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Some questions (that may have been answered previously):

1.) Speaking from your experiences, are LODO methods worth applying to extract / pre-hopped kits? Why or Why not?
2.) Have LODO methods been established for extract / pre-hopped kits?
a.) Is it simply a matter of starting at the wort boil or wort cool stage and going from there?
3.) What beneficial and/or detrimental effects does this have on extract / pre-hopped kits?
 
MaltMaker said:
Some questions (that may have been answered previously):

1.) Speaking from your experiences, are LODO methods worth applying to extract / pre-hopped kits? Why or Why not?
2.) Have LODO methods been established for extract / pre-hopped kits?
a.) Is it simply a matter of starting at the wort boil or wort cool stage and going from there?
3.) What beneficial and/or detrimental effects does this have on extract / pre-hopped kits?
Click to expand...

From my experience with High Dissolved Oxygen, all-grain brews vs. extract kits, are the all-grain brews far superior to extract. I'd imagine this being in part to oxygen ingress, but most importantly to the stress that the compounds endure during the extracting process. This leads to that very typical "extract twang."

So if LoDO is 10x superior to HiDo, then LoDo is 100x superior to extract brewing.

In my opinion.
 
I've not had the pleasure of experiencing extract twang myself, though it would be interesting to know the experience of someone who has employed LODO procedures on an extract or pre-hopped batch.
 
Yeah, plenty of folks have brewed competition winning beers with extract so that twang isn't necessarily inherent with extract brewing. It was interesting to hear that Beersmith podcast with Professor Bamforth where he said that oxygen in the mash can actually be beneficial :)
 
wobdee said:
https://youtu.be/YDBKUCkg8cM
Some interesting stuff on the boil from Charlie Bamforth
Click to expand...

Interesting. LoDo concepts seem to fly in the face with most of what he says. I'd be interested to hear a discussion between Charlie and the LOdo guys.

The part about the low delta between heating surface temp and wort in the boil kettle grabbed my attention.
 
jmark said:
Yeah, plenty of folks have brewed competition winning beers with extract
Click to expand...

I keep hearing this one over and over again around here... can you dig up any recent competition results where extract placed? Maybe 20 years ago that was true but the stuff is pretty meh. I know it can make drinkable beer if all else is well controlled, but in my experience it doesn't really make anything that compares to even the most basic all grain attempts.

Also i think its important to note what a competition is... it's a contest among the participants. It doesn't speak to the quality of the entries in absolute terms, just relative to those who participated. Unless it were a competition that required multiple levels to quality for or just had thousands of entries, it's pretty believable that even a mediocre beer could place in a less popular category.
 
MaltMaker said:
Some questions (that may have been answered previously):

1.) Speaking from your experiences, are LODO methods worth applying to extract / pre-hopped kits? Why or Why not?
2.) Have LODO methods been established for extract / pre-hopped kits?
a.) Is it simply a matter of starting at the wort boil or wort cool stage and going from there?
3.) What beneficial and/or detrimental effects does this have on extract / pre-hopped kits?
Click to expand...

I'm kind of thinking out loud here, and I'm no pro:

Extract has been put through such a process already to get it condensed into it's present state that I do not believe there is much to gain by implementing low oxygen brewing processes in terms of flavor. Most of what we're trying to preserve from the malt has likely already been lost in extract. Stability may (or may not) be different depending on what compounds (I'm thinking oxidizing catalysts here) are present in the malt. With that said, I don't know of any "established" methods for implementing low oxygen brewing processes for extract aside from what we're already doing for all grain batches. The methods we use in all grain low oxygen brewing are simply our best approximation of how to better match commercial brew systems that are designed to keep oxygen ingress to a minimum, which is to say that the field of low oxygen brewing is perfectly wide open to testing and experimentation on all fronts. At least, this is how I view things at the present time.

However, this should not discourage you from implementing changes in your system that exclude oxygen during any process. Our fight against oxygen, and in turn oxidized flavors, in our beer starts from Step 1. Any steps you take to reduce oxygen ingress during your brewing process should be considered beneficial to the flavor and stability of the beer. Sometimes the difference in beer flavor/aroma is stark and astounding, other times it's small and subtle. On the other hand, stability of the beer over time seems to be much more apparent and greatly benefits from low oxygen brewing processes.

