Lambic Discussion Thread

[Michigan1]

If you're talking about lambic v. AWA, I think that's a question a lot of American brewers are currently trying to figure out.

After your post, I'm not quite sure what I'm talking about anymore...

 

[stupac2]

Total guess here, but Brettanomyces has very good oxygen scavenging properties, so it gobbles up any oxygen before that oxygen can stale the beer. I know that some breweries (New Belgium I believe) even did some experiments where they added very small amounts of brett to try to get the oxygen scavenging but at such a low concentration that you wouldn't get any off flavors. Needless to say, it didn't work.

This is my belief as well. After some amount of time lambics get oxidized, but it takes a while. Brett sends lie the main difference with many other beers, though it's not the only one for sure.

 

[ShawDeuce221]

I think this is a little bit off according to my understanding. I believe that the aged hops supposedly help with the initial "wild" innoculation, in that they prevent many of the undesirable bacteria floating around in the air to take over. I do not think that the anti-microbial properties of hops influence the ability of lambic to age (though I too may be wrong on this).

You are 100% correct on this, I just assumed that it would help with the preservation of the beer as well. I think the brett and bacterias help a lot more but I am not the one to give that description.

 

[eyesonsaison]

After your post, I'm not quite sure what I'm talking about anymore...

Sorry, I tried to keep it simple while still giving your question some actual thought. Happy to clarify anything if you're interested.

 

[stupac2]

After your post, I'm not quite sure what I'm talking about anymore...

Well, if you DO mean AWA vs Lambic, I think the answer is basically just "spontaneous fermentation". Why is an interesting question, and if I were to guess it would basically be biodiversity. I don't know a ton about this, but I do know that ecosystems (and a bottle of wild beer is absolutely an ecosystem) with more biodiversity are better able to handle shocks of various kinds. It wouldn't surprise my at all if it turns out that wild beer from cultures just doesn't have the diversity needed to robustly survive the various changes the beer goes through as it ages. Lambic, because it's extremely diverse (hundreds if not thousands of species and varieties) handles it better.

This also explains why Beat holds up much better than many other RR sours, for instance.

 

[quirkzoo1]

Lambic, because it's extremely diverse (hundreds if not thousands of species and varieties) handles it better.

This also explains why Beat holds up much better than many other RR sours, for instance.

Not 100% sure on this, but I am pretty sure that it was from Chad Yakobson on the Brewing Network Sunday Session podcast. Chad did some studies (or perhaps read of some studies) that confirmed that after initial inoculation there were several hundred different strains of yeast and bacteria in a spontaneously fermented lambic. However after a couple of days that number had dropped significantly (down to single digits perhaps?).

So all that is to say that while spontaneously fermented beer does have more biodiversity initially, when we are talking about it "holding up" better, that biodiversity is greatly reduced. I am sure that the initial flourishing of organisms does play a role but we should be cautious not to assume that such biodiversity continues to be present in the beer.

 

[ShawDeuce221]

Well, if you DO mean AWA vs Lambic, I think the answer is basically just "spontaneous fermentation". Why is an interesting question, and if I were to guess it would basically be biodiversity. I don't know a ton about this, but I do know that ecosystems (and a bottle of wild beer is absolutely an ecosystem) with more biodiversity are better able to handle shocks of various kinds. It wouldn't surprise my at all if it turns out that wild beer from cultures just doesn't have the diversity needed to robustly survive the various changes the beer goes through as it ages. Lambic, because it's extremely diverse (hundreds if not thousands of species and varieties) handles it better.

This also explains why Beat holds up much better than many other RR sours, for instance.

Does RR blend any of their spontaneous beer (beat) into any of the AWAs? I thought I read somewhere that they did blend it into some of them but could be wrong.

 

[quirkzoo1]

Does RR blend any of their spontaneous beer (beat) into any of the AWAs? I thought I read somewhere that they did blend it into some of them but could be wrong.

FFAC Batch #1 was Beat based and T25 had some Sonambic (the "lambic" that gets blended to make Beat) in it, but I don't think they put it in any of their "regular" beers (Supplication, Consecration...)

 

[stupac2]

Not 100% sure on this, but I am pretty sure that it was from Chad Yakobson on the Brewing Network Sunday Session podcast. Chad did some studies (or perhaps read of some studies) that confirmed that after initial inoculation there were several hundred different strains of yeast and bacteria in a spontaneously fermented lambic. However after a couple of days that number had dropped significantly (down to single digits perhaps?).

So all that is to say that while spontaneously fermented beer does have more biodiversity initially, when we are talking about it "holding up" better, that biodiversity is greatly reduced. I am sure that the initial flourishing of organisms does play a role but we should be cautious not to assume that such biodiversity continues to be present in the beer.

