Interesting German Brewing PDF

SSBrew - 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Tiber_Brew said:
I just made my Pils recipe (slightly adjusted) with LoDO, and the Kölsch is next. To no surprise, LoDO has taken already great recipes and made them world class beers.

I've been using a tad of light Munich for my pale lagers, but it sounds like carapils will have to make into my next brew.
Click to expand...

I would caution against using any sulfites if you plan on using K-97. I had a couple very sulfury beers with this yeast and low oxygen brewing practices; for reference, my dosage was 30ppm and 25ppm (both very sulfury, the higher dosage being the worst).
 
Tiber_Brew said:
I just made my Pils recipe (slightly adjusted) with LoDO, and the Kölsch is next. To no surprise, LoDO has taken already great recipes and made them world class beers.

I've been using a tad of light Munich for my pale lagers, but it sounds like carapils will have to make into my next brew.
Click to expand...


I wouldn't use carapils, well I mean you can, but it's not going to give you a real flavor contribution. 10% light Munich is not out of place for authentic.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Tiber_Brew said:
I plan on sticking with WLP029 - any issue with that strain also? I could dial the SMB way down or omit altogether if there's risk of a sulfur bomb.
Click to expand...

I've been trying to maintain a list of yeast strains that have had good/meh/poor results in low oxygen brewing based on user feedback (yeast list link). Unfortunately, WLP029 is not listed so either hasn't had any feedback on it in a low oxygen brewing environment or I've missed the feedback. Either way, I would do like rabab25 suggests and aim on the lower end of ale-safe (20ppm) and that should keep you in pretty safe territory to not result in a "sulfur bomb" beer. It'll provide you a low level of protection against oxygen ingress throughout the mashing/boil process and will likely leave you with almost no sulfites going into fermentation (depending on tightness of low oxygen brewing system/process of course).
 
rabeb25 said:
I have used 30ppm and 20ppm with 2565. There was a touch of sulfur with 30, but with 20 it was fantastic. I went 95% pils, 5% carahell ( which isa recipe professional German brewing literature sites).
View attachment 395067
Click to expand...

How do you think that will work with the Saflager W-34/70?

Described as, "The famous "Weihenstephan" yeast from Germany. A widely used yeast strain that gives beer a clean finish and lets the malt really come through."

This dry yeast is not on the "approved" list yet. I may have to give it a try.
MS
 
It's not on approved because we strongly dislike the current dry lager strains in general. But as always give it a try and see what you think.
 
Just to put my perspective on the yeast list out there:

To me it's just a curation of posts from folks who have done low oxygen beers utilizing sulfites, and what their experience has been with the yeast strain they used in terms of residual sulfur in the finished beer. I would prefer it not be thought of as an "approved yeast strain list" for low oxygen brewing, and more just a guide of what we've seen reports on and how it played out for those folks (it's a list of isolated observations). It's mainly been populated by the reports from folks on HBT, AHA forum and LOB forum, and in all likelihood is missing several strains that have been reported on. Please consult it with a grain of salt and open-mind, and recognize it's VERY MUCH a work-in-progress. I think the biggest take away from it is: if a yeast strain has potential for sulfur production on it's own then use a very deft hand when adding sulfites to that brew, especially in regards to ale strains. The second biggest take away, from my perspective, is the ppm dosage people have reported because it sure seems clear that some strains are good at certain lower levels where they may not be so good at higher levels.

As far as W34/70, I've seen plenty of folks using this strain (primarily in standard process brewing) who like what it brings to the table. I would not count it out as a viable option. With that said, I've never used it because I feel I have more/better options available in liquid form, but I would not shy away from it (like I have MJ Workhorse :D) if I had it in my yeast stock.
 
Thank you rabeb25 and stpug for your feedback. I will have to see what my LHBS can order in regards to yeast. He orders from BSG, I'm just seeing Fermentis yeasts only.
 
No problem. Bsg carries s23, w34/70, and s-189. I have a few hundred grams of s-189 packaged that I would be happy to sell you for the cost of shipping. I have them in ~50gram packs.
 
Tiber_Brew said:
I plan on sticking with WLP029 - any issue with that strain also? I could dial the SMB way down or omit altogether if there's risk of a sulfur bomb.
Click to expand...

I've been drinking an IPA made with WLP029 and no sulfur issues. See my recent post for what I used for SMB. Have 2 more beers using the yeast that aren't ready yet, an IPA where I changed up the grain bill and a Kolsch I just made yesterday.
 
brewstergalVT said:
I've been drinking an IPA made with WLP029 and no sulfur issues. See my recent post for what I used for SMB. Have 2 more beers using the yeast that aren't ready yet, an IPA where I changed up the grain bill and a Kolsch I just made yesterday.
Click to expand...

