Lallemand Windsor vs Lallemand London ESB?

[Miraculix]

Thanks!

Just two little comments, try Bry 97 but be prepared for a longer lag phase than usual. It's a really good us ale yeast imo.

The farmhouse yeast is not GMO if I remember correctly. I'm also not a big fan of GMO stuff and like to keep things simple but afaik, this one was just "bread the usual way".

I think m54 was available long before köln was on the market.

Ok, three comments it is.

 

[Protos]

You are right, that wasn't a genetic modification in sensu stricto, rather a "selective breeding". But, again, they produced a totally new yeast variety: a diastatic strain with no distatic properties. My objections are rather aesthetical. I just feel the Farmhouse is not the most proper style for testing the latest microbiological novelties. Perhaps, the proverbial Quadruple-Chilli-Marzipan-Sour-Stout would be a more appropriate application

 

[Miraculix]

You are right, that wasn't a genetic modification in sensu stricto, rather a "selective breeding". But, again, they produced a totally new yeast variety: a diastatic strain with no distatic properties. My objections are rather aesthetical. I just feel the Farmhouse is not the most proper style for testing the latest microbiological novelties. Perhaps, the proverbial Quadruple-Chilli-Marzipan-Sour-Stout would be a more appropriate application

Hahahaha, I understand. I bought myself a pack of that farmhouse yeast, just to see. I never had a dry saison yeast that imparted the flavour that I was looking for so my hope is that this one might be better taste-wise.

Btw. I added a comment about mj 54 above, but you were too fast with your reply to see it. Mj California lager was on the market way before the köln strain from lallemand, so I doubt it's the same yeast.

 

[Protos]

I think m54 was available long before köln was on the market.

Didn't know that.
They are definitely the same strain in my experience. On of the closest Lal/MJ matches, no further than Nottingham and M42. Same peary aroma, same prolonged lagphase, same good flocculation. M54 may have somewhat bolder aroma, but it's the same aroma as in Lal Köln. And for sure both are very far flavourwise from K-97 (which is noticeably more neutral and acidic).
I wonder, could it be then that Lallemand rolled out its German Ale strain first as an "OEM-version" for market testings and only then released it as the branded Lalbrew Köln? The yeast is a comparatively fickly one after all, success wasn't guaranteed.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Hey cheers Protos. I mostly agree.

I think Miraculix is right about M54 pre dating Kōln.

M10 is no longer on the market afaik.

M20 and Munich Classic seem different to me.

M44 is Bry-97, I'm pretty certain.

 

[Shenanigans]

I was about to say the same thing about the Farmhouse.
It's available in the EU and GMO yeasts are not allowed here.
I haven't used it yet but a recommendation as the best dry Saison yeast given to me from another brew forum was Fermentis BE-134.
I ordered a pack a few weeks ago but I still have a liquid Saison yeast so might take a while before I try it.

 

[Protos]

M10 is no longer on the market afaik.

It's reappeared on regional markets recently. See my thread on how I had it delivered from Russia. Hopefully, it soon reappears on the global market again.
I still have a vial of Glycerol-frozen slurry. It's a nice MJ version of London / S-33. The producer advertises it will work up to 30C. My vial waits for the summer to prove or disprove that bold statement.

M44 is Bry-97, I'm pretty certain.s

Haven't tried any. How do they relate to US-05? Same, better or worse?

 

[Miraculix]

Didn't know that.
They are definitely the same strain in my experience. On of the closest Lal/MJ matches, no further than Nottingham and M42. Same peary aroma, same prolonged lagphase, same good flocculation. M54 may have somewhat bolder aroma, but it's the same aroma as in Lal Köln. And for sure both are very far flavourwise from K-97 (which is noticeably more neutral and acidic).
I wonder, could it be then that Lallemand rolled out its German Ale strain first as an "OEM-version" for market testings and only then released it as the branded Lalbrew Köln? The yeast is a comparatively fickly one after all, success wasn't guaranteed.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation.

I also experienced "interesting" behaviour with m54, meaning fermentation slowed down after some time but never really stopped. Kind of like a stuck fermentation, but still continuing sloooooowly so I agree, that yeast can be tricky. But with a big enough pitch is a great room temperature yeast, even above 30c it made great beer.

Another possibility might be that both yeasts have the same "parents"? Don't know, just like Windsor, London, etc. Are very close.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

It's reappeared on regional markets recently. See my thread on how I had it delivered from Russia. Hopefully, it soon reappears on the global market again.
I still have a vial of Glycerol-frozen slurry. It's a nice MJ version of London / S-33. The producer advertises it will work up to 30C. My vial waits for the summer to prove or disprove that bold statement.


Haven't tried any. How do they relate to US-05? Same, better or worse?

I wouldn't use S-33 up to 30C.

M44 & Bry-97 I like. Different from US05. I think 05 expresses hops better, but I like what M44/97 do in terms of malt and mouth feel. I use them more than 05 now.

 

[Protos]

I wouldn't use S-33 up to 30C.

Neither me. But Mangrove Jacks states such a possibility on the packaging. Even 32C. Will see.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Neither me. But Mangrove Jacks states such a possibility on the packaging. Even 32C. Will see.

