Interesting German Brewing PDF

[joshesmusica]

I'm still following along this thread, and on my past few batches have attempted to lower the amount of oxygen intake during the entire process. I did start to doubt while I was in the states, so I didn't buy any metabite there... after seeing the lowoxygenbrewing site, and the side by side photos were pretty convincing. But I have to say, I have an American wheat (60-40 Pilsner/wheat) that's the same color as the LoDO one.

And if I'm gonna be honest, my favorite pils (urquell) looks much more like the one that's oxidized. And again, they're claiming that they're still doing decoctions on that one. Is it just that they're not as focused on that aspect on the hot side at that brewery? Or what's the deal there?

 

[Edelst0ff]

Going back to the "muddy" description of boiled mash water vs yeast/dextrose....

LOX is able to split the unsaturated fatty acids in a relatively short time and thereby produce autooxidation products, which can later lead to ageing carbonyls.

Even very small amounts of hydroxy fatty acids which find their way in the form of intermediate products into beer represent a danger for the flavour stability of the beer. Unsaturated fatty acids are very quickly degraded to intermediate products which come into question as a precursor for the stale flavour.

Yeast produces lipids during fermentation. I have no measurements or specific data as to what happens precisely when degassing the water with yeast, but brewers I trust told me a good while back that adding yeast into the mash is a very bad idea indeed.

So there is the possible explanation for the muddy flavour. Staling compounds.

This is explained in great length in text-books like Kunze's technology of brewing and malting.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

LOX is able to split the unsaturated fatty acids in a relatively short time and thereby produce autooxidation products, which can later lead to ageing carbonyls.

Even very small amounts of hydroxy fatty acids which find their way in the form of intermediate products into beer represent a danger for the flavour stability of the beer. Unsaturated fatty acids are very quickly degraded to intermediate products which come into question as a precursor for the stale flavour.

Yeast produces lipids during fermentation. I have no measurements or specific data as to what happens precisely when degassing the water with yeast, but brewers I trust told me a good while back that adding yeast into the mash is a very bad idea indeed.

So there is the possible explanation for the muddy flavour. Staling compounds.

This is explained in great length in text-books like Kunze's technology of brewing and malting.

Given that LOX-1 and LOX-2 are lost during the kilning process, so crystal and roasts are less of a concern, should we be brewing everything with something like Cargill's Low LOX 2-Row?

 

[bbohanon]

Unfortunately that is the end of the road for your LoDO beer. Bottle CO2 even at 99.9% purity has too much oxygen, not to mention what you picked up in transfer that won't be scavenged.

One of the crucial steps in the process is to naturally carbonate in the serving keg. In fact it's quite simple to do and someone explained how to do it within the last few pages.

I hear ya and it is what it is..I am still looking to tighten up on the cold side for LODO but I am hoping to at least see some sort of improvement with this. I did package the beer to keg with the normal care I usually take and moved it into a completely purged keg through the in post to minimize oxygen introduction where possible.

My future plans (which I was going to do regardless of LODO but will help with LODO) is to:

On the hot side:
- Replace all hoses (I do yearly replacements on these anyhow)
- Pull, clean and re-tape/seal all connections (again, a yearly brewery breakdown/cleanout I do anyhow).
- Pull and clean/service the pump heads and o-rings(again, a yearly deal for me)
- Lengthen the HLT Recirc return fitting (to keep the recirc under the water line at all times)

Cold Side (the biggest chunk of change for me but is currently the only area I know I want to adjust in general as well as for LODO):

- Start fermenting in 2 - 1/4 BBL Sanke Kegs to completely seal the fermenter without breaking the bank (Using Jaybirds adjustable Sanke Keg all in one rig (clean/thermo/purge/etc.)

- X-ferring from 1/4 Sanke to serving cornies (with spunding valves) for the natural carb stage as LODO process recommends (moving the beer from a sealed fermenter to sealed purged serving keg will make sure the beer stays in a closed system when being racked and beats the hell out of siphoning it honestly).

- Any dry hop/secondary additions will get done in the serving corny and will be placed in the keg prior to the x-fer from Sanke fermenter.

I had planned on moving away from fermenter buckets and to the 1/4 sankes for fermentation as the 1/4 ones are bit larger than pistols for the additional fermentation head space so the only additional equipment for LODO on the cold side outside of what I have already planned for will be the spunding valves for the serving cornies..