Nice! I added you/029 to the list. I couldn't find your post about what dosage for SMB so if you happen to know off-hand then I'll update that as well on the yeast strain list. Also, any follow-up on other wlp029 low oxygen batches you brew would be helpful as well - I only mention this because sometimes sulfur is hidden in big hoppy beers (a little sulfur can even be complementary at low levels in an IPA, IMO).
 
stpug said:
Nice! I added you/029 to the list. I couldn't find your post about what dosage for SMB so if you happen to know off-hand then I'll update that as well on the yeast strain list. Also, any follow-up on other wlp029 low oxygen batches you brew would be helpful as well - I only mention this because sometimes sulfur is hidden in big hoppy beers (a little sulfur can even be complementary at low levels in an IPA, IMO).
Click to expand...

I add one campden tablet crushed in the mash water (boiled & cooled) so for the IPA's it's 25mg/L, for the Kolsch it was 30mg/L. I do sparge and go with a half tablet in the sparge so roughly 10mg/L.

Yes, I've been wondering if there is sulfur under the hops that won't quit. I'll post what I find with the Kolsch when it's ready.
 
giraffe said:
Ok im intrigued. One question though, how do you prevent oxidation during the decoction?
Actually two questions, is a stainless immersion chiller sufficient, or what do you recommend for cooling?
Click to expand...

In Die Bierbrauerei, Vol 2, Narziss and Back released data about oxygen intake during various stages in the process. They suggested strongly to do all transfers from below in a system properly bled with degassed water.

I doubt however, that decoctions will be beneficial to home brewers, especially when considering the downside of excessive wort oxygenation.

For eg the Ayinger brewery almost stopped decoctions all together and their products are quite respectable.

Immersion chillers are perfectly adequate for cooling.

I use an all stainless heat exchanger (incidentally manufactured in Bavaria) in conjunction with a frequency controlled stainless pump -- which speeds up this section in my process a little.

Gut Sud!

IMG_0726.jpg
 
I've done two LoDO batches of Kölsch with WLP029, one at 36.5mg/l, the other at 19mg/l. Both were lightly hopped and neither had any detectable sulfur notes. A great yeast and my favorite for many years. However this strains tendency to flocculate fairly suddenly makes timing to transfer and spund more tricky. The wyeast Kölsch strain seems to be more forgiving in this regard and with a goodly amount of time at 0-2c drops nice and bright.
 
Edelst0ff said:
I use an all stainless heat exchanger (incidentally manufactured in Bavaria) in conjunction with a frequency controlled stainless pump -- which speeds up this section in my process a little.

Gut Sud!
Click to expand...

That looks amazing. Where did procure that?
 
rabeb25 said:
I have used 30ppm and 20ppm with 2565. There was a touch of sulfur with 30, but with 20 it was fantastic. I went 95% pils, 5% carahell ( which isa recipe professional German brewing literature sites).
View attachment 395067
Click to expand...

rabeb25 said:
I wouldn't use carapils, well I mean you can, but it's not going to give you a real flavor contribution. 10% light Munich is not out of place for authentic.
Click to expand...

Seems I was mistaken; I thought carapils and carahell were similar, but after some quick googling, I see that they are not. I'll go with carahell per your recommendation. (Excuse my ignorance - I've not used either before.)
 
Hey no worries! I love carahell, its probably my favorite caramalt.
 
Tiber_Brew said:
Seems I was mistaken; I thought carapils and carahell were similar, but after some quick googling, I see that they are not. I'll go with carahell per your recommendation. (Excuse my ignorance - I've not used either before.)
Click to expand...

I would not disregard Carapils.
 
It occurs to me that in my case to reduce my boil off to around 10% that will be about 1 gallon less total water needed. But that means 1 less gallon of water to rinse the grains. Anyone experience an extract efficiency hit with this? If so how much?
 
thekraken said:
It occurs to me that in my case to reduce my boil off to around 10% that will be about 1 gallon less total water needed. But that means 1 less gallon of water to rinse the grains. Anyone experience an extract efficiency hit with this? If so how much?
Click to expand...

I purposely had to reduce my system efficiency to improve my beers. At my 90% or higher efficiency, I was pulling tannins into my brews. I now reserve about 1/3 of my sparging water volume and plan on topping off my kettle volume as needed with that water. The reduced rinsing with the smaller sparging volume generally leaves my final runnings at about 4 to 5 brix, which is higher than the 2 brix limit that most recommend. I'm still in the 80's with respect to efficiency.

