Lallemand Windsor vs Lallemand London ESB?

[Protos]

Gentlemen, after using extensively Fermentis and Mangrove Jack's dry yeast (I prefer the latter, to be honest, with US-05 being the only Fermentis yeast superior to MJack's) I want to try Lallemand now (which I haven't tried yet, besides Voss Kveik). So I'm choosing now which yeasts from their range I need to order.

Long story short: what's the principal difference between London ESB and Windsor yeast?

After all massive reading in yeast genetics threads, am I correct to assume Windsor is the same as S-33 (low-attenuating low fruit/neutral) while London ESB is something that Mangrove repacks and sells as M15 Empire Ale (low-attenuating highly fruity)? Or is it an oversimplification, and those English yeasts by Lallemand are something (although genetically close) totally different than Fermentis and MJack's offerings? Would it be wise to try them if I already have brewed several dozens beers each with S-33 and M15?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I can't answer your specific questions, but can say that out of the three brands I really like Lallemand, and if you're looking for an English style yeast try their Verdant IPA yeast. I haven't tried it yet, but it's supposed to be related to WY1318 which is a great English yeast and reviews look promising. Being a lover of a good English ale, I've been very underwhelmed by all English dry yeast offerings I've tried so far (including S04, London ESB and Empire Ale; I don't count Nottingham as English - it's one of my favourite 'clean' yeasts).

Gentlemen,

Lots of Ladies on here too! (and not-so-gentle men).

 

[DuncB]

I have used the Windsor once on a Spitfire ale clone, it started quick and then tailed off and seemed to restart again after a few weeks and went on and on, took ages to clear due to this prolonged activity. Most of it was kegged but the bottles, laid down at what I thought was final are now all bottle extinguishers. Taste was okay though, but I wouldn't reach for Windsor again from a personal view point, was sweet residual taste. ESB I was told from LHBS needs rousing sometimes as it drops out before finishing esp if temp fluctuates down.
Series of one though isn't something you should base your experience on.

 

[dmtaylor]

Windsor and London yeasts are nearly identical, both in flavor and in genomic makeup. The primary difference is their average attenuation. Windsor can’t eat as much sugar with average attenuation, in my experience, of about 61%, versus London attenuating at about 67% average. Both yeasts are very fast and tasty, completing fermentation within about 40 hours flat. Windsor *might* be just a little bit more fruity, and London more clean, but more experiments would be helpful to figure that out better.

I think London *might* be closer to S-33 than Windsor is. But I haven't used S-33 in ages so I'm not absolutely certain. I do believe M15 is repacked from one of the other 3.

Here’s a summation of my experience and research about these and many other yeasts. Cheers.

YEAST MASTER by David M Taylor Perma-Living

 

[Protos]

Thanks to you, all gentle/ungentle men for your notions (and also to ladies just for their presence on the board)!

dmtaylor, that's an exhaustive answer, many thanks. I long have your YEAST MASTER spreadsheet saved on my PC and I follow all updates. Very useful doc, great project. It's from your spreadsheet that I know that London ESB is genetically the same as S-33 and M15. As long as Windsor stands separately in the neighbouring row I assume it's a slightly more distant relative of the three, am I right?

So, I just ordered them, both London and Windsor. Will brew me some vintage Ron Pattinson's recipes with Crisp's heritage barleys. However genetically close the Danstar yeasts might be to Fermentis and MJ, I expect them to be different, just like I find M15 and S33 noticeably different flavourwise (one being more esthery and a bit more attenuative and another producing cleaner and fuller beer).

 

[dmtaylor]

As long as Windsor stands separately in the neighbouring row I assume it's a slightly more distant relative of the three, am I right?

I would say that among all 4 of these, they are all VERY close relatives, almost like sisters or first cousins, so close that it is difficult to determine which 2 might be identical (M15 *has* to be 100% equivalent to one of the others, but which one, I'm not exactly sure). Meanwhile, the only 2 that I *know* are NOT identical are Windsor and London, because why would Lallemand sell the same product in 2 different packages!?