Again, this is just my take on things as I see them at present. Techniques, ideas, and findings WILL change as time goes on. Hope this helps address your questions.

BTW, perfectly good beer is made every single day using extracts. Some styles of beer might suffer a little more than others with extract, or you may not be able to achieve some subtle finesse qualities with extract, but don't let that discourage you from continuing with extract if that's what you are capable of right now. As time goes on, you should try a partial mash (mini mash) brew just to get a feel for the all grain mashing methods. It was my single venture into partial mash that set me whirling down the path to all grain.
 
Anyone ever tried to make a 100% extract lager before? Sounds gross but I need to grow up a mass quantity of yeast and was thinking this could give me 5G of beer and all the yeast I need.... bonus if its drinkable (but i will dump and just take the yeast if it's not).

Was thinking 5lbs of DME for ~6G wort, boiled for 30 minutes with about 25 IBU added at 30 mins.
 
I wasn't trying to make light of extract brewing. I'd be willing to bet that a large majority of homebrewers started with extract kits. I was simply saying that from my experience, all-grain is far superior to extract. I haven't fully experienced low-oxygen beers quite yet, but the evidence is there that it will make a superior product for most styles - especially where talking about the longevity of the freshness is concerned.
 
mabrungard said:
I just finished up a Munich Dunkel that was boiled with the kettle lid almost entirely on. It required me to reduce my power setting from my typical 45%, down to 20%. I was still getting a light roiling action and my evaporative losses where down under 10%. Sipping on that beer now, I can attest that there is no DMS in it. So the nearly covered boil was OK with that respect and it was only a 60 min boil and there was a significant Pils malt percentage in the grist.

So, I'm seeing that I don't need to boil the heck out of my wort to produce good beer. I'm just wondering what the lower bound truly is.
Click to expand...

It's really hard to say. I've seen graphs in Narziss showing 98C. But then he later quotes that 100C is necessary for DMS to split (Die Bierbrauerei: Vol 2). That's a bit of conflicting info, if I may say so.

There is the KS Schoko system where wort is barely boiled but the unwanted substances extracted in a vacuum. Others like the Stromboli system from Steinecker-Krones run the wort over an umbrella (?) (Ger: Schirm) in order to help the unwanted stuff escape.
 
schematix said:
Anyone ever tried to make a 100% extract lager before? Sounds gross but I need to grow up a mass quantity of yeast and was thinking this could give me 5G of beer and all the yeast I need.... bonus if its drinkable (but i will dump and just take the yeast if it's not).

Was thinking 5lbs of DME for ~6G wort, boiled for 30 minutes with about 25 IBU added at 30 mins.
Click to expand...

I made an Oktoberfest with extract and specialty grains once, but not pure extract. The beer was decent, but didn't stick the landing. It was actually that beer/attempt/failure-to-hit-style that prompted me to go all-grain.
It was only then that I was able to do a respectable Oktoberfest that would pass muster of to German palate.
That said, you can do it and it will make a decent (drinkable and even enjoyable) lager.
 
Does anyone have further information about copper and LoDO brewing? I know many pages ago there was some talk about not using a copper IC but if used that it shouldn't be shiny copper but should retain the dark patina of copper.

Mine always goes in shiny, comes out shiny. I save some of my cooling water in an enameled canning pot for cleaning, add some PBW and drop the IC in when I'm done cooling. It cleans it fine, I rinse and spray with star san, let it dry and put it away.

From what I understand the shiny copper adds more oxidation but if sodium metabisulfate is used in mashing and sparging as described on this thread and in the PDF then there will be extra (or could be) to take care of the oxidation by copper. Is that correct?

If so, can someone explain how this works and why shiny is worse than the dark patina for a copper IC in terms of oxidation. The acidity of the wort I would think would take off the dark patina and wouldn't that put more undesirables into the wort?

Obviously I'm not a chemist so if someone could explain what I'm missing, I'd be grateful. Thanks!
 
My brown ale is at a week after yeast was pitched. Thought I would try to transfer early adding priming sugar to my bucket and wait an hour before kegging. I noticed a sulfur aroma and flavor in my sample. I used the recommended SMB dose for ales. Is this typical? Haven't experienced this in my beer before. I do Single vessel BIAB and added 40 mg/l dose.