Hmm, I've definitely read elsewhere that the biodiversity lasts throughout. I wonder if Chad's system of measurement just wasn't that sensitive, it's possible that the other critters are there, but just in small numbers, and that can really matter. Regardless, even if that's totally correct (and I don't really think it will be, since it contradicts many other things I've read) it'll still be more diverse than AWAs.

 

[stupac2]

Does RR blend any of their spontaneous beer (beat) into any of the AWAs? I thought I read somewhere that they did blend it into some of them but could be wrong.

You probably read that from me in the AWA thread. Supposedly Temptation gets a bit of Sonambic in it somehow, I heard it was blended in, someone else said it spent some time in empty Sonambic barrels before bottling. I have no idea what actually happens, but there's probably something going on there.

 

[xscottypx]

Come at me bro.

thats all you got?

 

[Trady]

thats all you got?

In the mail today, yes

 

[ShawDeuce221]

Not 100% sure on this, but I am pretty sure that it was from Chad Yakobson on the Brewing Network Sunday Session podcast. Chad did some studies (or perhaps read of some studies) that confirmed that after initial inoculation there were several hundred different strains of yeast and bacteria in a spontaneously fermented lambic. However after a couple of days that number had dropped significantly (down to single digits perhaps?).

So all that is to say that while spontaneously fermented beer does have more biodiversity initially, when we are talking about it "holding up" better, that biodiversity is greatly reduced. I am sure that the initial flourishing of organisms does play a role but we should be cautious not to assume that such biodiversity continues to be present in the beer.

I remember this info as well, but somewhat differently. I'm going to hold off on commenting until I listen to it on my ride home today and report back. That specific podcast should be transcribed and documented somewhere...so much amazing information. Along with all of Chad's other research and talks (youtube them, can't link them from work )

 

[quirkzoo1]

I remember this info as well, but somewhat differently. I'm going to hold off on commenting until I listen to it on my ride home today and report back. That specific podcast should be transcribed and documented somewhere...so much amazing information. Along with all of Chad's other research and talks (youtube them, can't link them from work )

Peer review post FTW!!!

Would be interested to know what youtube talks you have found helpful, that Brewing Network interview is a goldmine, just listened to it again a couple of weeks ago now that I have actually brewed my own sour beer, very helpful.

 

[ShawDeuce221]

Peer review post FTW!!!

Would be interested to know what youtube talks you have found helpful, that Brewing Network interview is a goldmine, just listened to it again a couple of weeks ago now that I have actually brewed my own sour beer, very helpful.

This is the best I can do from work. They are long, but packed full of great info.

 

[quirkzoo1]

This is the best I can do from work. They are long, but packed full of great info.

Cool, I saw those presentations up, but I have seen some of his other presentations that were a bit too technical for me (more about plating substances and lab methods than about brewing) so I figured I would see which one you had watched that would actually be helpful at the homebrew scale. Will check these out.

 

[PeelBacks]

Does RR blend any of their spontaneous beer (beat) into any of the AWAs? I thought I read somewhere that they did blend it into some of them but could be wrong.

FFAC Batch #1 was Beat based and T25 had some Sonambic (the "lambic" that gets blended to make Beat) in it, but I don't think they put it in any of their "regular" beers (Supplication, Consecration...)

I remember reading this years FFaC was 80% Temptation and 20% Sonambic.

 

[SeaWatchman]

In the mail today, yes

Please tell me you didn't buy the Cantillon fall connoisseur's box?

 

[ShawDeuce221]

Peer review post FTW!!!

Would be interested to know what youtube talks you have found helpful, that Brewing Network interview is a goldmine, just listened to it again a couple of weeks ago now that I have actually brewed my own sour beer, very helpful.

Paraphrasing the BN bit about what I think quirkzoo and I are talking about: Chad was asked from a listener how many strains of brett are in real (open fermentation) Belgian geueze/lambic. He talks about some reports and studies that had been done by a student at UC Davis on how he has looked at spontaneous fermentations from Allagash, Vinnie (Russian River), and some Belgian lambic but doesn't go into detail about those reports. Then talks about studies that had been done in the 70's and 80's on lambic and finding upwards of 100 different strains of brett in them. But, when Chad had looked at authentic lambic he had only found one strain of brett even though all of the breweries (Cantillon, 3F, Girardin, etc.) have different characteristics that define their brewery.