Suggests it's not S-33, to me. Unless MJ is being really perverse, or clueless.

 

[Protos]

Based solely on package specifications, I thought initially M10 could be a version of the heat-tolerant Mauribrew 514. However, fermentation behaviour, degree of attenuation and subsequent tasting convinced me it's a London/S-33 strain.
Those package descriptions could be quite misleading sometimes. For example, they advertise M10 as a perfect choice for a Pseudo Lager if fermented cool. I tried to, fermenting at 15C and then lagering for a month, and all what I got was a typical subdued London ale, not Lagery at all. It strongly reminds me of S-33 which is described by the producer as "Belgian" even though it has nothing common with the true Belgian yeasts. It looks not unike a conspiracy plot among producers and retailers to cover the true nature of the poor innocent EDME strain under all imaginable marketing disguises I wonder, why?

So, the claimed heat-tolerance could well turn out to be same advertising rubbish as its nonexistent Lager qualities.

Another solid argument for M10 and S-33 being the same (or very close) strain is the price. Both are the cheapest options among all commercially available dry yeasts.

 

[dmtaylor]

I think m54 was available long before köln was on the market.

Yeah, that’s because it’s probably really Fermentis K97. Koln came afterwards as Lallemand’s attempt at an equivalent to K97.

 

[dmtaylor]

Haven't tried any. How do they relate to US-05? Same, better or worse?

BRY-97 is very similar to US-05. BRY-97 takes longer to start but finishes fast and is more neutral / less fruity compared with US-05.

 

[Protos]

OK, then I better stick to US-05 in the rare cases I go American. Peachy whiff is what I love most in this yeast.

 

[Protos]

Yeah, that’s because it’s probably really Fermentis K97.

Lots of pear in Lal and MJ. None in K-97.
Noticeable acidity from K-97 (similar to S-04). None from Lal and MJ.

 

[Franktalk]

Yeah, that’s because it’s probably really Fermentis K97. Koln came afterwards as Lallemand’s attempt at an equivalent to K97.

Dave, I have to disagree with you here. I have brewed extensively with both K97 and Koln, (not side-by-side) and they don't seem similar in any way. K97 will begin fermentation quickly where Koln will lag because the pitch rates differ greatly. K97 is clean to the point of being cleaner than S189, thought the latter is most definitely a lager, and Koln is fruity with pear esters, and I also get lemon from it. Also, Koln does not have that bitterness that K97 has. To me, these two are miles from each other.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Dave, I have to disagree with you here. I have brewed extensively with both K97 and Koln, (not side-by-side) and they don't seem similar in any way. K97 will begin fermentation quickly where Koln will lag because the pitch rates differ greatly. K97 is clean to the point of being cleaner than S189, thought the latter is most definitely a lager, and Koln is fruity with pear esters, and I also get lemon from it. Also, Koln does not have that bitterness that K97 has. To me, these two are miles from each other.

I think Dave is saying that K97 and M54 are probably the same. Not K97 and Koln.

 

[Franktalk]

Okay, but Dave does have them on his chart as probably being the same.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Okay, but Dave does have them on his chart as probably being the same.

I think Dave is trying to match similar strains and the colour coding indicates the source of the matching criteria. Some are closer than others, basically.

 

[dmtaylor]

I am saying that if they are on the same row, they might not be exactly equivalent but are "close enough for most intents & purposes".

The color coding in purple should be pretty accurate. In yellow, it's an either-or situation. The orange is essentially meaningless and I might remove it. The red is based on a separate genomic test focusing on every/all "Chico" strain. These aren't all exactly the same, and have some key differences worth consideration.

 

[Franktalk]

I am saying that if they are on the same row, they might not be exactly equivalent but are "close enough for most intents & purposes".

The color coding in purple should be pretty accurate. In yellow, it's an either-or situation. The orange is essentially meaningless and I might remove it. The red is based on a separate genomic test focusing on every/all "Chico" strain. These aren't all exactly the same, and have some key differences worth consideration.

Oh, I see, Dave. Thanks! By the way, do you have duncan_disorderly on retainer?

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Oh, I see, Dave. Thanks! By the way, do you have duncan_disorderly on retainer?

Only when I'm sober. Which i currently am! So, here are my MJ thoughts...

M15 - probably Windsor
M42 - Nottingham
M44 - Bry-97
M36 - Blend, maybe Notty/Windsor. Or similar.

M29 - Belle Saison
M31 - Diastaticus, gives banana, so maybe a blend of WB-06 and something else
M41 - Diastaticus, so maybe a blend. Belle or BE-134 and Notty, maybe.
M47 - Non-diastaticus so not WB-06. Lalbrew Abbaye most likely.

M20 - Don't know despite using it several times. :Lalbrew Wit?
M21 - No idea, not used it.

M54 - Mauribrew Lager perhaps? Dunno.
M76 - MJ says it's pastorianus + cerevisiae, so a blend. Diamond & Notty, maybe, Lallemand promotes that blend.
M84 - MJ says it's cerevisiae, so not a lager strain. Not used this one.

M12 - Lalbrew Voss
M66 - No idea, possibly Lalbrew New England?