Edit: I went ahead and transferred tonight hoping conditioning will clean it up. Used some harvested bells yeast from a previous batch I made. I noticed the beer in the line was clear and appeared lighter than I would expect. The color was lighter in the sample glass too. Really interesting to compare these results to my usual process. Hoping I didn't use too much SMB, or maybe the sulfur notes are a good thing. Either way it's a learning process. Cheers
 
I brewed a LoDo Dunkel several weeks ago that seems to have stalled out at 1.021 FG. I did a FFT and that showed that my wort would ferment down to 1.011. The gravity has not budged from 1.021 despite raising the temp to 58F for several days and gently (still tastes great).

I think a large part of the problem is that I transferred to spund in my corny way to early (1.026 - I got ancy and nervous I would miss the window), and then blew out the little remaining yeast trying to test the gravity later. Does anyone have any ideas how to jump start this bad boy to finish off? add fresh yeast and priming sugar? Thanks in advance.
 
58F is not nearly warm enough. Boost it into the 70's. Don't worry about undesirable fermentation characteristics since most of the ferment has already occurred. It is primarily the early stages of fermentation where the yeast population is exploding, that you want to keep the temp down. After that point, you can allow it to rise somewhat. Only raise the temp into the 60's and 70's after most of the extract has been consumed.
 
schematix said:
Anyone ever tried to make a 100% extract lager before? Sounds gross but I need to grow up a mass quantity of yeast and was thinking this could give me 5G of beer and all the yeast I need.... bonus if its drinkable (but i will dump and just take the yeast if it's not).

Was thinking 5lbs of DME for ~6G wort, boiled for 30 minutes with about 25 IBU added at 30 mins.
Click to expand...

I make 1 gal starters for lagers using Pilsen light dme and small amounts of noble hops. I ferment them at the same temps as I do larger batches. I push the beer into a keg and force carbonate. I am amazed at how good these are as I have only brewed all grain. DME costs too much to be pouring it down the drain.
 
shelly_belly said:
I make 1 gal starters for lagers using Pilsen light dme and small amounts of noble hops. I ferment them at the same temps as I do larger batches. I push the beer into a keg and force carbonate. I am amazed at how good these are as I have only brewed all grain. DME costs too much to be pouring it down the drain.
Click to expand...

Good data point. I agree on the cost.... nearly $20 for a 5lb bag of DME. That's about the same as a 30 rack of macro beer.

I think i'm going to give it a shot. Worst case i'll dump it and just keep the yeast. That's what i'm really after anyways.
 
catsnbeer said:
I brewed a LoDo Dunkel several weeks ago that seems to have stalled out at 1.021 FG. I did a FFT and that showed that my wort would ferment down to 1.011. The gravity has not budged from 1.021 despite raising the temp to 58F for several days and gently (still tastes great).
Click to expand...

I hope you did that test with the same yeast ;)

It is not uncommon for lager breweries to introduce fresh yeast in secondary. Often this is a secondary strain even.

I don't know why adding priming sugar would be necessary since, according to your test, there are still fermentables left.

You could just raise the temperature, as has been suggested.

Failing that, you may need to introduce fresh, healthy yeast to help it clear up and carbonate rather quickly. This is best done by introducing about 12% of new fermenting wort where the yeast is at its highest propagation state (high Kräusen).

Going forward i'd investigate yeast nutrient levels and especially aeration. Your initial cell count may have been too low as well. I'd aim for 20x10^6 cells per ml.
 
Just to throw an anecdote on yeast out there.
I'm drinking my third NEIPA and it is the best yet, enough that I consider my recipe done - no more tweaking or tinkering the grain bill, only going to vary the hops combination from time to time.

Anyway, for this (my favorite) batch, I used WLP007. It fermented beautifully, taking me from OG 1.074 to FG 1.012, flocc'd thoroughly, and did pretty much everything I would want a yeast to do on a brew like this.

I have not tried Conan yet, but I don't really see a need to do anything exotic on yeast. WLP007 will be my go-to NEIPA yeast from here out.

