why would you need to do this? Even if you prime by putting sugar in each bottle, it will dissolve and the yeast would get to it also without flipping/shaking.
 

BrewZer

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I just bottled my brew (no purge, but no shaking and only about 1 cm headspace with oxygen-absorbing caps) and damn, it's a heaven and earth in difference. It's only been a week, but the IPA tastes all hoppy and have the nice hazy orange color. While back when I shook the bottles, they became brown quite quickly and had this awful oxidized taste to it.
No turning or shaking here...why would you need to do this? Even if you prime by putting sugar in each bottle, it will dissolve and the yeast would get to it also without flipping/shaking.
The oxygen-absorbing liners have to be wet to work. Assuming you don't boil them or dunk them in a no-rinse sanitizer (which would activate them just before you capped your bottles), you need to get some beer up onto them to get them wet.
 
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Taket_al_Tauro

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The oxygen-absorbing liners have to be wet to work. Assuming you don't boil them or dunk them in a no-rinse sanitizer (which would activate them just before you capped your bottles), you need to get some beer up onto them to get them wet.
Ah OK, did not know this. Thanks for the info. I have no experience with caps since I only use swing-top bottles.
 
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