Interesting German Brewing PDF

[Magnus314]

So, we are almost a year past the initial publishing of the guidelines. Have the authors had a chance to substantiate their subjective claims with scientific data?

Seriously? Why did you wait a year and are STILL COMPLAINING? Try it or don't WE DON'T CARE.

If it's not for you, cool. If you haven't even tested it, that's not science.

The vast majority of people who drink/taste my low DO beers vs my non- low DO beers prefer them. It's a blind test, over 150 people have gone through the "experiment" and I have no urge to prove any of it to anyone who's never tried it and thinks their "high" DO beer is better.

If you think so, good for you. Why are you here?

 

[TheHairyHop]

to get back on topic, does anyone have a corny keg spunding valve that they find to be "fool proof"? I made the one in this thread (post 12)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=245337&page=2

but I occasionally have problems with very slow leaks

 

[TexasWine]

to get back on topic, does anyone have a corny keg spunding valve that they find to be "fool proof"? I made the one in this thread (post 12)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=245337&page=2

but I occasionally have problems with very slow leaks

I've used this one with success. My only quibble is that I'm not convinced the pressure gauge is very accurate and it doesn't have enough resolution for the pressures we normally operate at. I would rather have a gauge ranged from 0-20 psig than the range of 0-60 psig it comes with.

http://www.homebrewing.org/Adjustab...Ok293egD_ygIiTgSQu2L_bHg1ct5xA-ExkaAprU8P8HAQ

 

[Bilsch]

These pressure relief valves are finicky bastards and occasionally leak. Also the fittings and sometimes the keg post o ring will leak as well. Myself and a few other people who spund regularly have given up leaving the valve connected full time to the keg. If you calculate the remaining extract or even more accurate, use the correct amount of carbing sugar or speise in the keg it usually comes close to the proper carbonation level sealed up and left alone. I simply use my spunding valve as a way to test the kegs a week or so after transfer and bleed a little CO2 if necessary.

 

[schematix]

These pressure relief valves are finicky bastards and occasionally leak. Also the fittings and sometimes the keg post o ring will leak as well. Myself and a few other people who spund regularly have given up leaving the valve connected full time to the keg. If you calculate the remaining extract or even more accurate, use the correct amount of carbing sugar or speise in the keg it usually comes close to the proper carbonation level sealed up and left alone. I simply use my spunding valve as a way to test the kegs a week or so after transfer and bleed a little CO2 if necessary.

I find they are useful for keeping the primary keg under a controlled pressure during the initial fermentation, but once it winds down, they will leak out all the excess pressure.

I am really nervous right now. I've got a Bock that has taken a week longer than usual, and yesterday it just started to slow down, but it's still 3-4 days away from racking at the current rate. Of course I then had to go out of town. I instructed my wife that if the pressure drops below 3.5 psi that she needs to pull the spund valves off. Chances are though she's going to tell me she's too busy to do it, and i'm going to come home to depressurized kegs in a couple days.

 

[techbrau]

A dab of keg lube on the O-ring of the spunding valve's seal will help.

That said I don't bother with a spunding valve anymore and just rack with enough residual sugar to carbonate.

 

[Bassman2003]

So you transfer from your primary to your keg before fermentation is complete? Do you add any more yeast for the carbonation? Seems easy but is it difficult to hit the right time to transfer?

 

[TheHairyHop]

A dab of keg lube on the O-ring of the spunding valve's seal will help.

That said I don't bother with a spunding valve anymore and just rack with enough residual sugar to carbonate.

this is what I do, but since I dry hop IPAs, I prefer to have a spund on after the hops hit the beer in order to maintain a positive pressure environment

 

[rabeb25]

These pressure relief valves are finicky bastards and occasionally leak. Also the fittings and sometimes the keg post o ring will leak as well. Myself and a few other people who spund regularly have given up leaving the valve connected full time to the keg. If you calculate the remaining extract or even more accurate, use the correct amount of carbing sugar or speise in the keg it usually comes close to the proper carbonation level sealed up and left alone. I simply use my spunding valve as a way to test the kegs a week or so after transfer and bleed a little CO2 if necessary.

Ugg that sucks, I have never had them leak. I have one that hasn't been used for weeks, I happen to had to move it last night and it was sitting at 10psi.