Its all about streamlining the process and watching how numerous local craft breweries handle their beer (the good ones I mean), I do believe keeping the beer in a sealed environment once it leaves the boil kettle until it hits the glass to be consumed is the way to go..LODO or not.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Unfortunately that is the end of the road for your LoDO beer. Bottle CO2 even at 99.9% purity has too much oxygen, not to mention what you picked up in transfer that won't be scavenged.

One of the crucial steps in the process is to naturally carbonate in the serving keg. In fact it's quite simple to do and someone explained how to do it within the last few pages.

I still don't understand how this can be, considering we all serve with bottled CO2. I'm not arguing for the sake of it, I just don't see any path towards an explanation

 

[bbohanon]

I still don't understand how this can be, considering we all serve with bottled CO2. I'm not arguing for the sake of it, I just don't see any path towards an explanation

I would agree with this as well..even if you naturally carb, you are still pushing the beer with bottled CO2 hooked up for serving.

I still believe that I will or should see some improvement in this beer..I do know naturally carbing is a better option to scavenge the oxygen, but I dont think its worth tossing the baby out with the bathwater completely due to me carbing with Co2 in the keg..

Either way, I am already planning on the cold side to move to a sealed process from the boil kettle to the serving glass before mid-year. LODO or not. I firmly believe doing this will improve the freshness, quality and longevity of the end product.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Given that LOX-1 and LOX-2 are lost during the kilning process, so crystal and roasts are less of a concern, should we be brewing everything with something like Cargill's Low LOX 2-Row?

Even though a considerable proportion of the lipoxygenases is destroyed during kilning, more than a third of the lipoxygenases remain activated in the malt.

I never tried the Cargill malts. For our styles (Helles, Weizen) the malt is very much in the foreground and the manner in which it is malted as well as the raw materials used, have a huge impact.

Mashing in at high temperatures such as is necessary for a hochkurz, as well as conditioning grain at 80C before milling, appears to keep the remaining lipoxygenases sufficiently suppressed.

Therefore I would answer: "Perhaps"

I like the idea of having a larger spectrum of choices for my ingredients.

 

[WiscBrewer]

I'm doing my best to catch up on this thread and low oxygen brewing in general. My question involves the very end of the process. Is it true that I will only be able to bottle from a keg? Is there no way to bottle going from fermenter to bottling bucket to bottle?

 

[Bilsch]

I have no measurements or specific data as to what happens precisely when degassing the water with yeast, but brewers I trust told me a good while back that adding yeast into the mash is a very bad idea indeed.

There are a lot of professional brewers that would say sulfites in your mash is a bad idea and yet here we are.

 

[Edelst0ff]

I'm doing my best to catch up on this thread and low oxygen brewing in general. My question involves the very end of the process. Is it true that I will only be able to bottle from a keg? Is there no way to bottle going from fermenter to bottling bucket to bottle?

Oh not at all! On the contrary!

Bottle conditioning with "Speise" would produce the best results.

 

[WiscBrewer]

Oh not at all! On the contrary!



Bottle conditioning with "Speise" would produce the best results.

Many thanks! I've found a little information about Speise, but not much. Is the process described somewhere, step by step? I assume the beer is left to ferment entirely before bottling, true? Is additional yeast added?

 

[Iseneye]

And if I'm gonna be honest, my favorite pils (urquell) looks much more like the one that's oxidized. And again, they're claiming that they're still doing decoctions on that one. Is it just that they're not as focused on that aspect on the hot side at that brewery? Or what's the deal there?

I assume that they do not do hot side oxygen control like some of the German breweries. I had a quick look at their web page and the first thing I see is great big copper kettles which is a LODO no-no. I quickly googled to see if they krausen and spund but couldn't see anything. There is nothing at all wrong with liking PU but it is unlikely to be a LODO beer.

 

[WiscBrewer]

Oh not at all! On the contrary!



Bottle conditioning with "Speise" would produce the best results.

Many thanks! I've found a little information about Speise, but not much. Is the process described somewhere, step by step? I assume the beer is left to ferment entirely before bottling, true? Is additional yeast added?