So, I just ordered them, both London and Windsor. Will brew me some vintage Ron Pattinson's recipes with Crisp's heritage barleys. However genetically close the Danstar yeasts might be to Fermentis and MJ, I expect them to be different, just like I find M15 and S33 noticeably different flavourwise (one being more esthery and a bit more attenuative and another producing cleaner and fuller beer).

Hmm... if that's the case, M15 might not be S-33... hmm....

Glad to see you're using these for Ron Pattinson's discoveries of vintage recipes, that is an absolutely perfect application for any of these!

 

[Protos]

I have two classic English beers fermenting right now: 1889 Victorian Bitter on S33 and London Pride on M15.
As soon as my Lallemand order arrives, will add two batches on London and Windsor. Then I'll have the four beers ready at (more or less) the same time to make a comprehensive comparison

 

[R-B-Y]

I have two classic English beers fermenting right now: 1889 Victorian Bitter on S33 and London Pride on M15.
As soon as my Lallemand order arrives, will add two batches on London and Windsor. Then I'll have the four beers ready at (more or less) the same time to make a comprehensive comparison

How did this go? I’m looking to brew a stout and I’m really sold on the “dark fruit” that m15 advertises so I’m keen to see which ones are equivalent to that.

 

[Miraculix]

Imo Windsor and M15 empire ale are identical.

I really like London ESB for ipas, it's a good yeast, but treat it for what it is. Very British. Mash low and include simple sugars, then it will be a fine beer.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Imo Windsor and M15 empire ale are identical.

I really like London ESB for ipas, it's a good yeast, but treat it for what it is. Very British. Mash low and include simple sugars, then it will be a fine beer.

I've not used M15 but that seems to be quite a common opinion. I find London and Windsor different, Windsor more fruity. I've not done a side by side with Windsor and S-33 but they are very similar. So London is likely the most different of the three. Without being wildly different.

I'm not sure that M15 "*has* to be 100% equivalent to one of the others", as stated above, given the mystery around MJ's methods. It could well be, and likely is. Some of the MJ strains are simple repackages I believe, like M42 is likely straight Nottingham. But some of the others seem to be blends of things. My feeling is that M36 is a blend, for instance.

I have seen people say that Fermentis does not sell it's yeast to other brands. I don't know if this is true, but I haven't yet come across a MJ yeast that is obviously a Fermentis strain. Would be interesting to see compelling evidence to the contrary.

 

[Miraculix]

I've not used M15 but that seems to be quite a common opinion. I find London and Windsor different, Windsor more fruity. I've not done a side by side with Windsor and S-33 but they are very similar. So London is likely the most different of the three. Without being wildly different.

I'm not sure that M15 "*has* to be 100% equivalent to one of the others", as stated above, given the mystery around MJ's methods. It could well be, and likely is. Some of the MJ strains are simple repackages I believe, like M42 is likely straight Nottingham. But some of the others seem to be blends of things. My feeling is that M36 is a blend, for instance.

I have seen people say that Fermentis does not sell it's yeast to other brands. I don't know if this is true, but I haven't yet come across a MJ yeast that is obviously a Fermentis strain. Would be interesting to see compelling evidence to the contrary.

I agree, windsor is more fruity compared to London ESB. London Esb reached a higher attenuation in the beers i have brewed with it, compared to the windsor ones. I prefer London ESB taste wise. Both are poor floculators though, that is why I am not using them any more. For lower attenuative yeasts, there are better possibilities out there, for example Imperial yeast A 09 Pub, which is liquid but comes in a big enough package that it does not necessarily require a starter.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I agree, windsor is more fruity compared to London ESB. London Esb reached a higher attenuation in the beers i have brewed with it, compared to the windsor ones. I prefer London ESB taste wise. Both are poor floculators though, that is why I am not using them any more. For lower attenuative yeasts, there are better possibilities out there, for example Imperial yeast A 09 Pub, which is liquid but comes in a big enough package that it does not necessarily require a starter.

I tend to buy S-33 because in the UK I can get it for a bargain £1.40 ($1.85), as opposed to £3.45 ($4.57) for the Lallemand versions, and similar for M15, which seems over-priced, hence I haven't bothered with it.