 

[Bilsch]

So you transfer from your primary to your keg before fermentation is complete? Do you add any more yeast for the carbonation? Seems easy but is it difficult to hit the right time to transfer?

With lagers you have a wider time window to hit the right level of remaining extract before transfer to the keg but with ale brewing not so much. It’s my opinion ales benefit from longer contact with the yeast cake which allows more time to clean up sulfur notes and other undesirables. So for me, priming in the keg is the preferred method of carbonation for these beers.
I always liquid purge my kegs and therefore have a hard time getting priming sugar or speise in the receiving keg without introducing any oxygen. So what I've been doing lately with success is to make up a dextrose water solution of roughly equal proportions by weight, based on the intended carbonation level, in a small Mason jar then pressure cook to sterilize and drive out the DO. I'm almost always shooting for 2 volumes in 5 gallons so I make these prime shots up ahead of time in bulk like you would do a pre-canned starter wort. And just like starter wort store them at room temperature until needed.
So about an hour before transferring the contents of a fermenter to keg.. I’ll pull the airlock from the bung and drop in a small long stem glass lab funnel and pour the prime shot into the beer that was resting on the cake. Then simply replace the airlock and wait. In about an hour active fermentation will again be visible by the evolution of CO2 and it is at this point I transfer the beer into the keg using a closed loop gas return.

With this method, similar to transferring with remaining extract, you know you have actively fermenting beer that will scavenge any errant oxygen right quick. And as added benefits you get more resident time on the yeast cake and have control on what day you will transfer your beer to the keg.

 

[Edelst0ff]

So, we are almost a year past the initial publishing of the guidelines. Have the authors had a chance to substantiate their subjective claims with scientific data?

Hello!

Sorry that you got some spirited comments. I value critical thinking and your question is more than apt.

The scientific data for the "writeup" (as I prefer to call it) are explained in great detail in the following works which were initially recommended to the "group" (if that's what you want to call this uncanny alliance of interests ).

https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/technology-brewing-and-malting

and for the German speakers

http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-3527659889.html

some of the loose ends where translated and adapted from

http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-3527310355,subjectCd-HO40.html

Now, I would be the last one to claim any of us did a good job, but there was a very spirited effort and some pretty interesting results from attempts to translate the theories outlined in these works to smaller systems and capabilities and to try these for ourselves.

The novelty here is the use of Sulfides, similar to what is practiced since Roman times in Wine-making, in order to level the playing field to keep oxygen ingress in check in comparison with substantially larger brewing systems.

The credit for this light bulb going up goes fair and square to techbrau who is also roaming these forums on occasions.

It's a very elegant method for home brewers and we repeatedly achieve most satisfactory results. However, your mileage may vary.

Therefore I would suggest you dig into the above mentioned literature. Who knows what you might come up with? As far as I can say, the results from making the recommendation of the above literature and a modest Extech DO meter had quite an impact.

 

[lari]

hi folks,
i have a few silly questions:

1. when boiling wort, towards the end i like to drain a few litres of wort to help sanitise the tap and silicon hose. at this point how bad is splashing?

2. when transferring from kettle to fermenter in the past i have used wort sprayer thingy to help aerate the wort. for LoDO my only method of aerating is shaking which admittedly i don’t like and i want to avoid. could, perhaps leaving a fermenter semi-open for a night or so provide yeast enough oxygen for a healthy fermentation and not oxidise the beer?

 

[Jwin]

hi folks,
i have a few silly questions:

1. when boiling wort, towards the end i like to drain a few litres of wort to help sanitise the tap and silicon hose. at this point how bad is splashing?

2. when transferring from kettle to fermenter in the past i have used wort sprayer thingy to help aerate the wort. for LoDO my only method of aerating is shaking which admittedly i don’t like and i want to avoid. could, perhaps leaving a fermenter semi-open for a night or so provide yeast enough oxygen for a healthy fermentation and not oxidise the beer?