 

[Bassman2003]

With lagers you have a wider time window to hit the right level of remaining extract before transfer to the keg but with ale brewing not so much. It’s my opinion ales benefit from longer contact with the yeast cake which allows more time to clean up sulfur notes and other undesirables. So for me, priming in the keg is the preferred method of carbonation for these beers.
I always liquid purge my kegs and therefore have a hard time getting priming sugar or speise in the receiving keg without introducing any oxygen. So what I've been doing lately with success is to make up a dextrose water solution of roughly equal proportions by weight, based on the intended carbonation level, in a small Mason jar then pressure cook to sterilize and drive out the DO. I'm almost always shooting for 2 volumes in 5 gallons so I make these prime shots up ahead of time in bulk like you would do a pre-canned starter wort. And just like starter wort store them at room temperature until needed.
So about an hour before transferring the contents of a fermenter to keg.. I’ll pull the airlock from the bung and drop in a small long stem glass lab funnel and pour the prime shot into the beer that was resting on the cake. Then simply replace the airlock and wait. In about an hour active fermentation will again be visible by the evolution of CO2 and it is at this point I transfer the beer into the keg using a closed loop gas return.

With this method, similar to transferring with remaining extract, you know you have actively fermenting beer that will scavenge any errant oxygen right quick. And as added benefits you get more resident time on the yeast cake and have control on what day you will transfer your beer to the keg.

Thanks for your reply. Sounds pretty easy but I will be honest that cold side LODO is just too much for me. I wish my inner beer nerd would take over but it just seems like work instead of a hobby. If I can't use bottled CO2 to at least augment some natural carbonation then it is a bridge too far. Maybe someday.

 

[schematix]

Thanks for your reply. Sounds pretty easy but I will be honest that cold side LODO is just too much for me. I wish my inner beer nerd would take over but it just seems like work instead of a hobby. If I can't use bottled CO2 to at least augment some natural carbonation then it is a bridge too far. Maybe someday.

Natural carbonation in a keg is so simple to achieve i don't know why it's not more common. I suspect even if you didn't do hot side LoDO you'd still get a net benefit from this.

Make a mixture of 100g sugar and 100g water (actual amounts will vary based on target carbonation and current beer temp and pressure - use a priming sugar calculator), boil it. Rack your beer to the keg. Pour in sugar/water mix (it can still be hot), pressurize to a few psi to set the lid, and leave it for 2 weeks. At 2 weeks put it in the fridge and enjoy the next day.

You can get a little fancier too. I think it was Bilsch that suggested adding the sugar/water mix to the primary keg by unscrewing the PRV and pouring it in via a funnel. That would help reduce the amount of air introduced. Then wait an hour for fermentation to restart, then rack to the serving keg. You can also monitor the actual pressure in the keg and bleed off excess CO2 if you used too much sugar.

 

[Yeastieboy]

Even if you naturally carbonate in the keg to avoid force carbonating; wouldn't putting it on gas for serving eventually introduce oxygen anyways?

 

[joshesmusica]

Even if you naturally carbonate in the keg to avoid force carbonating; wouldn't putting it on gas for serving eventually introduce oxygen anyways?

That one is buried deep into these pages, though I'm not sure it's actually been measured. Just used some simple math according to how much o2 is in the bottled co2. By force carbonating you're adding significantly more of the small percentage of o2 as compared to doing it naturally. Eventually, sure the numbers might align, but the thought is that more than likely the keg will be mostly gone by then.

 

[Jwin]

Even if you naturally carbonate in the keg to avoid force carbonating; wouldn't putting it on gas for serving eventually introduce oxygen anyways?

That one is buried deep into these pages, though I'm not sure it's actually been measured. Just used some simple math according to how much o2 is in the bottled co2. By force carbonating you're adding significantly more of the small percentage of o2 as compared to doing it naturally. Eventually, sure the numbers might align, but the thought is that more than likely the keg will be mostly gone by then.

*No expert here* but I think it's all about equilibrium. If you are applying gassing to naturally carbed beer, the beer isn't really intaking a ton of gas. The gas is simply a force pushing down on it.
This assumes you carbed fully to serving pressure.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I don't remember the page but there was discussion with figures provided for the ingress allowed by gas/serving lines. All I remember is it would take a while and most people kick kegs too quickly for it to be an issue.

 

[rabeb25]

I don't remember the page but there was discussion with figures provided for the ingress allowed by gas/serving lines. All I remember is it would take a while and most people kick kegs too quickly for it to be an issue.

*if naturally carbed.

A sugar primed keg, a spiesed keg and a spunded keg will not all be created equal. I have tested all 3. As Edelstoff says, the speise will be the best you can do for bottle carbonation. But a spunded keg is the holy grail.