I don't tend to use S-33 by itself, I have used it with Nottingham or M44. Which sorts out the flocc problem, but ups the attenuation too. Which may not be why you are using S-33 or Windsor. Bear in mind though that Windsor, London and Nottingham were all isolated from the same British multi-strain yeast, so they hung together before they were used for homebrewing.

 

[Steveruch]

Windsor and London yeasts are nearly identical, both in flavor and in genomic makeup. The primary difference is their average attenuation. Windsor can’t eat as much sugar with average attenuation, in my experience, of about 61%, versus London attenuating at about 67% average. Both yeasts are very fast and tasty, completing fermentation within about 40 hours flat. Windsor *might* be just a little bit more fruity, and London more clean, but more experiments would be helpful to figure that out better.

I think London *might* be closer to S-33 than Windsor is. But I haven't used S-33 in ages so I'm not absolutely certain. I do believe M15 is repacked from one of the other 3.

Here’s a summation of my experience and research about these and many other yeasts. Cheers.

YEAST MASTER by David M Taylor Perma-Living

Any idea where Muntons would fall in this list?
I've had good luck with it. The 6 gram size is perfect for smaller batches.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Any idea where Muntons would fall in this list?
I've had good luck with it. The 6 gram size is perfect for smaller batches.

Munton's standard yeast seems similar to London to me. Low attenuation and low flavour.
Munton's Gold is probably a form of Nottingham, I reckon.

 

[dmtaylor]

Any idea where Muntons would fall in this list?
I've had good luck with it. The 6 gram size is perfect for smaller batches.

It's hiding in the far right column of my table. It's almost identical to either Windsor or London. My current guess is Windsor. But I could be wrong.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

It's hiding in the far right column of my table. It's almost identical to either Windsor or London. My current guess is Windsor. But I could be wrong.

View attachment 752724

It's not Windsor Dave. Definitely not. Very similar to London.

 

[dmtaylor]

It's not Windsor Dave. Definitely not. Very similar to London.

I dunno... Munton's gave me the fruitiest beer I've made in recent history, and lowest attenuation ever at about 56%. Seems very consistent with Windsor, not so much with London, in MY experience. More experiments are needed.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I dunno... Munton's gave me the fruitiest beer I've made in recent history, and lowest attenuation ever at about 56%. Seems very consistent with Windsor, not so much with London, in MY experience. More experiments are needed.

Ok, no worries. I've used them quite a bit and I've not found that myself. Not done a split batch though.

 

[Protos]

How did this go? I’m looking to brew a stout and I’m really sold on the “dark fruit” that m15 advertises so I’m keen to see which ones are equivalent to that.

It came out excellently! Since that posting, I've tried all the Lalbrew range (excluding the West Coast, BRY, Wit and the exotic ones, like Philly and Farmhouse). I tried all their English yeasts in recipes from Ron Pattinson's blog and also from a surprisingly good recipe section on the Crisp Malt website. As I mostly brew small 5L/1.5G batches, a batch per week, my recipe rotation turns really fast. My experience totally confirms what dmtaylor's table says. Windsor definitely descends from the same strain as M15 Empire. And London from the same strain as S-33 and M10 Workhorse.
They aren't kidding when they advertise the dark fruit in M15. It's there, loads of it. I love it. Windsor is entirely interchangeable with M15. It produces same dark fruit esters. Not exactly in the same quantity, though. I feel that Windsor is a tiny bit duller than M15.

I'm not sure that M15 "*has* to be 100% equivalent to one of the others", as stated above, given the mystery around MJ's methods. It could well be, and likely is. Some of the MJ strains are simple repackages I believe, like M42 is likely straight Nottingham. But some of the others seem to be blends of things.

Exactly. This or, I believe, same yeasts prepared/processed/whatever by Lallemand in slightly different manner for their "OEM"-versions. Now, after exploring almost entire range of Lalbrew/Mangrove yeast counterparts I may say most MJ's yeasts are indeed easily recognizable versions of Lallemand's products. Each, however, has a slight but noticeable twist. MJ's versions are bolder and more characterful, in my experience. I prefer the MJ's versions, to tell the truth. For me, they are just better.