From what I've seen in this,

Cold side aeration is still advised. I would not leave the fermenter open. It wouldn't provide any real oxygen but open the door for infection. You should be able to continue to use your spray nozzle after the wort is chilled.
I'll let others field the first question if they please, but seeing as the entire process is based around HSA, I would advise against splashing. Sanitize your valve before the boil. A spray bottle of starsan will do the trick. The valve should reach over 165° fairly easily for an extended amount of time anyway.
You can spray an ounce or so inside the hose and rock it back and forth

 

[Magnus314]

You can use the wort sprayer thingy, just pitch the yeast first so they take up the oxygen they need while you are racking to the fermenter.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Going back to the "muddy" description of boiled mash water vs yeast/dextrose....

Another thing to consider is there are more dissolved gases in tap water than just oxygen (CO2, O2, N2, and others). If using the yeast/dextrose method to remove DO, then that is all you are removing, O2. If you are pre-boiling, then you are removing all dissolved gases. Would this possibly cause the muddiness?

On a side note, since CO2 reacts with water to make carbonic acid, and boiling it would remove the acid, this would raise the pH. Is this something we need to take into account when doing pH calcs? or is this negligible?

 

[rabeb25]

Going back to the "muddy" description of boiled mash water vs yeast/dextrose....

Another thing to consider is there are more dissolved gases in tap water than just oxygen (CO2, O2, N2, and others). If using the yeast/dextrose method to remove DO, then that is all you are removing, O2. If you are pre-boiling, then you are removing all dissolved gases. Would this possibly cause the muddiness?

On a side note, since CO2 reacts with water to make carbonic acid, and boiling it would remove the acid, this would raise the pH. Is this something we need to take into account when doing pH calcs? or is this negligible?

I don't think so, I think its the yeast and heating itself.

On your side note- its negligible with RO/Distilled water.

 

[bbohanon]

So I made my first attempt at LODO brewing with an IPA I make quite often so I have a reference with this recipe for any taste improvements, etc..

Ironically, the only LODO things I read up on that I needed to do with my brew day that I was NOT already doing was the pre-boil strike/sparge along with the SMB additions and making sure all stirring/recircing on the hot side was done as quietly as possible. Should be easy right? :fro:

It was a brew day of the good/bad/ugly and a bit of opining for next steps attempting this with my system...

This IPA was basically 2-row with some C60 and Munich 10.

The Mash - Was able to boil the needed strike water without issue for 10 mins in the HLT, add the appropriate amount of SMB (and other water additions as per the desired profile) and x-ferred the strike water to the MLT quietly(and with the MT lid ON.

The sparge water was boiled in the HLT next for 10 mins, SMB was added and during the chilling process and then my nephew who is my brew helper accidentally closed both valves on the HERMS (top and bottom) during sparge chill which caused pressure (water being heated rapidly) in the HERMs coil which lead it to shake and pull one of its ends OUT of the compression fitting..BLOW OUT!

Ended up having to (as quietly as possible) x-ferring the sparge water to boil kettle, fix the HERMS coil and as quietly as possible move the water back to the HLT. I probably introduced a bit more Oxygen than I wanted to with this, but it is what it is.

Mash-in - I used a SS bowl and carefully moved the grain from grain bucket into the MT and made sure I stirred very, very lightly, submerging the grains as soon as they hit the water to reduce trapped oxygen. Doing this ensured zero dough balls so there was honestly minimal stirring needed for mash-in.
I put the recirc hose under the water line of mash and left the lid on the MT on the entire time of the mash.

For the mash (I mashed at 151 for 60 with recirc again, with the recirc hose UNDER the water line), I DID notice that the wort was much clearer and brighter with much less "foam" on the surface than I normally see in it. I have pics of all of this that I will eventually post but Photobucket is acting up so that will come later.
Wort was delicious and malty.

On mash out/sparge to kettle, the wort was very clear..much clearer and was probably the clearest wort I have had to date..Again, I have pics, but will post later.

Boiled at the suggested temp for "simmering" for 60mins at 210/211 (easy to do with my system and I do this anyhow to minimize boilovers) and chilled wort to 65deg, xferred to buckets and pitched a pack and a half of S05 during fill up so it gets aerated/mixed in well.

I hit all my numbers from MT to fermenter on both the PH and gravity side so I did not see any lack in efficiency on my system going LODO at all.


