Conditioning in kegs prior to pressurizing or bottling?

[luckybeagle]

Is there anything wrong with this method for bottling beer?

1. Ferment to FG + a few days
2. Rack to a keg, purge with Co2 (but don't carbonate it) and bulk condition at 50F for anywhere from 2-8+ weeks
3. Pressure transfer from the keg to a bottling bucket, add priming sugar, and bottle it

I realize this is essentially treating a keg as a secondary, but it seems lower risk than going from fermenter to fermenter since I have the ability to Co2 purge it.

I'm asking because most of my beers move from the conditioning chamber to my kegerator, but I do occasionally want to bottle some of my beers that benefit from long bottle conditioning periods (strong belgians, doppelbocks, barleywines), I don't care much for using a counterpressure filler, and have multiple kegs but only 2 fermenters.

Can I do this? Any negatives? Will there be enough O2 left in the beer for the yeast to chew up the priming sugar and carbonate it?

Mainly I want to keep my fermenters moving as I like to brew regularly, and don't want to tie one up for a month or longer at a time, but also don't want to package too early and see the value in bulk conditioning.

Thoughts on this method?

 

[IslandLizard]

2. Rack to a keg, purge with Co2 (but don't carbonate it) and bulk condition at 50F for anywhere from 2-8+ weeks

I'd transfer to a CO2 pre-purged keg, to limit oxidation.
That keg will become basically your secondary, stored with a enough CO2 head pressure to keep it sealed for bulk conditioning.

You're going to get some sediment in that "secondary" keg, so before bottling, best to transfer it (jump liquid to liquid post) to another pre-purged "bottling" keg, leaving the trub behind in the secondary.

Add priming sugar (syringe), mix, then bottle directly from your "bottling keg."

 

[Toxxyc]

I used to do it a lot. Transfer to a purged keg, pressurize just enough so the lid seals, and store. 2 months later I pressure transfer to a fresh keg, making sure to leave out the sediment, carbonate and serve. Perfectly lagered beer.

 

[mac_1103]

Will there be enough O2 left in the beer for the yeast to chew up the priming sugar and carbonate it?

Yeast don't really need O2 to carbonate beer, and if you did transfer to a bottling bucket you would introduce plenty of O2 anyway. I would do what the reptile said.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Don't transfer to a bottling bucket. Bottle straight from the keg.

 

[luckybeagle]

Don't transfer to a bottling bucket. Bottle straight from the keg.

Hmm, my initial reaction was "what about rousing the sediment when stirring in the priming sugar solution?!" But then I remembered 90% of it will be left behind in the fermenter. The rest can ultimately just compact on the bottom of each bottle or, as IslandLizard said, simply jump it to another sanitized and purged keg before bottling.

I think the only real challenge is knowing exactly how much beer is in the keg, if it's not totally full, in order to properly calculate the priming sugar for the volumes I'm after. Maybe I'll just establish some base weights with water and keep a chart in my brewery. That should get me pretty close, I'd think. Or, like IslandLizard also suggested, just syringing priming solution into each bottle directly.

I could also use the out post of the keg and hook up a bottle filler wand to it somehow, rather than using an auto siphon--and get the siphon started by hitting it with a little pressure to fill the line before disconnecting the gas and cracking the lid.

I like the sound of all of that.

 

[mac_1103]

Maybe I'll just establish some base weights with water and keep a chart in my brewery. That should get me pretty close, I'd think.

You can get even closer by using the final gravity of the beer.

I could also use the out post of the keg and hook up a bottle filler wand to it somehow, rather than using an auto siphon--and get the siphon started by hitting it with a little pressure to fill the line before disconnecting the gas and cracking the lid.

Just use a PSI or two to push the beer from the keg to the bottles. Don't crack the lid and let oxygen in.

 

[IslandLizard]

Or, like IslandLizard also suggested, just syringing priming solution into each bottle directly.

Although one could, I was thinking of syringing into the keg. Far less work and more uniform.

 

[IslandLizard]

You're going to get some sediment in that "secondary" keg, so before bottling, best to transfer it (jump liquid to liquid post) to another pre-purged "bottling" keg, leaving the trub behind in the secondary.

Just in case you wonder how to avoid/prevent transferring the trub from the bottom of the "secondary" keg when jumping the beer to the "bottling" keg, you could use a floating diptube.

I've been successful so far with just using the regular long diptube that's already in the keg. Just blow the trubby beer from the bottom out until it flows clear. Then connect it to (the liquid post) of the receiving keg. The only reason that seems to work fine is that the trub is compacted somewhat, and the diptube just ends up sitting in a little well in the trub once it runs clear. Just don't move or bump the keg.