The serving oxidation will be faster with ales than it will be with lagers. Lager yeast can produce much higher fermentation derived sulfites( about 10-30ppm), while ale yeast struggle to produce 5ppm. Those fermentation derived sulfites are you key to post fermentation freshness. Once those sulfites get used up, next up is your hop and malt phenols.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

*if naturally carbed.

A sugar primed keg, a spiesed keg and a spunded keg will not all be created equal. I have tested all 3. As Edelstoff says, the speise will be the best you can do for bottle carbonation. But a spunded keg is the holy grail.

The serving oxidation will be faster with ales than it will be with lagers. Lager yeast can produce much higher fermentation derived sulfites( about 10-30ppm), while ale yeast struggle to produce 5ppm. Those fermentation derived sulfites are you key to post fermentation freshness. Once those sulfites get used up, next up is your hop and malt phenols.

Right. I was commenting on this.... "Even if you naturally carbonate in the keg to avoid force carbonating; wouldn't putting it on gas for serving eventually introduce oxygen anyways?" ...... so I figured that part was assumed

 

[Yeastieboy]

Thanks. I will try naturally carbonating my next keg of pilsner.

 

[bbohanon]

Thanks for your reply. Sounds pretty easy but I will be honest that cold side LODO is just too much for me. I wish my inner beer nerd would take over but it just seems like work instead of a hobby. If I can't use bottled CO2 to at least augment some natural carbonation then it is a bridge too far. Maybe someday.

I think the thought with this after reading some of the replies since my last posting is that C02 CAN be used to serve, but you get the maximum LODO benefit from moving the beer to a keg with a few points to spare and letting it finish up in the serving keg (using a spunding rig as others have mentioned) so it scavanges the remaining oxygen picked up during x-fer to keg as well as naturally carbing the beer (which in my mind saves $$$ with CO2 cost).


This to me this is more about knowing when and where your beer is going to finish up and might be something I actually give a try with the octoberfest I have sitting about 5 days in the fermenter..

I still am of the mindset that keeping the beer in a fully sealed environment post boil is the best thing to do honestly for any beer (LODO or non-LODO) on the cold side and is my next big step with my beer.

 

[trav77]

I think the thought with this after reading some of the replies since my last posting is that C02 CAN be used to serve, but you get the maximum LODO benefit from moving the beer to a keg with a few points to spare and letting it finish up in the serving keg (using a spunding rig as others have mentioned) so it scavanges the remaining oxygen picked up during x-fer to keg as well as naturally carbing the beer (which in my mind saves $$$ with CO2 cost).


This to me this is more about knowing when and where your beer is going to finish up and might be something I actually give a try with the octoberfest I have sitting about 5 days in the fermenter..

I still am of the mindset that keeping the beer in a fully sealed environment post boil is the best thing to do honestly for any beer (LODO or non-LODO) on the cold side and is my next big step with my beer.

But even if you do naturally carb in the keg by whatever method, don't you *have* to serve with external CO2? Surely there isn't enough pressure retained from the spund to actually serve a whole keg (or anywhere near that).

 

[TexasWine]

But even if you do naturally carb in the keg by whatever method, don't you *have* to serve with external CO2? Surely there isn't enough pressure retained from the spund to actually serve a whole keg (or anywhere near that).

You do need external bottled CO2 to serve. The issue comes in when you use this bottled co2 to carbonate.

When CO2 makes the journey from the CO2 bottle to the keg, oxygen comes along for the ride and finds itself in the keg too. Force carbonation requires a larger amount of CO2 when compared to simply using the CO2 to serve an already carbonated beer. That means force carbonation also results in more oxygen in the keg.

The amount of oxygen exposure will also increase as the keg contents are depleted and more CO2 is pumped in.

I think everything I'm saying here is accurate. It took some noodle scratching for me to get there, so someone chime in if it's not making sense.

 

[schematix]

I think everything I'm saying here is accurate. It took some noodle scratching for me to get there, so someone chime in if it's not making sense.

This is how i was rationalizing it too and it seems simple. But, if i learned anything from engineering school it was that if a problem seems too simple, there's a very good chance you don't understand it well enough.

I think there may be more at play here such as solubility, partial pressures, diffusion and equilibrium.

I'm also thinking that it's not as much due to the impurity of forced carbonation that's the issue, rather it's the amount of air introduced during racking that contributes the excess oxygen. The natural carbonation process takes care of that air.