Will have to wait and see how this turns out as I normally x-fer to a purged keg using the out-post for reduced splashing/oxygen introduction even when not brewing LODO and I dont have a spunding setup yet (waiting to see if any of this actually matters before spending more money with this honestly) so x-ferring to a fully purged keg will have to do for now.

Brew Day Notes:
I have high hopes for this IPA even with the sparge mishap. I really think the mash did have some significant improvement over previous batches both from a visual and sensory aspect.
I also need to find a better way to chill the sparge water in the HLT..maybe an additional bag of ice with a cooler to continually push cold water through the HERMS might do the trick but will see how this batch turns out before continuing down this road.

Additional improvements to try on my end:

- Figure out/streamline the sparge chilling issue (again a cooler with ice water getting pushed through the herms coil might work here)
- Replace all transfer hoses (planned to do this anyway this year)
- Clean/service pumps, pump connections and pump heads (planned to do this anyway this year)

All in all, this certainly added significant time to the brew day and I have yet to see an end result with this being my first batch, but if the beer is better, I will continue to move toward this path and invest more time/$$ into it.

More to come with my first LODO go as this beer gets closer to being ready.
Bill

So I racked the IPA to kegs this past weekend..I noticed the hop character was a bit more crisp and bright..the beer had a nice smooth-ness to the hop bite and the beer fermented a bit better this time around so my ABV popped a bit (never a bad thing).
I have a keg on the gas and will be pulling a first sample this weekend to see what things taste like.

I also brewed an Octoberfest on Monday using as much of the LODO process as I could and the wort again was not foamy and the aroma was very non-existent.
The wort when I pitched the yeast was really good..This one is a lager so it will take some time to finish out..will update on that one as well as things come together with it all.

More to come, but so far, so good on these last 2 batches. I am seeing changes in the beer but the final product will tell the tale.

Once my pipeline dies down a bit, I might do a dual batch over a long weekend and do a LODO and a non-LODO batch to do a more true-to-life test. Spring is coming so a dual batch with my hefe recipe might be the trick for this test.
I still have some equipment mods I really want to do before doing this test as well...

 

[Iseneye]

So, we are almost a year past the initial publishing of the guidelines. Have the authors had a chance to substantiate their subjective claims with scientific data? DO measurements during the full process of normal vs. lodo techniques prescribed, double blind triangle tests of final beers, etc? I just checked and did not see an update or addendum to the paper.

Triangle test results on the page below. 27/30 chose correctly and 27 of the tasters preferred LODO.

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/the-infamous-low-oxygen-sensory-analysis/

 

[schematix]

I have a keg on the gas and will be pulling a first sample this weekend to see what things taste like.

Unfortunately that is the end of the road for your LoDO beer. Bottle CO2 even at 99.9% purity has too much oxygen, not to mention what you picked up in transfer that won't be scavenged.

One of the crucial steps in the process is to naturally carbonate in the serving keg. In fact it's quite simple to do and someone explained how to do it within the last few pages.

 

[joshesmusica]

Unfortunately that is the end of the road for your LoDO beer. Bottle CO2 even at 99.9% purity has too much oxygen, not to mention what you picked up in transfer that won't be scavenged.



One of the crucial steps in the process is to naturally carbonate in the serving keg. In fact it's quite simple to do and someone explained how to do it within the last few pages.

Assuming one has followed the rest of the steps, except the spunding, will naturally carbonating in the keg still ensure complete LoDO? (Also assuming the racking was done properly)

 

[joshesmusica]

I'm still following along this thread, and on my past few batches have attempted to lower the amount of oxygen intake during the entire process. I did start to doubt while I was in the states, so I didn't buy any metabite there... after seeing the lowoxygenbrewing site, and the side by side photos were pretty convincing. But I have to say, I have an American wheat (60-40 Pilsner/wheat) that's the same color as the LoDO one.

And if I'm gonna be honest, my favorite pils (urquell) looks much more like the one that's oxidized. And again, they're claiming that they're still doing decoctions on that one. Is it just that they're not as focused on that aspect on the hot side at that brewery? Or what's the deal there?

 

[Edelst0ff]

Going back to the "muddy" description of boiled mash water vs yeast/dextrose....

LOX is able to split the unsaturated fatty acids in a relatively short time and thereby produce autooxidation products, which can later lead to ageing carbonyls.