Or if you have a somewhat shortened (cut down) long dip tube on hand that remains above the trub layer use that, although it's hard to predict how deep the trub actually is.

Important detail:
Before you connect the jumper line QD to the receiving keg, make sure the pressure in that receiving keg has been released. You probably know why...

 

[OleBrewing]

a vessel with co2 would be best for a secondary if you can not control headspace issues or using buckets.

might be tough to bottle condition heavy beers sitting at 50 degrees as the yeast may go dormant and may not wake up to eat any priming sugar. I don't have a lot of experience with bottle conditioning heavy brews with long conditioning times at lower temps but some have had troubles and may need to use conditioning yeast.

just bottle as you normally would. don't sneeze into the bottling bucket and it will be fine.

 

[hotbeer]

The beer is conditioning itself no matter where it's at once fermentation is over.

So if you went straight to the priming pot and bottled it, it'd still be about the same after n amount of days at the same temp. Though there will be some difference while the new priming sugar begins another ferment.

The only downside to earlier bottling is more sediment in the bottles if that hasn't had time to fall out of suspension prior to bottling. And more sediment might make it more difficult to pour as much clean beer into the glass.

 

[Dland]

I know the OP did not ask about spunding, but of one is going to bother transferring to a keg, one might as well carbonate beer in a free, easy and low O2 manner.

Just rack from primary into keg when there is still a little fermentation going on, seal keg lid with a blast of CO2, and kegs will carbonate as the beer is finishing and conditioning. There is no down side, except one has to pay attention to timing of rack down.

 

[IslandLizard]

There is no down side, except one has to pay attention to timing of rack down.

Once carbonated, the bottles will need to be filled under counter pressure. That can be simply accomplished with a stopper around the bottling wand) to keep the beer carbonated and prevent her from foaming out.

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks all, I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed responses.

With beers 1.065 and above, especially those that have gone into "secondary" kegs before receiving priming sugar for bottling, I plan to do a small yeast repitch of a (non-diastatic) yeast. I've had higher gravity beers fail to carbonate on me with and without extended conditioning, and see how 3-4 weeks at 35-50F could create this problem.

I've never tried spunding on beers to be bottled. I have done it on beers that will be ultimately put on tap, and with good results, but for the beers that end up in the bottle I'll probably continue to rely on good old priming sugar and time. My Counter Pressure Bottle Filler is my nemesis and sits for about 364 days out of the year in my miscellaneous gear bin. lol

The beer is conditioning itself no matter where it's at once fermentation is over.

So if you went straight to the priming pot and bottled it, it'd still be about the same after n amount of days at the same temp. Though there will be some difference while the new priming sugar begins another ferment.

I really want to believe this as it would simplify life tremendously, but I am of the opinion that bulk conditioning, even in secondary and off the yeast, gets flavors to meld better and more quickly vs doing so in a 12 oz bottle. Moving it off the yeast and into a keg was my solution to safely condition it at a controlled temperature in bulk while also freeing up my fermenter.

I admittedly have never tried a side-by-side of one batch packaged at different stages of conditioning, so I'm wondering if this is just old school homebrewing dogma? If it's been debunked, I'd love to just ferment, reduce temp for a few days to help the yeast flocc out a little more, and then proceed with bottling. Any thoughts?

 

[JAReeves]

If you are ok with the first pint or two being nutritious, yet laxative-esque, you don't have to move off the priming keg into another one. If you have a friend or relative who is always scamming your beer or otherwise being irritating, you can also tell them it's a hazy and have an extra roll handy in the loo.

 

[sibelman]

first pint or two

Or the first bit could be discarded... either way, no need for an extra transfer.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Cold crash the keg if you can, this will drop most all the larger particulates to the bottom. If you want to further clarify, add some gelatin after it is cold crashed, wait a day or two. Without disturbing the keg draw off two or three pints to get rid of everything that fell to the bottom. Then add your priming sugar shake or roll around and bottle. Make sure you immediately purge the keg several times with co2 any time you open it, i.e. adding gelatin or priming sugar. Also make sure you release any pressure along the way so the beer does start getting carbonated in the keg before you bottle.

 

[sibelman]

Seems like, if there's a standard dip tube, the trub in the keg-as-secondary would best be discarded before injecting priming (and ascorbic acid) solution. Then, rock and roll to distribute the injected stuff, then promptly bottle.