The move to a lower evaporation loss has only improved the situation in my brewing. I wouldn't worry about that aspect too much, but if it significantly affects your efficiency, just add more grain and brew around it. High efficiency does not improve beer.
 
mabrungard said:
I purposely had to reduce my system efficiency to improve my beers. At my 90% or higher efficiency, I was pulling tannins into my brews. I now reserve about 1/3 of my sparging water volume and plan on topping off my kettle volume as needed with that water. The reduced rinsing with the smaller sparging volume generally leaves my final runnings at about 4 to 5 brix, which is higher than the 2 brix limit that most recommend. I'm still in the 80's with respect to efficiency.

The move to a lower evaporation loss has only improved the situation in my brewing. I wouldn't worry about that aspect too much, but if it significantly affects your efficiency, just add more grain and brew around it. High efficiency does not improve beer.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not so much worried about it in that way. I'm just wondering what difference to expect so that I might tweak my recipe this weekend to try and account for it.

Hey mabrungard! You were actually the inspiration for that question, I was going to ask you directly in that thread but it was a little off topic. :mug:
 
TheHairyHop said:
there is evidence that it actually reduces head retention, fwiw
Click to expand...

Can you provide a reference to the evidence you mention?

I am curious as i've found it quite dramatically increases body and head retention, sometimes to the point of being obnoxious.
 
thekraken said:
Well, I'm not so much worried about it in that way. I'm just wondering what difference to expect so that I might tweak my recipe this weekend to try and account for it.

Hey mabrungard! You were actually the inspiration for that question, I was going to ask you directly in that thread but it was a little off topic. :mug:
Click to expand...

Are you batch sparging or fly sparging. For batch sparge the efficiency loss can be quantified. For fly sparging it's not possible to quantify in a general case, since the controlling variables are different for everyone's process. The chart below shows efficiency for a single, equal runnings volume, batch sparge (broken curves.) The X axis is grain bill weight divided by pre-boil volume. Just compare the efficiencies for the same grain bill weight at two different pre-boil volumes.

No Sparge vs Sparge big beers ratio.png

Brew on :mug:
 
No sparge actually. This chart is great, thank you. Any chance you can share the modal you used to generate it?
 
thekraken said:
No sparge actually. This chart is great, thank you. Any chance you can share the modal you used to generate it?
Click to expand...

Give this a look. Let me know if you have questions.

Kind of surprised you haven't seen that chart before. I've lost track of how many times, and where, I've posted it on HBT.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Give this a look. Let me know if you have questions.

Kind of surprised you haven't seen that chart before. I've lost track of how many times, and where, I've posted it on HBT.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

I have seen it! Now that you've posted it it reminds me that I saw you post it the other day. Information overload I suppose.
 
stpug said:
Nice! I added you/029 to the list. I couldn't find your post about what dosage for SMB so if you happen to know off-hand then I'll update that as well on the yeast strain list. Also, any follow-up on other wlp029 low oxygen batches you brew would be helpful as well - I only mention this because sometimes sulfur is hidden in big hoppy beers (a little sulfur can even be complementary at low levels in an IPA, IMO).
Click to expand...

I did a low oxygen Altbier back in the fall using WLP029. 50mg / L was my SMB dosage - no sulfur issues. I did end up with a little bit of acetaldehyde in the finished beer but I think I transferred out the primary and into a keg with spunding valve too early. It was still a really nice beer.
 
So I'm playing around with my electric brew pot trying to dial in to a 10% boil off. I'm running a 12.5 gallon kettle with a 5500 watt element. My batch sizes about 5.25 gallons so I'm aiming to only boil off about 0.6 gallons.

I've found that if I adjust power to about 35% then I lose about 10% in an hour. BUT this is not a boil, I wouldn't even call this a simmer! Is this okay or should I at least have a slight simmer?

My trusty thermapen says the water temp is about 206 to 208F, hotter directly above the element.

Also, if I'm not getting the mixing action of a boil (or at least a simmer) is this a problem?
 
Yea you will want to put a lid on it. I didn't have great luck with my 5500 watt element. I switched to a 3750 watt boil coil. I run that at 47% and with my lid I boil off 7%. I like to hover right around high 211 for my boil temp (I'm in Minnesota) and like to see 1or less srm pick up from the boil. My lid looks like this.
http://www.********************/uncategorized/low-oxygen-brewhouse-reconfiguration/

I have also noticed I had to drop my hop utilization down a bit. But the softer boil is so worth it. TBI/TBA is a real bogey man.
 

Similar threads

J
Best dry yeast for a German Pils?
Replies
12
Views
1K
Dog House Brew
Dog House Brew
K
Added Boil Hops at End By Accident...
Replies
16
Views
843
KookyBrewsky
K
flipster
Hello from the Bavarian alpine foothills
Replies
14
Views
638
flipster
flipster
ghettoworm
Leaky Mash Tun
Replies
20
Views
640
Bobby_M
Bobby_M
beersk
Domestic Ingredients
2
Replies
54
Views
2K
beersk
beersk
Williams Brewing 300

Latest posts

Back
Top