Of all the Lallemands I've tried, I loved Verdant the most. Didn't waste it on catty IPAs, no way. With it, I brewed almost full chronological range of Boddingtons (thanks Shut Up About Barklay Perkins). Heavenly beers. Heavenly. I just imagine what a treat it will be when/if MJ releases their improved version of Verdant.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Exactly. This or, I believe, same yeasts prepared/processed/whatever by Lallemand in slightly different manner for their "OEM"-versions. Now, after exploring almost entire range of Lalbrew/Mangrove yeast counterparts I may say most MJ's yeasts are indeed easily recognizable versions of Lallemand's products. Each, however, has a slight but noticeable twist. MJ's versions are bolder and more characterful, in my experience. I prefer the MJ's versions, to tell the truth. For me, they are just better.

Of all the Lallemands I've tried, I loved Verdant the most. Didn't waste it on catty IPAs, no way. With it, I brewed almost full chronological range of Boddingtons (thanks Shut Up About Barklay Perkins). Heavenly beers. Heavenly. I just imagine what a treat it will be when/if MJ releases their improved version of Verdant.

Ha. Boddingtons is my desert island beer, I drank it from late 70s into the mid 80s. I think Verdant beats any MJ yeast. What's this about a new improved version?!

The differences between Windsor, S-33, London and Muntons standard yeasts are small. I just find Windsor and S-33 a bit fruity and the other two less so. But that's across different beers, never done a side by side.

Windsor and London are definitely different strains. Windsor and S-33 are genetically almost identical. Muntons is very close to them. So these 3 likely originate from the same source I guess.

 

[Protos]

Windsor and S-33 are genetically almost identical

Genetically may be, flavourwise not so much. S-33 tastes and smells definitely closer to London and M10 than to M15/Windsor.

 

[Miraculix]

I am (was) also quite a fan of verdant, but to be honest, it is a bit too fruity for me. I brewed so many beers with it, might be that I am just a bit fed up with its quite unique and strong character... but I cannot stand it anymore

I don´t know, just too fruity for me atm.

 

[Protos]

Know that feel... I've had a long romance with M15. It's been The Yeast Of Choise for quite a long period. Then got ultimately fed up with the mighty sweet plumes and was avoiding it. Then returned to it, in moderation.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I just imagine what a treat it will be when/if MJ releases their improved version of Verdant.

Is this wishful thinking or do you know something?

 

[Protos]

No more than just dreams...
Given that almost every yeast of the Lalbrew range has a MJ counterpart (and those MJ versions are, in my experience, slightly better than the "originals") it would be nice if MJ released its own Verdant version, which could be even better than an already excellent Lalbrew Verdant.
I think the chances are quite high, as we've recently seen MJ hastening to jump onto the IPA fad train, releasing M66 right after the Lalbrew New England had been released (both are failure, in my opinion, but whatever). MJ would be wrong if they dont placate to the NEIPA fans and they most probably would to.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

No more than just dreams...
Given that almost every yeast of the Lalbrew range has a MJ counterpart (and those MJ versions are, in my experience, slightly better than the "originals") it would be nice if MJ released its own Verdant version, which could be even better than an already excellent Lalbrew Verdant.
I think the chances are quite high, as we've recently seen MJ hastening to jump onto the IPA fad train, releasing M66 right after the Lalbrew New England had been released (both are failure, in my opinion, but whatever). MJ would be wrong if they dont placate to the NEIPA fans and they most probably would to.

Ah got ya.

So which Lalbrew yeasts are also sold by MJ, do you think? And which MJ matches which Lalbrew in your opinion?

 

[Miraculix]

Ah got ya.

So which Lalbrew yeasts are also sold by MJ, do you think? And which MJ matches which Lalbrew in your opinion?

I think they probably repack all of them. Voss and notty are the rather obvious ones, and the rest is probably also somewhere hidden within their range.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I think they probably repack all of them. Voss and notty are the rather obvious ones, and the rest is probably also somewhere hidden within their range.

I think probably not. I don't see Verdant in their range. Or London. Or Munich Classic. They could be hidden somehow I guess. I don't think Verdant has found its way into anything though. Maybe Lalbrew isn't letting them have it or maybe the price is too high. It's a new and highly popular strain.