**EDIT** I posted before I was finished. Here is the rest.
I've been having great success with my NEIPAs, but the hops flavor/aroma does fade quickly (within a couple of weeks). They were done via normal, not Low O2 methods. I look forward to trying these via Low O2 to see if I can preserve that dry hop flavor and aroma longer. Last night I just closed-loop transferred the remaining half keg into a purged 2.5 gallon keg in which I put some fresh dry hops to revive it a little.
If Low O2 can help with this flavor preservation, I will be on board.
(Brewing my first Low O2 brew this weekend - a Bavarian Pils).
 
TheHairyHop said:
I'm glad to hear that you are satisfied with your efforts! care to share the recipe?
Click to expand...
Sure.
5 Gallon Batch:

8 lb 2-Row Pale Malt (56.1%)
3 lb Vienna Malt (21.1%)
1 lb Flaked Wheat (7%)
1 lb Flaked Oats (7%)
4 oz Honey Malt (1.8%)
1 lb Honey (7%) - added at flameout
---
Boil Hops:
1 oz Azacca - 15 min boil
At Flameout:
1 oz each: Azacca, Citra, Galaxy
Dry hop on Day 3:
1 oz each: Azacca, Citra, Galaxy
Dry Hop on Day 6:
1 oz each: Azacca, Citra, Galaxy
---
WLP007 fermented at 70F
OG: 1.074
FG: 1.012
ABV: 8% but soooo smooth
---
Mashed at 150 for 60 min with 17.25 qt (1.3 qt/lb)
Drained first runnings then 2-part batch sparge to get 6.5 gal in kettle
Added honey heated dissolved in a pint of water at flameout.
---
This version picked up more bitterness than I had in previous batches due to the large flameout addition (that stayed in through chilling). That would be easily remedied by adding some of the flameout later, but it's not an off-putting bitterness at all, especially if yo ulike IPAs - certainly nothing along the lines of a west coast IPA, so really not aggressive).
I change the hops a little with each batch each time .
Another version that was much less bitter and very delicious, but had a little dankness (which I tried to remove with this batch) was as follows:
1 oz Simcoe - 15 min boil
1 oz Citra- 5 min boil
1 oz Mosaic - flameout
Dry hop on Day 3:
1 oz Citra
1 oz Galaxy
Dry Hop on Day 6:
2 oz Citra
2 oz Galaxy
Obviously the Mosaic and Simcoe can be blamed for the dankness, which some people love, but I am iffy on. I want nothing but tropical fruit in my NEIPA.
Like I said, I can't wait to try this Low O2 to try to keep that fresh dry hop goodness longer.

NEIPA.jpg
 
rabeb25 said:
If you use all 3 (45/45/10) and dosed it at .37g/gal you would end up with roughly 45ppm meta. If you dosed at .25g/gal you would be at 30ppm
Click to expand...

Is the goal using a blend like this to limit SMB at the upper range? So if your limit is 30ppm, you would get additional protection from AA at 30ppm which will reduce the risk of too much sulfur in the final product? Thinking about getting a SS chiller so would probably remove the brewtan addition. On that note, where does one find brewtan? Having a difficult time searching for it.
 
oujens said:
Is the goal using a blend like this to limit SMB at the upper range? So if your limit is 30ppm, you would get additional protection from AA at 30ppm which will reduce the risk of too much sulfur in the final product? Thinking about getting a SS chiller so would probably remove the brewtan addition. On that note, where does one find brewtan? Having a difficult time searching for it.
Click to expand...

Listened to an experimental Homebrew podcast last week over brewtan. The Brewtan Guy said it should be more available stateside by summer/fall.
 
So my first Low O2 beer is fermenting away nicely. (Actually it is the second, but I screwed up so many things in the first attempt implementing too many new processes that I scrapped it and started over).

I was initially a skeptic of the process, and was turned off by the tone and implications of the original paper (PDF if you will, but it is basically a white paper). Then I did some research and decided instead of attacking the idea from a position of ignorance, I would give it an honest try and form my own opinions. Once the beer is done (in about six weeks or so), I will do a full writeup with conclusions from an objective point of view, as I am neither hostile to the idea not a fanboy (yet).

It is a German (Bavarian) Pils.
I pulled a sample yesterday and it is the most delicious wort I have ever tasted. It instantly brought back childhood memories of eating Corn Flakes with sugar on it (I guess you could say Frosted Flakes, but my house wasn't that fancy growing up ;-)
Before you scoff and say it's just DMS, no, it isn't. This is nothing like DMS, and not merely reminiscent of Corn Flakes cereal, but dead-on. There is the usual sweetness from raw/fermenting wort, but this is more like honey than the muted malt sweetness I usually get, and the flavor of cereal grains is unmistakable.