Even very small amounts of hydroxy fatty acids which find their way in the form of intermediate products into beer represent a danger for the flavour stability of the beer. Unsaturated fatty acids are very quickly degraded to intermediate products which come into question as a precursor for the stale flavour.

Yeast produces lipids during fermentation. I have no measurements or specific data as to what happens precisely when degassing the water with yeast, but brewers I trust told me a good while back that adding yeast into the mash is a very bad idea indeed.

So there is the possible explanation for the muddy flavour. Staling compounds.

This is explained in great length in text-books like Kunze's technology of brewing and malting.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

LOX is able to split the unsaturated fatty acids in a relatively short time and thereby produce autooxidation products, which can later lead to ageing carbonyls.

Even very small amounts of hydroxy fatty acids which find their way in the form of intermediate products into beer represent a danger for the flavour stability of the beer. Unsaturated fatty acids are very quickly degraded to intermediate products which come into question as a precursor for the stale flavour.

Yeast produces lipids during fermentation. I have no measurements or specific data as to what happens precisely when degassing the water with yeast, but brewers I trust told me a good while back that adding yeast into the mash is a very bad idea indeed.

So there is the possible explanation for the muddy flavour. Staling compounds.

This is explained in great length in text-books like Kunze's technology of brewing and malting.

Given that LOX-1 and LOX-2 are lost during the kilning process, so crystal and roasts are less of a concern, should we be brewing everything with something like Cargill's Low LOX 2-Row?

 

[bbohanon]

Unfortunately that is the end of the road for your LoDO beer. Bottle CO2 even at 99.9% purity has too much oxygen, not to mention what you picked up in transfer that won't be scavenged.

One of the crucial steps in the process is to naturally carbonate in the serving keg. In fact it's quite simple to do and someone explained how to do it within the last few pages.

I hear ya and it is what it is..I am still looking to tighten up on the cold side for LODO but I am hoping to at least see some sort of improvement with this. I did package the beer to keg with the normal care I usually take and moved it into a completely purged keg through the in post to minimize oxygen introduction where possible.

My future plans (which I was going to do regardless of LODO but will help with LODO) is to:

On the hot side:
- Replace all hoses (I do yearly replacements on these anyhow)
- Pull, clean and re-tape/seal all connections (again, a yearly brewery breakdown/cleanout I do anyhow).
- Pull and clean/service the pump heads and o-rings(again, a yearly deal for me)
- Lengthen the HLT Recirc return fitting (to keep the recirc under the water line at all times)

Cold Side (the biggest chunk of change for me but is currently the only area I know I want to adjust in general as well as for LODO):

- Start fermenting in 2 - 1/4 BBL Sanke Kegs to completely seal the fermenter without breaking the bank (Using Jaybirds adjustable Sanke Keg all in one rig (clean/thermo/purge/etc.)

- X-ferring from 1/4 Sanke to serving cornies (with spunding valves) for the natural carb stage as LODO process recommends (moving the beer from a sealed fermenter to sealed purged serving keg will make sure the beer stays in a closed system when being racked and beats the hell out of siphoning it honestly).

- Any dry hop/secondary additions will get done in the serving corny and will be placed in the keg prior to the x-fer from Sanke fermenter.

I had planned on moving away from fermenter buckets and to the 1/4 sankes for fermentation as the 1/4 ones are bit larger than pistols for the additional fermentation head space so the only additional equipment for LODO on the cold side outside of what I have already planned for will be the spunding valves for the serving cornies..

Its all about streamlining the process and watching how numerous local craft breweries handle their beer (the good ones I mean), I do believe keeping the beer in a sealed environment once it leaves the boil kettle until it hits the glass to be consumed is the way to go..LODO or not.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Unfortunately that is the end of the road for your LoDO beer. Bottle CO2 even at 99.9% purity has too much oxygen, not to mention what you picked up in transfer that won't be scavenged.

One of the crucial steps in the process is to naturally carbonate in the serving keg. In fact it's quite simple to do and someone explained how to do it within the last few pages.