I am not stating any of the above as fact, just my thoughts. I would love to see a discussion that puts some numbers to these scenarios.

 

[Bilsch]

But a spunded keg is the holy grail.

Those fermentation derived sulfites are you key to post fermentation freshness. Once those sulfites get used up, next up is your hop and malt phenols.

But this cannot be a hard and fast rule for all beer styles? Most if not all lagers taste better with a little sulfur flavor, or tank taste as Brandon puts it. However in a lot of ale styles those same sulfury notes are out of place. Take for instance an American brown that I make often. Transferring too early to the keg traps some sulfur that takes forever to age out if at all. Conversely if I allow an additional week in contact with the yeast cake these off flavors are cleaned up and/or vented as opposed to being trapped by the spund. My kolsch brewed with 2565 also benefits from longer primary time. Thus my use of the method to restart the ferment after that resident time but before transfer.
Am I losing staling protection from the yeast derived sulfites? Most probably.. but then Kölsch isn't a beer that stores well anyway.

 

[doug293cz]

You do need external bottled CO2 to serve. The issue comes in when you use this bottled co2 to carbonate.

When CO2 makes the journey from the CO2 bottle to the keg, oxygen comes along for the ride and finds itself in the keg too. Force carbonation requires a larger amount of CO2 when compared to simply using the CO2 to serve an already carbonated beer. That means force carbonation also results in more oxygen in the keg.

The amount of oxygen exposure will also increase as the keg contents are depleted and more CO2 is pumped in.

I think everything I'm saying here is accurate. It took some noodle scratching for me to get there, so someone chime in if it's not making sense.

Correct.

If your beer finished fermentation with 0.85 vols of CO2, and you forced carbed to 2.5 vols, then that would require 2.5 - 0.85 = 1.65 vols of CO2 from the bottle. For 5 gal of beer that would be 8.25 gal at 14.7 psi absolute. To serve 5 gal at 12 psi gauge (26.7 psia) would require 5 gal * 26.7 psia / 14.7 psia = 9.08 gal at 14.7 psia. So, force carbonating exposes the beer to almost twice as much total O2 as naturally carbonating over the life of the keg. Different fermentation temperature (starting carb level), different final carb level (CO2 pressure & temp), and correcting for actual temp vs. 0˚C (STP) will change the numbers a little bit, but not change the basic conclusion.

Brew on

 

[bbohanon]

Correct.

If your beer finished fermentation with 0.85 vols of CO2, and you forced carbed to 2.5 vols, then that would require 2.5 - 0.85 = 1.65 vols of CO2 from the bottle. For 5 gal of beer that would be 8.25 gal at 14.7 psi absolute. To serve 5 gal at 12 psi gauge (26.7 psia) would require 5 gal * 26.7 psia / 14.7 psia = 9.08 gal at 14.7 psia. So, force carbonating exposes the beer to almost twice as much total O2 as naturally carbonating over the life of the keg. Different fermentation temperature (starting carb level), different final carb level (CO2 pressure & temp), and correcting for actual temp vs. 0˚C (STP) will change the numbers a little bit, but not change the basic conclusion.

Brew on

Good info..Still digesting all of this and adjusting each side of the brew as I go, but seeing how the numbers for this portion of the beer cycle makes this make better sense in my mind...

 

[Bassman2003]

Natural carbonation in a keg is so simple to achieve i don't know why it's not more common. I suspect even if you didn't do hot side LoDO you'd still get a net benefit from this.

Make a mixture of 100g sugar and 100g water (actual amounts will vary based on target carbonation and current beer temp and pressure - use a priming sugar calculator), boil it. Rack your beer to the keg. Pour in sugar/water mix (it can still be hot), pressurize to a few psi to set the lid, and leave it for 2 weeks. At 2 weeks put it in the fridge and enjoy the next day.

You can get a little fancier too. I think it was Bilsch that suggested adding the sugar/water mix to the primary keg by unscrewing the PRV and pouring it in via a funnel. That would help reduce the amount of air introduced. Then wait an hour for fermentation to restart, then rack to the serving keg. You can also monitor the actual pressure in the keg and bleed off excess CO2 if you used too much sugar.

So if you were brewing a helles, would you let the keg sit warm for two weeks after a cold primary to get its carbonation? Does not seem like something you would normally do unless chasing LODO. Maybe adding lager yeast and keeping it cold?