With a floating dip tube, I think the secondary trub can only be excluded by transfer to a third vessel, presumably before priming but after cold-crashing.

Does that make sense?

 

[Broken Crow]

You're getting some good advice and options, but it seems to keep coming around to this;

while also freeing up my fermenter.

...Why not just get more fermenters? Fermonsters are cheap and adaptable and Fermzilla's cost a bit more but are highly adaptable and pressure capable. I started kegging myself not for having it on tap, but to force carb and bottle with a beergun (though I wish I'd got the Tapcooler, but that's just me).

 

[sibelman]

...Why not just get more fermenters?

This could be a great approach for OP and others. My fermentation chamber only has room for my Flex+ and two cornies. I too need to free up my fermenter.

 

[luckybeagle]

You're getting some good advice and options, but it seems to keep coming around to this;

...Why not just get more fermenters? Fermonsters are cheap and adaptable and Fermzilla's cost a bit more but are highly adaptable and pressure capable. I started kegging myself not for having it on tap, but to force carb and bottle with a beergun (though I wish I'd got the Tapcooler, but that's just me).

Yeah, it is definitely an option. I just threw out two scratched Fermzillas last fall and bought the stainless bucket buddies after a few back-to-back infections in each of them. I loved them before they became compromised, but now I think any future fermenter I buy will also match these. I must be too careless (judicious?) to use plastic when it comes to cleaning.

Pump, ferm wrap, fermenter, chilling coil, hoses, DIY insulative wrap (yoga mat), inkbird controller, outlet, rubber hose wrap... ~$300. I mean, it's not that much money to solve a persistent problem, all things considered. I guess another solution to it is to just slow down on the production and let beers finish to the point of racking to a keg, even if it causes me to not brew for an extra week. Said keg can either act as a future bottling vessel or go on tap. I have a tendency to overcomplicate things--maybe the simplest solution is to just slow down.

 

[McMullan]

You could scale down and ferment in kegs.

 

[sibelman]

No

the opinion that bulk conditioning, even in secondary and off the yeast, gets flavors to meld better and more quickly vs doing so in a 12 oz bottle.

I'm quite curious about this question. Is there any data out there?

 

[BongoYodeler]

Circling back to this thread because I was kicking around an idea. I am thinking of picking up a 3 gallon keg to be used for fermenting smaller test batches in. So maybe ferment 2 1/2 gallons in the keg, yielding ~2 gallons of packaged beer. I am also thinking of a way to bottle directly from that keg. My initial thoughts are to use a floating dip tube in the keg so as to not get excessive trub into the bottles. On bottling day hook up a bottle filler with tubing going to the liquid out QD on the keg. Apply a small amount of CO2 to the keg, maybe 1 or 2psi. Have the bottles already pre-dosed with sugar, and fill and cap each one as I go. At this point in time I'd rather not mess around with fermenting this under pressure or transferring pressurized beer.

Any thoughts on this process?

*This would be used for non dry hopped beers, specifically thinking of testing this out on a Dunkelweizen.

 

[sibelman]

use a floating dip tube in the keg so as to not get excessive trub into the bottles.

This is sensible but maybe an excess of caution - the first few ounces could get dumped instead. Also, I have no experience with floating dip tubes in short kegs, though it's probably fine.

 

[BongoYodeler]

This is sensible but maybe an excess of caution - the first few ounces could get dumped instead. Also, I have no experience with floating dip tubes in short kegs, though it's probably fine.

Thanks for your reply @sibelman
I don’t have any experience with them either, I currently have only 5 gallon kegs. This is just something I’m mulling over. Seems to me the floating dip tube would work with a shortened beer line, but I can always dump the initial trub like you mentioned.

Any thoughts on bottling from the keg with a spring loaded bottle filler using a small amount of CO2 to push it?

 

[sibelman]

bottling from the keg with a spring loaded bottle filler using a small amount of CO2 to push it

I just did this with a strong abbey ale, and it worked well. (previous effort with a partly carbed barley wine was a mess because of the foaming. I have no counter pressure filler.)

Instead of individually priming bottles, I injected priming solution into the keg (with a 300ml syringe) and then rolled/shook to distribute. In a week or two I'll know something about how that worked.

I put the keg on a table higher than the bottling surface to get a bit of help from gravity - fall CO2 pressure needed.

It was oddly comforting to bottle a batch after over five years of kegging - but I don't plan to make it a regular thing.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Thanks. It’s good to hear experiences from someone who’s actually tried this.