I still don't understand how this can be, considering we all serve with bottled CO2. I'm not arguing for the sake of it, I just don't see any path towards an explanation

 

[bbohanon]

I still don't understand how this can be, considering we all serve with bottled CO2. I'm not arguing for the sake of it, I just don't see any path towards an explanation

I would agree with this as well..even if you naturally carb, you are still pushing the beer with bottled CO2 hooked up for serving.

I still believe that I will or should see some improvement in this beer..I do know naturally carbing is a better option to scavenge the oxygen, but I dont think its worth tossing the baby out with the bathwater completely due to me carbing with Co2 in the keg..

Either way, I am already planning on the cold side to move to a sealed process from the boil kettle to the serving glass before mid-year. LODO or not. I firmly believe doing this will improve the freshness, quality and longevity of the end product.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Given that LOX-1 and LOX-2 are lost during the kilning process, so crystal and roasts are less of a concern, should we be brewing everything with something like Cargill's Low LOX 2-Row?

Even though a considerable proportion of the lipoxygenases is destroyed during kilning, more than a third of the lipoxygenases remain activated in the malt.

I never tried the Cargill malts. For our styles (Helles, Weizen) the malt is very much in the foreground and the manner in which it is malted as well as the raw materials used, have a huge impact.

Mashing in at high temperatures such as is necessary for a hochkurz, as well as conditioning grain at 80C before milling, appears to keep the remaining lipoxygenases sufficiently suppressed.

Therefore I would answer: "Perhaps"

I like the idea of having a larger spectrum of choices for my ingredients.

 

[WiscBrewer]

I'm doing my best to catch up on this thread and low oxygen brewing in general. My question involves the very end of the process. Is it true that I will only be able to bottle from a keg? Is there no way to bottle going from fermenter to bottling bucket to bottle?

 

[Bilsch]

I have no measurements or specific data as to what happens precisely when degassing the water with yeast, but brewers I trust told me a good while back that adding yeast into the mash is a very bad idea indeed.

There are a lot of professional brewers that would say sulfites in your mash is a bad idea and yet here we are.

 

[Edelst0ff]

I'm doing my best to catch up on this thread and low oxygen brewing in general. My question involves the very end of the process. Is it true that I will only be able to bottle from a keg? Is there no way to bottle going from fermenter to bottling bucket to bottle?

Oh not at all! On the contrary!

Bottle conditioning with "Speise" would produce the best results.

 

[WiscBrewer]

Oh not at all! On the contrary!



Bottle conditioning with "Speise" would produce the best results.

Many thanks! I've found a little information about Speise, but not much. Is the process described somewhere, step by step? I assume the beer is left to ferment entirely before bottling, true? Is additional yeast added?

 

[Iseneye]

And if I'm gonna be honest, my favorite pils (urquell) looks much more like the one that's oxidized. And again, they're claiming that they're still doing decoctions on that one. Is it just that they're not as focused on that aspect on the hot side at that brewery? Or what's the deal there?

I assume that they do not do hot side oxygen control like some of the German breweries. I had a quick look at their web page and the first thing I see is great big copper kettles which is a LODO no-no. I quickly googled to see if they krausen and spund but couldn't see anything. There is nothing at all wrong with liking PU but it is unlikely to be a LODO beer.

 

[WiscBrewer]

Oh not at all! On the contrary!



Bottle conditioning with "Speise" would produce the best results.

Many thanks! I've found a little information about Speise, but not much. Is the process described somewhere, step by step? I assume the beer is left to ferment entirely before bottling, true? Is additional yeast added?

 

[Bassman2003]

With lagers you have a wider time window to hit the right level of remaining extract before transfer to the keg but with ale brewing not so much. It’s my opinion ales benefit from longer contact with the yeast cake which allows more time to clean up sulfur notes and other undesirables. So for me, priming in the keg is the preferred method of carbonation for these beers.
I always liquid purge my kegs and therefore have a hard time getting priming sugar or speise in the receiving keg without introducing any oxygen. So what I've been doing lately with success is to make up a dextrose water solution of roughly equal proportions by weight, based on the intended carbonation level, in a small Mason jar then pressure cook to sterilize and drive out the DO. I'm almost always shooting for 2 volumes in 5 gallons so I make these prime shots up ahead of time in bulk like you would do a pre-canned starter wort. And just like starter wort store them at room temperature until needed.
So about an hour before transferring the contents of a fermenter to keg.. I’ll pull the airlock from the bung and drop in a small long stem glass lab funnel and pour the prime shot into the beer that was resting on the cake. Then simply replace the airlock and wait. In about an hour active fermentation will again be visible by the evolution of CO2 and it is at this point I transfer the beer into the keg using a closed loop gas return.