 

[drgarage1]

Paraphrasing the BN bit about what I think quirkzoo and I are talking about: Chad was asked from a listener how many strains of brett are in real (open fermentation) Belgian geueze/lambic. He talks about some reports and studies that had been done by a student at UC Davis on how he has looked at spontaneous fermentations from Allagash, Vinnie (Russian River), and some Belgian lambic but doesn't go into detail about those reports. Then talks about studies that had been done in the 70's and 80's on lambic and finding upwards of 100 different strains of brett in them. But, when Chad had looked at authentic lambic he had only found one strain of brett even though all of the breweries (Cantillon, 3F, Girardin, etc.) have different characteristics that define their brewery.

Strain or species? I'd be surprised by the former.

 

[ShawDeuce221]

Strain or species? I'd be surprised by the former.

He says strains, I'm not a microbiologist, just quoting what was said. With that, I listened to it again and wrote some things down...this is pretty close:

I haven't done the research, but I've read a bunch of research papers, a bunch being 3. There is a student up at UC Davis now who I think is taking the academic route. He just reported a lot of his research, he was looking at spontaneous beers that Allagash was doing, Vinnie was doing, and beers from Belgium. I'd be interested to see if he cultured strains. But in the early research in the late 70's early 80'sthey were suggesting upwards of 100 different brettanomyces strains in these beers. That's interesting to me because when I culture Cantillon, Drie Fonteinen, Girardin Gueuze I tend to fine one. So I chalk it up to a predominant strain that all those breweries have, they are all different and it's unique to their brewery and gives a characteristic that I associate with their beers as well. They all have a different strain that's outliving the rest, but I'm sure their must be quite a few in there with those complex of beers.

I see what you are saying (with a quick google search of the difference between strain and species) but can't comment on that.

 

[quirkzoo1]

I think the other thing to consider in this thread is that right now we are just talking about Brettanomyces strains. In all of these beers I am sure there are also a multitude of bacteria that are affecting what is going on.

 

[stupac2]

I would be seriously shocked if there were only one strain of Brett, that seems massively unlikely for a spontaneous beer. It seems more likely that his system of identification was flawed or incomplete (which is actually pretty normal, this isn't easy).

Regardless, as I said before, it depends a lot on what you mean by "present". There was just a study done that looked at microbes in seawater and found that there are TONS present in really, really tiny concentrations virtually all over the world. Do they have important effects on the microbiome on a macro scale? Probably not. But they almost certainly contribute to the resilience of the microbiome to change. That's what I'm getting at here, even if there's one dominant strain there's almost certainly far more strains, and the existence of those makes a big difference in how something can respond to adversity.

For instance, I think at this point everyone knows that monoculture farming is bad for the land and bad for the crops, it's just a bad idea. It makes things more susceptible to pests, depletes the soil, makes the plants less nutritious, on and on. It's just bad. Biodiversity is important, in pretty much every ecosystem.

So it's just a hypothesis about that being why lambic is more suitable for aging than AWA, but I think it's a pretty well founded one for how little information we have.

 

[Gene1]

I would be seriously shocked if there were only one strain of Brett, that seems massively unlikely for a spontaneous beer. It seems more likely that his system of identification was flawed or incomplete (which is actually pretty normal, this isn't easy).

If it were true, the most likely explanation is that one strain out-performed others in the race to metabolize sugars early on.

 

[stupac2]

If it were true, the most likely explanation is that one strain out-performed others in the race to metabolize sugars early on.

Yeah, that's what would happen, but the others wouldn't be gone they'd just be far fewer in number. Which is important to know, but I'm not sure it affects my conclusion a lot.

Also, depending on his methods it might actually not be possible to tell the difference between very similar strains that nonetheless produce different results. I didn't see anything in there about whether he did a culture and an eye test, some kind of PCR, or what. That matters a lot when knowing how seriously to take the conclusion.

 

[ASUBeer]

Got a nice little box of 3x Lou Pepe Framboise ('10 sticker)' 2x De Cam Lambiek Special, and 1 Cantillon baller flute glass.

This is called the mini belgium order (5bottles). A little more costly but it scratches the itch.

 

[Billy Brux]

Got a nice little box of 3x Lou Pepe Framboise ('10 sticker)' 2x De Cam Lambiek Special, and 1 Cantillon baller flute glass.

This is called the mini belgium order (5bottles). A little more costly but it scratches the itch.

Which vendor has LPF?

 

[ASUBeer]

Which vendor has LPF?

Belgium in a box does/did

 

[ASUBeer]

I'm having a 2012 Cantillon Kriek. I absolutely love Cantillon Kriek. One of my favorite lambics.

The 2012 had a pretty high level of carbonation. At 1 year you can see this beer is transitioning from sweet young Kriek to slightly more funky Kriek. Great funky fruit nose.

 

[ASUBeer]

Y'all weren't kidding about De Cam Lambiek Special. This beer is delicious. I wish I could flash forward 3 years to see what this beer will taste like cellared. I imagine it will be incredible.