 

[Miraculix]

I think probably not. I don't see Verdant in their range. Or London. Or Munich Classic. They could be hidden somehow I guess. I don't think Verdant has found its way into anything though. Maybe Lalbrew isn't letting them have it or maybe the price is too high. It's a new and highly popular strain.

That's actually true. Verdant would be really easy to pinpoint. London ESB is not so flavorful, there are a lot of potential yeasts that could be it. Munich classic, might be one of their hefes, but I haven't brewed with either of them.

 

[Protos]

So which Lalbrew yeasts are also sold by MJ, do you think? And which MJ matches which Lalbrew in your opinion?

OK, I'll try to summarize here my very limited experience and very subjective thoughts on Lalbrew yeasts vs their Mangrove Jack's matches.
IMHO, YMMV, FWIW & all other appropriate disclaimers.

Abbaye - brewed last autumn a full set of Chimays (Doree, Rouge, Blanc, Bleu) with it, the beers are still fermenting or maturing, haven't tasted yet, airlock smell and hydrosamples' taste are hardly distinguishable from M47.

Belle Saison - much like M29 (not like BE-134 at all), though not exactly identical: Belle is a tad more acidic and less earthy. M29 is way better IMO.

BRY-97 - haven't tried yet and probably won't try it soon. I've got a stash of US-05 and I brew American-type beers very rarely, maybe will try BRY sometime in the future.

CBC-1 - haven't tried yet.

Diamond Lager - bought a sachet but didn't manage to try it. Was going to use it in my yearly Twelve (this year, actually, 18) Lagers of Christmas endeavour. But got overwhelmed with M76, S-23 and S-189 fermentations and multiple repitchings. So, had to lay it aside till the next winter.

Farmhouse - haven't tried and will not try. I'm not into the GMO-phobic fad, but using genetically modified yeasts just seem to me unnatural and untraditional, especially in Farmhouse styles, which are all about, exactly, naturality and tradition.

Köln - definitely, a M54. Same peary esters, though not as pronounced as in M54. MJ's version is winner between the two.

London - same as M10 Workhorse and Safale S-33. No much difference between the three.

Munich Classic - close to M20 but not exactly the same. M20 is more acidic and fruity. Lalbrew version is (contrary to the general trend) better.

New England - same as M66. Both are pretty mediocre as English yeasts go. The added Glucoamylase enzyme said to boost hops acted counterproductive in my beers, muting aromas and stripping them of hop flavours.

Nottingham - totally identical to M42.

Philly Sour - was initially interested to try, but then learned this yeast derived from a wild strain discovered on a CEMETERY in Philadelphia. Yuckety yuck. Never.

Verdant - no matches in the MJ range or anywhere in the world of the dry yeasts. Heavenly.

Voss - I don't bother if it's similar to M12 Voss. I've brewed a range of Kveiks with Lalbrew Voss and OYL Hornindal and came to a firm conclusion I just hate Kveiks.

Windsor - slightly duller but otherwise equal to M15.

Wit - haven't tried yet but would be interested to try and compare with M21. Given Lalbrew Munich yeast is superior to M20, I have some hopes Lalbrew Wit could also turn out to be better than not-too-impressing M21 Belgian Wit.




Actually, no discoveries here as you see. All these matches are already registered in the dmtaylor's table.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks!

Just two little comments, try Bry 97 but be prepared for a longer lag phase than usual. It's a really good us ale yeast imo.

The farmhouse yeast is not GMO if I remember correctly. I'm also not a big fan of GMO stuff and like to keep things simple but afaik, this one was just "bread the usual way".

I think m54 was available long before köln was on the market.

Ok, three comments it is.

 

[Protos]

You are right, that wasn't a genetic modification in sensu stricto, rather a "selective breeding". But, again, they produced a totally new yeast variety: a diastatic strain with no distatic properties. My objections are rather aesthetical. I just feel the Farmhouse is not the most proper style for testing the latest microbiological novelties. Perhaps, the proverbial Quadruple-Chilli-Marzipan-Sour-Stout would be a more appropriate application

 

[Miraculix]

You are right, that wasn't a genetic modification in sensu stricto, rather a "selective breeding". But, again, they produced a totally new yeast variety: a diastatic strain with no distatic properties. My objections are rather aesthetical. I just feel the Farmhouse is not the most proper style for testing the latest microbiological novelties. Perhaps, the proverbial Quadruple-Chilli-Marzipan-Sour-Stout would be a more appropriate application

Hahahaha, I understand. I bought myself a pack of that farmhouse yeast, just to see. I never had a dry saison yeast that imparted the flavour that I was looking for so my hope is that this one might be better taste-wise.