With this method, similar to transferring with remaining extract, you know you have actively fermenting beer that will scavenge any errant oxygen right quick. And as added benefits you get more resident time on the yeast cake and have control on what day you will transfer your beer to the keg.

Thanks for your reply. Sounds pretty easy but I will be honest that cold side LODO is just too much for me. I wish my inner beer nerd would take over but it just seems like work instead of a hobby. If I can't use bottled CO2 to at least augment some natural carbonation then it is a bridge too far. Maybe someday.

 

[schematix]

Thanks for your reply. Sounds pretty easy but I will be honest that cold side LODO is just too much for me. I wish my inner beer nerd would take over but it just seems like work instead of a hobby. If I can't use bottled CO2 to at least augment some natural carbonation then it is a bridge too far. Maybe someday.

Natural carbonation in a keg is so simple to achieve i don't know why it's not more common. I suspect even if you didn't do hot side LoDO you'd still get a net benefit from this.

Make a mixture of 100g sugar and 100g water (actual amounts will vary based on target carbonation and current beer temp and pressure - use a priming sugar calculator), boil it. Rack your beer to the keg. Pour in sugar/water mix (it can still be hot), pressurize to a few psi to set the lid, and leave it for 2 weeks. At 2 weeks put it in the fridge and enjoy the next day.

You can get a little fancier too. I think it was Bilsch that suggested adding the sugar/water mix to the primary keg by unscrewing the PRV and pouring it in via a funnel. That would help reduce the amount of air introduced. Then wait an hour for fermentation to restart, then rack to the serving keg. You can also monitor the actual pressure in the keg and bleed off excess CO2 if you used too much sugar.

 

[Yeastieboy]

Even if you naturally carbonate in the keg to avoid force carbonating; wouldn't putting it on gas for serving eventually introduce oxygen anyways?

 

[joshesmusica]

Even if you naturally carbonate in the keg to avoid force carbonating; wouldn't putting it on gas for serving eventually introduce oxygen anyways?

That one is buried deep into these pages, though I'm not sure it's actually been measured. Just used some simple math according to how much o2 is in the bottled co2. By force carbonating you're adding significantly more of the small percentage of o2 as compared to doing it naturally. Eventually, sure the numbers might align, but the thought is that more than likely the keg will be mostly gone by then.

 

[Jwin]

Even if you naturally carbonate in the keg to avoid force carbonating; wouldn't putting it on gas for serving eventually introduce oxygen anyways?

That one is buried deep into these pages, though I'm not sure it's actually been measured. Just used some simple math according to how much o2 is in the bottled co2. By force carbonating you're adding significantly more of the small percentage of o2 as compared to doing it naturally. Eventually, sure the numbers might align, but the thought is that more than likely the keg will be mostly gone by then.

*No expert here* but I think it's all about equilibrium. If you are applying gassing to naturally carbed beer, the beer isn't really intaking a ton of gas. The gas is simply a force pushing down on it.
This assumes you carbed fully to serving pressure.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I don't remember the page but there was discussion with figures provided for the ingress allowed by gas/serving lines. All I remember is it would take a while and most people kick kegs too quickly for it to be an issue.

 

[rabeb25]

I don't remember the page but there was discussion with figures provided for the ingress allowed by gas/serving lines. All I remember is it would take a while and most people kick kegs too quickly for it to be an issue.

*if naturally carbed.

A sugar primed keg, a spiesed keg and a spunded keg will not all be created equal. I have tested all 3. As Edelstoff says, the speise will be the best you can do for bottle carbonation. But a spunded keg is the holy grail.

The serving oxidation will be faster with ales than it will be with lagers. Lager yeast can produce much higher fermentation derived sulfites( about 10-30ppm), while ale yeast struggle to produce 5ppm. Those fermentation derived sulfites are you key to post fermentation freshness. Once those sulfites get used up, next up is your hop and malt phenols.