We'll see how the beer turns out, but initial impressions are...impressive.

I am going to repeat the process with a Kellerbier hopefully this weekend.

Prost!:mug:
 
Just thought I'd share my experience with IPA's and my modified LoDO process.

I was both fascinated and skeptical when I read the PDF and this thread several months back. I was most interested in how some of the techniques might be transferred to improving some issues with my IPA's. I was finding oxidation in my IPA's, not noticeable to others but I could taste it. All of them started out fine but the hop aroma would become muted after a month or so and some would darken a bit after a month or two and those developed a caramel-type flavor despite having no caramel in the grain bill.

I know much of what folks have focused on is reducing cold side oxidation with spunding but I figured that's no good if there's something causing my problem on the hot side so I wanted to focus on that first. I do boil all my water (temporary hardness issues) for mash and sparge so I figured at least I was getting rid of the oxygen in the mash & sparge water. I narrowed down the issue with my worst oxidized beers to be that if I was boiling off too much or had a boilover, I'd heat up some water to say 180F and add it to the boil while I still had about a half hour before cooling. Even though the volume of unboiled water I'd add was only a quart or two, it was enough to cause oxidation later on. So I don't do that anymore. But that only took care of the worst of the oxidized IPA's, what could I do for the less oxidized IPA's? NaMeta to the rescue.

I do have a copper IC and I'm not really interested in getting rid of it at this point so I decided to see using NaMeta in the mash and sparge would help scavenge more oxygen. For my last couple of IPA's (5 gallons) I've added a tablet (crushed of course) to the mash water and half a tablet to the sparge water. I'm not doing the spunding but fermenting in a carboy and adding my dry hops a couple of days into fermentation. I've been experimenting with differing amounts of NaMeta to the keg but even with as much as a half a tablet for a 2.5g keg, I've not noticed any sulfur. The beer holds onto the hop aroma and the beer isn't changing color even when it's been in the keg for over 2 months!!

I know all of this doesn't follow the PDF exactly but my point is that even small changes can make a big difference in your IPA's. If you look at all potential hot side oxidation issues first and eliminate as many of those as is possible with your system you may find that you've improved your beer significantly. I know many are firm in their belief that you must implement ALL of the LoDO techniques to see an improvement in your beer but I've found what works for me and improves my beer.

I'm very thankful to the OP of this thread for sharing the PDF!
 
Hey no problem! At some point everyone needs to taylor it for themselves.
 
I'm currently drinking the best Helles I've ever made, thanks to low oxygen processes.

The first time I brewed a low O2 lager I was a bit concerned when I tasted some samples from the fermentor and it was drier than a popcorn fart. The 1.009 FG tasted like it was 0.995 FG! It does mellow and smooth with lagering.
 
You were most likely used to tasting the cloyingly sweet oxidized caramalts. Congrats on the beer!
 
rabeb25 said:
You were most likely used to tasting the cloyingly sweet oxidized caramalts. Congrats on the beer!
Click to expand...

Even compared to Weihenstephaner Original (my favorite Helles), mine seemed a bit drier on the finish. It's not astringent by any means. In fact it's downright superb. And, like I said, that perception does fade with extended lagering.
 
Well WO is brewed with 8% carahell. So depending on what your recipe was, that's probably a factor as well
 
Tiber_Brew said:
I'm currently drinking the best Helles I've ever made, thanks to low oxygen processes.

The first time I brewed a low O2 lager I was a bit concerned when I tasted some samples from the fermentor and it was drier than a popcorn fart. The 1.009 FG tasted like it was 0.995 FG! It does mellow and smooth with lagering.
Click to expand...

Congrats, and glad to see you see some merits in the process. Let us know when you try it on your kolsch.

And I'm enjoying a fantastic Pilsner at the moment myself, low DO. Supremely enjoyable.
 
I just made my Pils recipe (slightly adjusted) with LoDO, and the Kölsch is next. To no surprise, LoDO has taken already great recipes and made them world class beers.

I've been using a tad of light Munich for my pale lagers, but it sounds like carapils will have to make into my next brew.
 

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