Btw. I added a comment about mj 54 above, but you were too fast with your reply to see it. Mj California lager was on the market way before the köln strain from lallemand, so I doubt it's the same yeast.

 

[Protos]

I think m54 was available long before köln was on the market.

Didn't know that.
They are definitely the same strain in my experience. On of the closest Lal/MJ matches, no further than Nottingham and M42. Same peary aroma, same prolonged lagphase, same good flocculation. M54 may have somewhat bolder aroma, but it's the same aroma as in Lal Köln. And for sure both are very far flavourwise from K-97 (which is noticeably more neutral and acidic).
I wonder, could it be then that Lallemand rolled out its German Ale strain first as an "OEM-version" for market testings and only then released it as the branded Lalbrew Köln? The yeast is a comparatively fickly one after all, success wasn't guaranteed.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Hey cheers Protos. I mostly agree.

I think Miraculix is right about M54 pre dating Kōln.

M10 is no longer on the market afaik.

M20 and Munich Classic seem different to me.

M44 is Bry-97, I'm pretty certain.

 

[Shenanigans]

I was about to say the same thing about the Farmhouse.
It's available in the EU and GMO yeasts are not allowed here.
I haven't used it yet but a recommendation as the best dry Saison yeast given to me from another brew forum was Fermentis BE-134.
I ordered a pack a few weeks ago but I still have a liquid Saison yeast so might take a while before I try it.

 

[Protos]

M10 is no longer on the market afaik.

It's reappeared on regional markets recently. See my thread on how I had it delivered from Russia. Hopefully, it soon reappears on the global market again.
I still have a vial of Glycerol-frozen slurry. It's a nice MJ version of London / S-33. The producer advertises it will work up to 30C. My vial waits for the summer to prove or disprove that bold statement.

M44 is Bry-97, I'm pretty certain.s

Haven't tried any. How do they relate to US-05? Same, better or worse?

 

[Miraculix]

Didn't know that.
They are definitely the same strain in my experience. On of the closest Lal/MJ matches, no further than Nottingham and M42. Same peary aroma, same prolonged lagphase, same good flocculation. M54 may have somewhat bolder aroma, but it's the same aroma as in Lal Köln. And for sure both are very far flavourwise from K-97 (which is noticeably more neutral and acidic).
I wonder, could it be then that Lallemand rolled out its German Ale strain first as an "OEM-version" for market testings and only then released it as the branded Lalbrew Köln? The yeast is a comparatively fickly one after all, success wasn't guaranteed.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation.

I also experienced "interesting" behaviour with m54, meaning fermentation slowed down after some time but never really stopped. Kind of like a stuck fermentation, but still continuing sloooooowly so I agree, that yeast can be tricky. But with a big enough pitch is a great room temperature yeast, even above 30c it made great beer.

Another possibility might be that both yeasts have the same "parents"? Don't know, just like Windsor, London, etc. Are very close.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

It's reappeared on regional markets recently. See my thread on how I had it delivered from Russia. Hopefully, it soon reappears on the global market again.
I still have a vial of Glycerol-frozen slurry. It's a nice MJ version of London / S-33. The producer advertises it will work up to 30C. My vial waits for the summer to prove or disprove that bold statement.


Haven't tried any. How do they relate to US-05? Same, better or worse?

I wouldn't use S-33 up to 30C.

M44 & Bry-97 I like. Different from US05. I think 05 expresses hops better, but I like what M44/97 do in terms of malt and mouth feel. I use them more than 05 now.

 

[Protos]

I wouldn't use S-33 up to 30C.

Neither me. But Mangrove Jacks states such a possibility on the packaging. Even 32C. Will see.